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  • Stephanie Ross
    I found two citations so far describing Russian women as wearing kerchiefs in the book _Rude and Barbarous Kingdom_, ed. by Lloyd E. Berry. I know that the
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 11, 2005
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      I found two citations so far describing Russian women as wearing kerchiefs in the book _Rude and Barbarous Kingdom_, ed. by Lloyd E. Berry. I know that the debate about head kerchiefs is as ambiguous as sarafans. Do you think the Elizabethan version of kerchiefs is substantually different than the modern interpretation? Citations below from Giles Fletcher who lived almost a year in Russia during 1588. He wrote a treatise called "Of the Russe Commonwealth" that was first published in England in 1591, and is included in the _...Barbarous Kingdom_ book.

      He is discussing the clothes of noblewomen , "In summer they go often with kerchiefs of fine white lawn or cambric fastened under the chin with two long tassles pendant, the kerchief spotted and set thick with rich pearl". p244

      In describing the clothing of wives of poor traders, "On their heads they wear caps of some colored stuff, many of velvet or of cloth of gold, but for the most part kerchiefs".


      Any thoughts? Did I manage to find a good enough source of documentation that we can now consider kerchiefs to be period?

      Nadya


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    • Lisa Kies
      X-JumpGate Networks Webmail - Mason City, Iowa: Originating-IP Nadya, Are kerchiefs period? It depends on what you mean by kerchiefs. If you mean the modern
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 12, 2005
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        X-JumpGate Networks Webmail - Mason City, Iowa: Originating-IP

        Nadya,
        Are kerchiefs period? It depends on what you mean by kerchiefs. If you mean
        the modern "babushka" small triangle kerchief tied under the chin (or behind
        the head), then no, you do not have evidence that kerchiefs are period. We
        have Medieval Russian manuscript and religious art depicting women in head
        scarves of a rather different design, which could just as easily be
        the "kerchief" Giles Fletcher was trying to describe.

        I'm not saying that "babushka" kerchiefs are not period. I do not know enough
        about late period Rus garb to say that. (Although I have noticed that they are
        vanishingly rare in the "traditional Russian peasant" costumes I've seen.) I'm
        just saying that Giles isn't giving you the evidence you need to say that they
        are.

        I'm pretty sure an Elizabethan kerchief is not the same as a modern "babushka"
        kerchief.

        Sofya

        Quoting Stephanie Ross <hlaislinn@...>:

        > Do you think the Elizabethan version of kerchiefs is substantually different
        > than the modern interpretation?
        >
        > Citations below from Giles Fletcher...
        >
        > kerchiefs of fine white lawn or cambric fastened under the chin with two long
        > tassles pendant, the kerchief spotted and set thick with rich pearl". p244
        >
        > "On their heads they
        > wear caps... but for
        > the most part kerchiefs".
        >
        > Any thoughts? Did I manage to find a good enough source of documentation that
        > we can now consider kerchiefs to be period?






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      • Justin Griffing
        Ok. This is the closest place I can think of to ask my question and hope that someone on here may have an answer. I am working with a friend on some
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 12, 2005
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          Ok. This is the closest place I can think of to ask my question and hope that someone on here may have an answer. I am working with a friend on some Byzantine court garb that she is making for me and we are trying to identify the pieces. Looking at pictures, it seems that the cuffs on the tunica match the dalmatica. My guess, from studying history of Eastern ecclesiastical vesture, is that these cuffs are actually almost a "vambrace" type, in that they are completely a separate piece from the tunica and thus can be worn with a variety of tunicae. Does anyone know if that is the case or if they were sewn on the tunica?

          Thanks in advance,
          Iustinos

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        • LiudmilaV@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/12/2005 7:58:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hlaislinn@earthlink.net writes: He is discussing the clothes of noblewomen , In summer they go
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 12, 2005
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            In a message dated 7/12/2005 7:58:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
            hlaislinn@... writes:

            He is discussing the clothes of noblewomen , "In summer they go often with
            kerchiefs of fine white lawn or cambric fastened under the chin with two long
            tassles pendant, the kerchief spotted and set thick with rich pearl". p244



            The kerchiefs described in this passage were known in Russian at the time as
            "ubrus" (singular, plural is ubrusy). The pearls went on a rectangular
            applique sewn onto the forehead part of the ubrus, as well as on the ends. These
            were rather long and rectangular, and can be seen on most women in period
            miniatures. There is also a surviving ubrus made by Anastasia Romanovna, first
            wife of Ivan the not yet Terrible.

            Liudmila


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kseniia Smolnianina
            So, if I understand correctly, the rectangular forehead piece is sewn right onto the ubrus? I somehow never understoond this detail! Thanks for the info. Any
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 12, 2005
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              So, if I understand correctly, the rectangular forehead piece is sewn
              right onto the ubrus? I somehow never understoond this detail!
              Thanks for the info.

              Any chance you have a picture of the one made by Anastasia Romanova?
              I'm curious about the dimensions.

              --Kseniia

              On 7/12/05, LiudmilaV@... <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

              > The kerchiefs described in this passage were known in Russian at the time as
              > "ubrus" (singular, plural is ubrusy). The pearls went on a rectangular
              > applique sewn onto the forehead part of the ubrus, as well as on the ends. These
              > were rather long and rectangular, and can be seen on most women in period
              > miniatures. There is also a surviving ubrus made by Anastasia Romanovna, first
              > wife of Ivan the not yet Terrible.


              --
              **********************************
              Lady Kseniia Smolnianina
              Barony of Three Mountains
              Kingdom of An Tir
            • Stephanie Ross
              Ah, I get it! The kerchief mentioned by Fletcher is a generic term for a head wrap, while the Russians wore a specific type of scarf wrapped in certain
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 12, 2005
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                Ah, I get it! The "kerchief" mentioned by Fletcher is a generic term for a head wrap, while the Russians wore a specific type of scarf wrapped in certain styles. I know that the Vikings are often depicted in kerchiefs and that is erroneous, since carvings and jewelry show long headwraps. I was just hoping that maybe the late 1500's might be the time that "babushkas" started being worn, instead of the 1800's, and Fletcher's observations could be taken at face value. Oh well, nice thought....

                Nadya

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              • Tim Nalley
                do you have a cite for Anastasia s ubrus? My own Anastasiia has been pestering me lately about that. I d be eternally grateful! dok ...
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 12, 2005
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                  do you have a cite for Anastasia's ubrus? My own
                  Anastasiia has been pestering me lately about that.
                  I'd be eternally grateful!
                  'dok

                  --- LiudmilaV@... wrote:

                  >
                  > In a message dated 7/12/2005 7:58:34 AM Pacific
                  > Daylight Time,
                  > hlaislinn@... writes:
                  >
                  > He is discussing the clothes of noblewomen , "In
                  > summer they go often with
                  > kerchiefs of fine white lawn or cambric fastened
                  > under the chin with two long
                  > tassles pendant, the kerchief spotted and set thick
                  > with rich pearl". p244
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The kerchiefs described in this passage were known
                  > in Russian at the time as
                  > "ubrus" (singular, plural is ubrusy). The pearls
                  > went on a rectangular
                  > applique sewn onto the forehead part of the ubrus,
                  > as well as on the ends. These
                  > were rather long and rectangular, and can be seen on
                  > most women in period
                  > miniatures. There is also a surviving ubrus made by
                  > Anastasia Romanovna, first
                  > wife of Ivan the not yet Terrible.
                  >
                  > Liudmila
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >




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                • LiudmilaV@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/12/2005 6:23:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mordakus@yahoo.com writes: do you have a cite for Anastasia s ubrus? My own Anastasiia has been
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 12, 2005
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                    In a message dated 7/12/2005 6:23:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    mordakus@... writes:

                    do you have a cite for Anastasia's ubrus? My own
                    Anastasiia has been pestering me lately about that.
                    I'd be eternally grateful!
                    'dok



                    Now I do. It is in the SIG list file section, under Liudmila's Book Finds.
                    _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sig/files/Liudmila%27s%20book%20finds/_
                    (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sig/files/Liudmila's%20book%20finds/)

                    Here are my notes on it, from
                    Iakunina, L. I. Russkoie Shit’ie Zhemchugom (Russian Pearl Embroidery).
                    Iskusstvo, Moscow, 1955.
                    and with extrapolations on the size of the piece based on the photo
                    dimensions and the size of the front applique given by Iakunina:
                    An ubrus that belonged to Tsaritsa Anastasiia Romanovna, wife of Ivan the
                    Terrible (XVIth century), was made of scarlet taffeta 2 meters long. In the
                    front middle part it is adorned with blue silk damask rectangle, 40 cm long
                    and 16 cm wide. This rectangle, “ochel’ie,” is richly embroidered in pearls
                    and gold with enameled or etched inserts. The embroidery runs along the main
                    body of the ubrus towards its ends. The ends themselves are trimmed with the
                    endings made of 36.5 cm of the same blue fabric with slightly different
                    embroidery (Iakunina, p. 74 and Figure 32). Unfortunately, my source does not
                    allow establishing the width of the ubrus, but it has to be wide enough to go
                    all the way down the back of the head, over hair pinned on top (in braids, most
                    likely).
                    Good luck in your attempts. That is my next project, also.
                    Liudmila



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jennifer knox
                    Hi! cuffs were generally seperate and heavily ornamented. they would have been made either of metal or of stiff embroidered and/or jeweled leather. remember
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 13, 2005
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                      Hi! cuffs were generally seperate and heavily ornamented. they would have been made either of metal or of stiff embroidered and/or jeweled leather. remember that ecclesiastical costume was quite different from what lay people wore. if you tell me what century you are working from i can email you the relevant parts of my byzantine costuming class handout (its 80 pages long, i dont think you want the whole thing :-) ), along with some pictures from primary sources.
                      anya


                      Justin Griffing <jm_griffing@...> wrote:
                      Ok. This is the closest place I can think of to ask my question and hope that someone on here may have an answer. I am working with a friend on some Byzantine court garb that she is making for me and we are trying to identify the pieces. Looking at pictures, it seems that the cuffs on the tunica match the dalmatica. My guess, from studying history of Eastern ecclesiastical vesture, is that these cuffs are actually almost a "vambrace" type, in that they are completely a separate piece from the tunica and thus can be worn with a variety of tunicae. Does anyone know if that is the case or if they were sewn on the tunica?

                      Thanks in advance,
                      Iustinos

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                    • Justin Griffing
                      Thanks for the reply! Everything I ve read has suggested that ecclesiastical vesture actually developed from the court garb of the Byzantine court. While this
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 13, 2005
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                        Thanks for the reply!

                        Everything I've read has suggested that ecclesiastical vesture actually developed from the court garb of the Byzantine court. While this may not be true of things such as the epitrachelion and zone, it seems true of the stikherion (which seems identical to the tunica), cuffs, and sakko (later development, but very similar to the court dalmatica). I could see the phelonion as a development from the Byzantine cape.

                        As to your class handout, I'll gladly take the whole thing, actually :-), but the 12th-13th c. is what is most pertinent.

                        Thanks for the reply.

                        Iustinos

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                      • Stephanie M. Ross
                        I would love the whole thing!! Could I send you some money to cover printing and shipping, and have you snail-mail me a copy? Thanks, Nadya [Clip your posts.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 13, 2005
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                          I would love the whole thing!! Could I send you some money to cover
                          printing and shipping, and have you snail-mail me a copy?

                          Thanks,
                          Nadya

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                        • Xristina Viaceslavova
                          ... Have you tried posting your question to the SCA Byzantine list? They are also a good source of information - though I would suggest that you add in the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 13, 2005
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                            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Justin Griffing <jm_griffing@y...> wrote:

                            > Ok. This is the closest place I can think of to ask my question and
                            > hope that someone on here may have an answer.

                            Have you tried posting your question to the SCA Byzantine list? They
                            are also a good source of information - though I would suggest that
                            you add in the time period you are actually looking at for your garb
                            because, as with many places, there are immense changes in the
                            clothing over time.

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCAbyzantine/

                            Hope this helps
                            Xristina
                          • L. Williams
                            Ummmm, Anya? I d loved to get a copy of the whole handout. Any chance of that? I d be happy to send somethign to copy copying/postage costs. Or, I have a DSL
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 13, 2005
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                              Ummmm, Anya? I'd loved to get a copy of the whole handout. Any chance of that? I'd be happy to send somethign to copy copying/postage costs. Or, I have a DSL internet service, if you have a scanner you could email it? Huh? Huh? Pretty please?!
                              LLisa W.
                              my byzantine costuming class handout (its 80 pages long, i dont think you want the whole thing :-) ), along with some pictures from primary sources.
                              anya



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lisa Kies
                              X-JumpGate Networks Webmail - Mason City, Iowa: Originating-IP Stamerov states that the rectangular ubrus was 2m by 40-50cm. I suspect he was refering to
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 13, 2005
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                                X-JumpGate Networks Webmail - Mason City, Iowa: Originating-IP

                                Stamerov states that the rectangular ubrus was 2m by 40-50cm. I suspect he was
                                refering to Tsaritsa Anastasiya's surviving ubrus. I've made a couple of
                                _very_ simple ubrusy with these dimensions (approx. 2yd x 2ft), and they seem
                                to work well, although I'm still working out the best way to wrap them.

                                Stamerov, K.K. Translated by Tatiana Nikolaevna Tumanova. An Illustrated
                                History of Costume. Avenger, Kiev, 1978.

                                In Service,
                                Sofya la Rus

                                Quoting LiudmilaV@...:

                                > An ubrus that belonged to Tsaritsa Anastasiia Romanovna, wife of Ivan the
                                > Terrible (XVIth century), was made of scarlet taffeta 2 meters long.
                                >
                                > Unfortunately, my source does
                                > not
                                > allow establishing the width of the ubrus





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                              • jennifer knox
                                hi! wow, i didnt realize that there was so much interest. how about i upload it to the group page? im in the middle of a monster embroidery project but ill
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 18, 2005
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                                  hi!
                                  wow, i didnt realize that there was so much interest. how about i upload it to the group page?
                                  im in the middle of a monster embroidery project but ill have time to do it in a few weeks? i can also put up the source for my 15th century moldavian dress that i promised to some of you a while back. my only concern is that it includes tons of photocopies of primary sources (illuminations, wall paintings, etc) and that putting them online would be violating copywright. so ill keep the pictures up for a week or two so everyone can print them and then maybe the moderator can take them off after that time?
                                  anya


                                  "L. Williams" <zeninegits@...> wrote:
                                  Ummmm, Anya? I'd loved to get a copy of the whole handout. Any chance of that? I'd be happy to send somethign to copy copying/postage costs. Or, I have a DSL internet service, if you have a scanner you could email it? Huh? Huh? Pretty please?!
                                  LLisa W.
                                  my byzantine costuming class handout (its 80 pages long, i dont think you want the whole thing :-) ), along with some pictures from primary sources.
                                  anya



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                                • L. Williams
                                  Sounds like a wonderful plan! Just let us know when! Thanks, Lisa W. in MT
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jul 18, 2005
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                                    Sounds like a wonderful plan! Just let us know when!
                                    Thanks,
                                    Lisa W. in MT
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