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14600Re: Re: [sig] Question about Boyar's

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  • V.D. Novach
    Nov 3, 2009
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      But I beleive you are fogettig the definition of a knight as a horseback warrior. Not as a noble. While knights were sometimes nobles and in Western Europe almost singularily as knights were made nobles by kings for services rendered. A noble is not even majorily a Knight. Boyars were not a brod term it was  term used particularily in RUSSIA, RUMANIA, GERMANY and POLAND

      --- On Tue, 11/3/09, jpkowal@... <jpkowal@...> wrote:


      From: jpkowal@... <jpkowal@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: [sig] Question about Boyar's
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 10:13 PM


       



      Please, Remember the answer. In "general terms Yes". We are talking about a broad swath of History over many different lands. Under such a sweeping generalization I will stick with my Yes. I can find examples in the West of "well-to-do- merchants" being accepted as nobility as well. Does that invalidate the general King to Knight relationship. No it does not. Neither does it in the East.

      The Nobility often is divided between Greater and Lessor in station. Does that invalidate the general King to Knight relationship? Again No it does not.

      The original Warbands that travelled through Eastern Europes river systems were as much Traders/Merchants as they were Warbands. Does this early genesis invalidate the King to Knight relationship? again the answer is No.

      Now if You want to break it down into smaller time periods, and more local geographies then we could try and make the No arguement.

      AVL

      > From: "V.D. Novach" <vdnovach@yahoo. com>
      > Date: 2009/11/03 Tue PM 09:19:12 CST
      > To: sig@yahoogroups. com
      > Subject: Re: [sig] Question about Boyar's
      >
      > Actually the answer would be NO, The Boyar were the Nobles of area as well as well-to-do merchants, anyone capable of owning their own land. They were not knights.
      >
      > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, jpkowal@mts. net <jpkowal@mts. net> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: jpkowal@mts. net <jpkowal@mts. net>
      > Subject: Re: [sig] Question about Boyar's
      > To: sig@yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 8:42 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Greetings;
      >
      > In general terms the answer would be Yes.
      >
      > If by a Knight You mean a warrior in service to a King. The analogy is roughly correct remembering that the King and Knight relationship evolved from the earlier relationship of a Warband Leader and His Trusted Warriors.
      >
      > The Kiev-Rus had the Grand Prince (King) to whom was attached His Druzhini(?)/ Warband comprised of the Boyars (Knights).
      >
      > Were they exactly the same. No. But they serve similar purposes Yes.
      >
      > You have to be careful not to simply accept all concepts of Chivalry and Knighthood and transpose them onto the East from the West.
      >
      > Does that help?
      > AVL
      >
      > > From: christopher chastain <ckchastain@ hotmail. com>
      > > Date: 2009/11/03 Tue PM 04:16:34 CST
      > > To: Slavic Interest group <sig@yahoogroups. com>
      > > Subject: [sig] Question about Boyar's
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I have been asked by several folks in my shire if the Boyar's were the Russian version of the western medieval knights. When I do a online search about them from the way they are described they do seem to fit into this mold. My Russian knowledge is growing but I will freely admit this is a area were I need to ask questions. From what I have been able to gather on them, Boyars wielded considerable power through their military support of the Kievan princes. Power and prestige of many of them, however, soon came to depend almost completely on service to the state, family history of service and to a lesser extent, landownership. The boyars occupied the highest state offices and through a council (Duma) advised the Grand Duke. They received extensive grants of land and, as members of the Boyars' Duma, were the major legislators of Kievan Rus'. To me this sounds extremely like a western knight, can anyone explain to me where the difference lies and if they
      > are similar would'nt that be a good candidate for a alternate title for knight?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yours in Humble Service,
      > > Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
      > > Chivalry, Honor, Duty, Not just words but a choice!
      > >
      > >
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