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Re: [shinlist] onenju

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  • Clifton Ong
    Rick, i have to agree with Christine, your tone was a little overboard here. Gassho, Clifton ... ===== Gassho, Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu) Email:
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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      Rick, i have to agree with Christine, your tone was a
      little overboard here.
      Gassho,
      Clifton

      --- Christine Homitsu White <homitsu@...>
      wrote:
      > Have you got an anger problem pal? The minister
      > suggested it when I wrote
      > him for advice and he didn't say anything about
      > counting, just to use it as
      > a mnemonic device. Since Rennyo Shonin said "Praying
      > without a nenju is
      > like grabbing at the Buddha" I thought I'd like to
      > get it right. Waiting
      > for your apology-chw
      >
      >
      > At 11:18 AM 12/8/03 -0500, you wrote:
      > > >Hi-I'm familiar with Buddhist malas in general
      > but am seeking info on
      > > >the Shin kind: how many beads does one usually
      > have? Any special
      > > >length? Any info would be gratefully
      > received-thanks-chw
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >What's more important, counting how many beads in
      > your onenju or
      > >attaining birth in the Pure Land?
      > >
      > >Sheesh!
      > >
      > >in gassho,
      > >Rick
      > >--
      > >
      > >
      > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > >shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >


      =====
      Gassho,
      Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

      Email: sanath_sg@...

      Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

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    • Richard St. Clair
      Dear chw, Pal ? Do *you* have an anger problem? LOL. Now let s stop the nonsense and get serious. Fyi, Rennyo was a religionist and was into formalism. He
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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        Dear chw,
        "Pal"? Do *you* have an anger problem? LOL. Now let's stop the
        nonsense and get serious.

        Fyi, Rennyo was a religionist and was into formalism. He was
        interested in establishing Jodo Shinshu as a formal sect, with all
        the trappings that entailed. I am more interested in the simple ways
        of the myokonin, and Shinran's quiet and unassuming spirituality. I
        doubt Shinran would make a big deal out of how many beads were in a
        nenju. I think it is unfortunate that Jodo Shinshu is encumbered by
        a lot of procedural nonsense like ceremonies, beads, and incense. It
        resembles Roman Catholicism.

        I'm reminded of a story about a myokonin (though he wasn't designated
        such at the time), who was without shelter and came to sleep in a
        Shin temple. The priest told him to get out. He answered, "This is
        my home. Where is yours?"

        gassho,
        Rick

        >Have you got an anger problem pal? The minister suggested it when I wrote
        >him for advice and he didn't say anything about counting, just to use it as
        >a mnemonic device. Since Rennyo Shonin said "Praying without a nenju is
        >like grabbing at the Buddha" I thought I'd like to get it right. Waiting
        >for your apology-chw
        >
        >
        >At 11:18 AM 12/8/03 -0500, you wrote:
        >> >Hi-I'm familiar with Buddhist malas in general but am seeking info on
        >> >the Shin kind: how many beads does one usually have? Any special
        >> >length? Any info would be gratefully received-thanks-chw
        >> >
        >>
        >>
        >>What's more important, counting how many beads in your onenju or
        >>attaining birth in the Pure Land?
        >>
        >>Sheesh!
        >>
        >>in gassho,
        >>Rick
        >>--
        >>
        >>
        >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >>shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        --
        Richard St. Clair
        Office Assistant
        Information Services & Technology
        W92-110
        tel.: 617 - 253-1514
        fax: 617 - 258-8736
      • Richard St. Clair
        ... Clifton, See my latest message. No need to make a federal case out of this. Rick --
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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          >Rick, i have to agree with Christine, your tone was a
          >little overboard here.
          >Gassho,
          >Clifton

          Clifton,
          See my latest message. No need to make a federal case out of this.
          Rick

          --
        • Jim
          I agree with Richard here...beads are just religious props. If you feel you need them, use them but it does not matter one iota the number of beads they
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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            I agree with Richard here...beads are just religious
            props. If you feel you need them, use them but it does
            not matter one iota the number of beads they possess.
            And if you dont need them, then dont its still "all
            good."

            Yes, jodoshinshu needs to return to its roots in
            shinran's experiance and cast away the layers of
            ritualism, and funeral buddhism, which have
            accumulated over the years. There was a good reason
            that Pure Land ispired peasants set fire to Buddhist
            temples during the Middle ages in China, Korea and
            Japan.

            in gassho,

            jim davis

            --- "Richard St. Clair" <stclair@...> wrote:
            > Dear chw,
            > "Pal"? Do *you* have an anger problem? LOL. Now
            > let's stop the
            > nonsense and get serious.
            >
            > Fyi, Rennyo was a religionist and was into
            > formalism. He was
            > interested in establishing Jodo Shinshu as a formal
            > sect, with all
            > the trappings that entailed. I am more interested
            > in the simple ways
            > of the myokonin, and Shinran's quiet and unassuming
            > spirituality. I
            > doubt Shinran would make a big deal out of how many
            > beads were in a
            > nenju. I think it is unfortunate that Jodo Shinshu
            > is encumbered by
            > a lot of procedural nonsense like ceremonies, beads,
            > and incense. It
            > resembles Roman Catholicism.
            >
            > I'm reminded of a story about a myokonin (though he
            > wasn't designated
            > such at the time), who was without shelter and came
            > to sleep in a
            > Shin temple. The priest told him to get out. He
            > answered, "This is
            > my home. Where is yours?"
            >
            > gassho,
            > Rick
            >
            > >Have you got an anger problem pal? The minister
            > suggested it when I wrote
            > >him for advice and he didn't say anything about
            > counting, just to use it as
            > >a mnemonic device. Since Rennyo Shonin said
            > "Praying without a nenju is
            > >like grabbing at the Buddha" I thought I'd like to
            > get it right. Waiting
            > >for your apology-chw
            > >
            > >
            > >At 11:18 AM 12/8/03 -0500, you wrote:
            > >> >Hi-I'm familiar with Buddhist malas in general
            > but am seeking info on
            > >> >the Shin kind: how many beads does one usually
            > have? Any special
            > >> >length? Any info would be gratefully
            > received-thanks-chw
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>What's more important, counting how many beads in
            > your onenju or
            > >>attaining birth in the Pure Land?
            > >>
            > >>Sheesh!
            > >>
            > >>in gassho,
            > >>Rick
            > >>--
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >>shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            > --
            > Richard St. Clair
            > Office Assistant
            > Information Services & Technology
            > W92-110
            > tel.: 617 - 253-1514
            > fax: 617 - 258-8736
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


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          • homitsu
            Richard and the other guy-So you re saying I should trust your opinions, opinions of people I ve never met and could be anybody, over those of a minister I
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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              Richard and the other guy-So you're saying I should trust your
              opinions, opinions of people I've never met and could be anybody,
              over those of a minister I know and trust? You need to get away from
              the keyboard and learn some social skills. I was asking a question
              that had absolutely nothing to do with your opinion an everything to
              do with beginning a new part of my spiritual development. I know all
              about the history and don't need your reinterpretation of it. I'm
              remembering now why I unsubscribed to other lists now, thought I
              could avoid the usual unpleasantness-guess that was a mistake.
            • Richard St. Clair
              ... Dear chw: The other guy is Jim Davis, who has organized and led a Jodo Shinshu group in Missouri for many years. I value his opinions highly. No one was
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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                > Richard and the other guy-So you're saying I should trust your
                >opinions, opinions of people I've never met and could be anybody,
                >over those of a minister I know and trust?>>

                Dear chw:

                The "other guy" is Jim Davis, who has organized and led a Jodo
                Shinshu group in Missouri for many years. I value his opinions
                highly.

                No one was asking you to trust my opinion. This is an electronic
                forum, and it is assumed people will express their opinions. Things
                can even get quite heated. It is expected that there will be
                disagreements from time to time. I do not believe I expressed my
                opinions in an egregious manner, though it has become clear that you
                were offended. I am glad you have a good relationship with a Shin
                minister. That can make all the difference.

                > You need to get away from
                >the keyboard and learn some social skills.

                Perhaps so. I think we can all stand some improvement in this area.

                > I was asking a question
                >that had absolutely nothing to do with your opinion an eve

                I am sorry if I offended you. Personally, *I* get impatient when
                people spend what I think is a lot of time worrying about
                formalities. But that's my problem.

                >I know all
                >about the history and don't need your reinterpretation of it.

                As I said, you can expect any variety of opinions to be stated on
                this forum. I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. I didn't
                realize you were so well versed in Shinshu history. The nature of
                your question led me to believe otherwise. I merely wished to divert
                your attention from formalities to spiritualities. I now see that
                was a mistake.

                >I'm
                >remembering now why I unsubscribed to other lists now, thought I
                >could avoid the usual unpleasantness-guess that was a mistake.

                Unpleasantness is in the eye of the beholder. Again, I am sorry if I
                caused you discomfort. Perhaps electronic forums are not the way for
                you to go if you are sensitive to opinions contrary to your own.

                gassho,
                Rick

                >
                >
                >
                >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                >shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • hpl_fan
                ... from ... to ... all ... homistsu, I m afraid that you need to calm down and see the reality of the situation. I was offended myself at Richard s initial
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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                  --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "homitsu" <homitsu@s...> wrote:
                  > Richard and the other guy-So you're saying I should trust your
                  > opinions, opinions of people I've never met and could be anybody,
                  > over those of a minister I know and trust? You need to get away
                  from
                  > the keyboard and learn some social skills. I was asking a question
                  > that had absolutely nothing to do with your opinion an everything
                  to
                  > do with beginning a new part of my spiritual development. I know
                  all
                  > about the history and don't need your reinterpretation of it. I'm
                  > remembering now why I unsubscribed to other lists now, thought I
                  > could avoid the usual unpleasantness-guess that was a mistake.

                  homistsu, I'm afraid that you need to calm down and see the reality
                  of the situation. I was offended myself at Richard's initial
                  repsponse as o-nenju are an important part of my personal practice.
                  But it is not because they provide some ritual for me, but rather
                  that they provide me with a reminder of diffent aspects of the
                  Dharma, all of which remind me to be more mindfull in my hearing the
                  Amida's infinite light. Richard was reacting to the concept of
                  ritualized approaches to the Dharma, not to your personal practice.
                  I think both side of this could have been more compasionate and
                  constructive.

                  As to the original question that started all of this, there are
                  several traditional forms of o-juzu but o-nenju are for your
                  personal connection to the Amida. Ask the Amida what form your
                  practice should take, given an understanding of what has come
                  before. I think we can all benefit from that approach.
                • Doreen Kamada-Fujii
                  ... on ... *looks at the other replies, and blinks* Wow. Ummmm... Quite honestly, I don t think there IS a usual number of beads for what I ve seen called
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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                    --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "homitsu" <homitsu@s...> wrote:
                    > Hi-I'm familiar with Buddhist malas in general but am seeking info
                    on
                    > the Shin kind: how many beads does one usually have? Any special
                    > length? Any info would be gratefully received-thanks-chw

                    *looks at the other replies, and blinks* Wow. Ummmm...

                    Quite honestly, I don't think there IS a 'usual' number of beads for
                    what I've seen called the 'half' ojuzu, which is what I generally see
                    at BCA temples. The number of beads in addition to the oyadama
                    (large bead with three holes) and two side beads more depends on the
                    _size_ of the beads used, and how large the ojuzu needs to be to
                    complete the circle around the user's hands; I'm sure if I was to
                    gather up all the ojuzu in the house, I'd find different numbers of
                    beads in each of them, depending upon if it's a woman's, man's, or
                    child's ojuzu.

                    When you get into the elastic wrist ojuzu, that clouds the issue even
                    more: the one I wear all the time has a long oyadama bead with the
                    kanji characters for 'namuamidabutsu', two 'side' beads, and
                    11 'other' beads interspersed between them.

                    I'd have to say that other than the 'basic' form: oyadama and two
                    side/parent beads...the number of 'other' beads really doesn't
                    matter, but just depends upon size of bead and finished ojuzu. After
                    all, our DS kids make these all the time as craft projects, and those
                    are just as often 'used' as ones we buy :)

                    Hope this helps :)

                    Gassho,
                    Doreen/Shaku ni Myo Jun
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