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RE: two typani why?Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani

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  • Adrian Drover
    From: Paul Clark Adrian, I get first shot at the tune title of Chugging Along With The Celli ... Fair enough, Paul. I ll use It Must Be Celli ( cause jam
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 1, 2011
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      From: Paul Clark

      Adrian, I get first shot at the tune title of "Chugging Along With The
      Celli"
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


      Fair enough, Paul. I'll use "It Must Be Celli ('cause jam don't shake like
      that)".

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM7o0FxjWJo

      A.
    • Wally DePue
      A, you and Paul have inspired my next song: I Want Some Hot Celli! Wooli
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 1, 2011
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        A, you and Paul have inspired my next song:  "I Want Some Hot Celli!"

        Wooli


        On Mar 1, 2011, at 3:00 AM, Adrian Drover wrote:

         



        From: Paul Clark

        Adrian, I get first shot at the tune title of "Chugging Along With The
        Celli"
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

        Fair enough, Paul. I'll use "It Must Be Celli ('cause jam don't shake like
        that)".

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM7o0FxjWJo

        A.


      • ludwig
        Not only that timpani and trumpets sound great together especially when Organ is scored with them. lvb ... From: Adrian Drover Subject:
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 1, 2011
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          Not only that timpani and trumpets sound great together especially when Organ is scored with them.
          lvb

          --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Adrian Drover <ii-v-i@...> wrote:

          From: Adrian Drover <ii-v-i@...>
          Subject: RE: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani
          To: sibelius-list@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 2:50 AM

           


          From: Kim Patrick Clow

          I wonder why timpani were only used in sets of two during the
          baroque/classical periods, from a historical perspective?
          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

          Same reason why some composers rarely gave natural trumpets anything to play
          apart from tonic and dominant? Trumpets and drums seemed to work in unison.

          A.


        • ludwig
          Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani ranging in size from 36
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 1, 2011
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            Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani ranging in size from 36 inches up to about 6 inches covering an almost 3 octave range. However, the usual standard  of music is for 4 or 5 except in music of the classical and early romantic age.
            lvb

            --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Phil Read <philread@...> wrote:

            From: Phil Read <philread@...>
            Subject: Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani
            To: sibelius-list@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 2:10 AM

             
            I would guess it was to add an extra note. By the way Beethoven used a tuning A and Eb for a pair of them. Berlioz,Spohr,Schonberg,Stravinskyand Bliss all used more than three.
             
            Phil
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 2:48 PM
            Subject: Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani

             
            On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Phil Read <philread@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Kettledrum is certainly not a slang term. The word is listed on the two volume Shorter Oxford as originating in the 1500s. The Kettledrum was imported into Europe nd England around that time and used in military bands - sometimes even on horseback with one slung on either side. The same book lists the Italian term as Tympani and the French Timbales as well as the German Pauken. The Grove dictionary lists them as Arabian in origin having being introduced into Europe in the 13th century. The name then in England was Nakers (Our wits on the list will have  a ball with this word -- Pun intended). This word comes from the Turkish Naqquareh.
            >

            I wonder why timpani were only used in sets of two during the
            baroque/classical periods, from a historical perspective? Was cost of
            the instruments? Tuning issues that weren't finally worked out until
            the baroque? I know Christoph Graupner routinely used several timpani
            in cantatas and his symphonies (and in one symphony he uses 7!), but
            he is the exception versus the rule.

            Thanks
            Kim Patrick Clow


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          • John Howell
            ... And then there s rock- n-roll timpani, written for auxiliary percussionists in commercial show music, which assumes instant pedal changes of pitch and in
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 1, 2011
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              At 3:27 PM -0800 3/1/11, ludwig wrote:
              >Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to
              >do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani
              >ranging in size from 36 inches up to about 6 inches covering an
              >almost 3 octave range. However, the usual standard of music is for
              >4 or 5 except in music of the classical and early romantic age.
              >lvb

              And then there's rock-'n-roll timpani, written for auxiliary
              percussionists in commercial show music, which assumes instant pedal
              changes of pitch and in fact requires them, usually written for just
              2 drums of the usual pair sizes (26" and 29"). For our summer
              musicals we have a rather small pit, and have never been able to fit
              more than 2 drums into it, so it's up to the player to make whatever
              adjustments are necessary.

              When my college show ensemble toured, we carried a single medium
              timpano and both of us who arranged for the group were happy to use
              it within that limitation because the effect was just so GOOD when it
              was used. We also carried a full set of chimes. (We had tried one
              of the electronic "timpani" previously, and while the individual
              strike sounds were quite excellent it was impossible to produce a
              roll so it wasn't much use.)

              John


              --
              John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
              Virginia Tech Department of Music
              College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
              Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
              Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
              (mailto:John.Howell@...)
              http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

              "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
              of jazz musicians.
            • Adrian Drover
              From: ludwig Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani ranging in
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 2, 2011
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                From: ludwig

                Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani ranging in size from 36 inches up to about 6 inches covering an almost 3 octave range. However, the usual standard of music is for 4 or 5 except in music of the classical and early romantic age.
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


                Jus' curious, Luddy. Your subject heading includes the words "tympanum" & "tympani" spelt with a "y", yet in the main body of your message you spell "timpani" with an "i". Do you have any plans to standardize your spellings, or will you settle for kettle drums?

                I once used timps for a sig tune I wrote for a TV current affairs program (in the days before synth yuck). When the percussionist saw his part he told me it would require 5 drums which meant he was entitled to an extra session fee for doubling. As there were only 3 pedal timps available in the recording studio I had to convince him that the part could quite well be played on just 3 drums and for a flat session fee.

                A.
              • ludwig
                Thanks for enlightening me as I never imagine that Timpani would be used for Rock n Roll given the disdain that many Rock n Roll fans have for fine arts
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 2, 2011
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                  Thanks for enlightening me as I never imagine that Timpani would be used for Rock n' Roll given the disdain that many Rock n Roll fans have for fine arts music but Rock n' Roll is generally simply music with a limited vocal range (or use to be) like so-called country and western music is. So therefore it does meet  Helmholtz's rule that supposedly all music has a common route within the particular composition and that is the Dominant root and the Tonic Root.
                   
                  FYI for those of you who are not very scientifically orientated---Helmholtz was a 19th century physicists with a deep interest in sound, music, how it was created and why we have sounds at all when the action to make them occurs. His classic work is On the Sensations of Tone. (Eng. translation  from German of a very lenghty title).  He gets into Organ Pipes et al.  However, I personally prefer Aristide Cavaille-Colls writings on this subject because they particularly are about the Organ.
                   
                  lvb

                  --- On Tue, 3/1/11, John Howell <John.Howell@...> wrote:

                  From: John Howell <John.Howell@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani
                  To: sibelius-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 11:11 PM

                   
                  At 3:27 PM -0800 3/1/11, ludwig wrote:
                  >Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to
                  >do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani
                  >ranging in size from 36 inches up to about 6 inches covering an
                  >almost 3 octave range. However, the usual standard of music is for
                  >4 or 5 except in music of the classical and early romantic age.
                  >lvb

                  And then there's rock-'n-roll timpani, written for auxiliary
                  percussionists in commercial show music, which assumes instant pedal
                  changes of pitch and in fact requires them, usually written for just
                  2 drums of the usual pair sizes (26" and 29"). For our summer
                  musicals we have a rather small pit, and have never been able to fit
                  more than 2 drums into it, so it's up to the player to make whatever
                  adjustments are necessary.

                  When my college show ensemble toured, we carried a single medium
                  timpano and both of us who arranged for the group were happy to use
                  it within that limitation because the effect was just so GOOD when it
                  was used. We also carried a full set of chimes. (We had tried one
                  of the electronic "timpani" previously, and while the individual
                  strike sounds were quite excellent it was impossible to produce a
                  roll so it wasn't much use.)

                  John

                  --
                  John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
                  Virginia Tech Department of Music
                  College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
                  Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
                  Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
                  (mailto:John.Howell@...)
                  http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

                  "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
                  of jazz musicians.

                • Kevin Yeates
                  Luddy, Thanks for enlightening me as I never imagine that Timpani would be used for Rock n Roll given the disdain that many Rock n Roll fans have for fine
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 2, 2011
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                    Luddy,

                    "Thanks for enlightening me as I never imagine that Timpani would be used for Rock n' Roll given the disdain that many Rock n Roll fans have for fine arts music but Rock n' Roll is generally simply music with a limited vocal range (or use to be) like so-called country and western music is. So therefore it does meet  Helmholtz's rule that supposedly all music has a common route within the particular composition and that is the Dominant root and the Tonic Root."

                    You're going to have to explain this one for me.

                    Kevin Yeates
                    Vancouver, Canada

                    --- On Wed, 3/2/11, ludwig <ludwigvan_beethoven@...> wrote:

                    From: ludwig <ludwigvan_beethoven@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani
                    To: sibelius-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 11:25 PM



                    Thanks for enlightening me as I never imagine that Timpani would be used for Rock n' Roll given the disdain that many Rock n Roll fans have for fine arts music but Rock n' Roll is generally simply music with a limited vocal range (or use to be) like so-called country and western music is. So therefore it does meet  Helmholtz's rule that supposedly all music has a common route within the particular composition and that is the Dominant root and the Tonic Root.
                     
                    FYI for those of you who are not very scientifically orientated---Helmholtz was a 19th century physicists with a deep interest in sound, music, how it was created and why we have sounds at all when the action to make them occurs. His classic work is On the Sensations of Tone. (Eng. translation  from German of a very lenghty title).  He gets into Organ Pipes et al.  However, I personally prefer Aristide Cavaille-Colls writings on this subject because they particularly are about the Organ.
                     
                    lvb

                    --- On Tue, 3/1/11, John Howell <John.Howell@...> wrote:

                    From: John Howell <John.Howell@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani
                    To: sibelius-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 11:11 PM

                     
                    At 3:27 PM -0800 3/1/11, ludwig wrote:
                    >Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to
                    >do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani
                    >ranging in size from 36 inches up to about 6 inches covering an
                    >almost 3 octave range. However, the usual standard of music is for
                    >4 or 5 except in music of the classical and early romantic age.
                    >lvb

                    And then there's rock-'n-roll timpani, written for auxiliary
                    percussionists in commercial show music, which assumes instant pedal
                    changes of pitch and in fact requires them, usually written for just
                    2 drums of the usual pair sizes (26" and 29"). For our summer
                    musicals we have a rather small pit, and have never been able to fit
                    more than 2 drums into it, so it's up to the player to make whatever
                    adjustments are necessary.

                    When my college show ensemble toured, we carried a single medium
                    timpano and both of us who arranged for the group were happy to use
                    it within that limitation because the effect was just so GOOD when it
                    was used. We also carried a full set of chimes. (We had tried one
                    of the electronic "timpani" previously, and while the individual
                    strike sounds were quite excellent it was impossible to produce a
                    roll so it wasn't much use.)

                    John

                    --
                    John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
                    Virginia Tech Department of Music
                    College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
                    Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
                    Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
                    (mailto:John.Howell@...)
                    http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

                    "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
                    of jazz musicians.




                  • Raymond Horton
                    Well, the term is rock n roll timpani, regardless of the musical genre. It s a term timp players use to describe a part with constant pedaling, following the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 2, 2011
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                      Well, the term is "rock n roll timpani," regardless of the musical genre.  It's a term timp players use to describe a part with constant pedaling, following the bass line with little regard for the nature of the instrument.  I've heard the term many times.  


                      Raymond Horton
                      Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
                      Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
                      Composer, Arranger




                      On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Kevin Yeates <kyeates@...> wrote:
                       

                      Luddy,

                      "Thanks for enlightening me as I never imagine that Timpani would be used for Rock n' Roll given the disdain that many Rock n Roll fans have for fine arts music but Rock n' Roll is generally simply music with a limited vocal range (or use to be) like so-called country and western music is. So therefore it does meet  Helmholtz's rule that supposedly all music has a common route within the particular composition and that is the Dominant root and the Tonic Root."

                      You're going to have to explain this one for me.

                      Kevin Yeates
                      Vancouver, Canada

                      --- On Wed, 3/2/11, ludwig <ludwigvan_beethoven@...> wrote:

                      From: ludwig <ludwigvan_beethoven@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani
                      To: sibelius-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 11:25 PM



                      Thanks for enlightening me as I never imagine that Timpani would be used for Rock n' Roll given the disdain that many Rock n Roll fans have for fine arts music but Rock n' Roll is generally simply music with a limited vocal range (or use to be) like so-called country and western music is. So therefore it does meet  Helmholtz's rule that supposedly all music has a common route within the particular composition and that is the Dominant root and the Tonic Root.
                       
                      FYI for those of you who are not very scientifically orientated---Helmholtz was a 19th century physicists with a deep interest in sound, music, how it was created and why we have sounds at all when the action to make them occurs. His classic work is On the Sensations of Tone. (Eng. translation  from German of a very lenghty title).  He gets into Organ Pipes et al.  However, I personally prefer Aristide Cavaille-Colls writings on this subject because they particularly are about the Organ.
                       
                      lvb

                      --- On Tue, 3/1/11, John Howell <John.Howell@...> wrote:

                      From: John Howell <John.Howell@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sibelius-list] tympanum vs tympani
                      To: sibelius-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 11:11 PM

                       
                      At 3:27 PM -0800 3/1/11, ludwig wrote:
                      >Beethoven enlarged the literature for timpani and gave them more to
                      >do than beat out rhythms. Today, we use as many as 8 -10 timpani
                      >ranging in size from 36 inches up to about 6 inches covering an
                      >almost 3 octave range. However, the usual standard of music is for
                      >4 or 5 except in music of the classical and early romantic age.
                      >lvb

                      And then there's rock-'n-roll timpani, written for auxiliary
                      percussionists in commercial show music, which assumes instant pedal
                      changes of pitch and in fact requires them, usually written for just
                      2 drums of the usual pair sizes (26" and 29"). For our summer
                      musicals we have a rather small pit, and have never been able to fit
                      more than 2 drums into it, so it's up to the player to make whatever
                      adjustments are necessary.

                      When my college show ensemble toured, we carried a single medium
                      timpano and both of us who arranged for the group were happy to use
                      it within that limitation because the effect was just so GOOD when it
                      was used. We also carried a full set of chimes. (We had tried one
                      of the electronic "timpani" previously, and while the individual
                      strike sounds were quite excellent it was impossible to produce a
                      roll so it wasn't much use.)

                      John

                      --
                      John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
                      Virginia Tech Department of Music
                      College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
                      Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
                      Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
                      (mailto:John.Howell@...)
                      http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

                      "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
                      of jazz musicians.





                    • John Howell
                      ... Exactly. The percussionist who used the term to me was on call to play tours with such as Henry Mancini, Andy Williams, John Denver, etc. etc. etc. This
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 2, 2011
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                        At 9:55 PM -0500 3/2/11, Raymond Horton wrote:
                        >Well, the term is "rock n roll timpani," regardless of the musical
                        >genre. It's a term timp players use to describe a part with constant
                        >pedaling, following the bass line with little regard for the nature
                        >of the instrument. I've heard the term many times.

                        Exactly. The percussionist who used the term to me was on call to
                        play tours with such as Henry Mancini, Andy Williams, John Denver,
                        etc. etc. etc. This was in the late '60s and '70s, and a lot of
                        Midwest tour orchestras were contracted out of Bloomington, Indiana,
                        using both union professionals and top notch students from the
                        University (but only those with union cards). I happened to be in
                        the right place at the right time with the right credentials to play
                        some of those tours.

                        John


                        --
                        John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
                        Virginia Tech Department of Music
                        College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
                        Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
                        Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
                        (mailto:John.Howell@...)
                        http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

                        "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
                        of jazz musicians.
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