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Re: Shin02143/all

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  • Chris
    Thank you. I m currently reading and re-reading. A friend gave me copies of Pure Land, Pure Mind and Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith (the one I m currently
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1, 2006
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      Thank you. I'm currently reading and re-reading. A friend gave me
      copies of Pure Land, Pure Mind and Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith (the
      one I'm currently plowing through). Taming the Monkey Mind and Mind-
      Seal of the Buddhas await. Still trying to figure out how the pieces
      are going to fit for me.

      My introduction to Buddhism was through Zen and I'm trying not to
      interupt my daily routine of zazen but looking for ways to incoporate
      the nembutsu into my daily practice. Any suggestions appreciated
      here. Zen and Pure Land seems more complimentary than anything else
      so far.

      Most recently I've been using the nembutsu in place of the gathas
      used by Zen practioners. Based on the ten recitation method (on the
      web in such places as: http://www.amtb-usa.org/eten-1.htm) I've been
      doing this when waking, before showering, after getting dressed,
      before brushing my teeth in morning, as I leave the house the first
      time each day, when I return to the house the last time each day,
      before my evening meal, before brushing my teeth at night and before
      going to bed and with the last recitation, making the vow to reborn
      in the Pure Land.

      Exactly how bad of heretic does all of this make me? And while we're
      on the subject, what kind of training goes into becoming a lay
      practioner of the Pure Land schools? Keep in mind I'm more familar
      with how the Zen schools do things and I'm still learning there.

      Chris






      --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "toraginus" <toraginus@...> wrote:
      >
      > I forgot to mention that the Shoshinge is available from the
      official
      > Hongwanji website:
      > http://www.nishihongwanji-
      la.org/church/buddhism/shoshinge.html#shoshing\
      > e_translation
      >
      > toraginus
      >
      > --------
      > --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "Oelund Fairking" <amidatrust@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello,
      > >
      > > While I cannot comment on the history or this fellow, although I
      > > addressed these questions through his response the questions I
      have
      > > are addressed to all of you as I am trying to piece together the
      > > thoughts of Jodo Shinshu practitioners. Is there variances of
      > > beliefs and approach even amongst differing Jodo Shinshu
      > > practitioners? Even in the realm of how much we experience "pure
      > > land here and now", it seems to me I ran across a group in the
      > > Midwest that it was a valid assertion and goal while others have
      > > asserted that Pure land is only fulfilled after this lifetime.
      > > Although I have my own opinions on this I am trying to find out
      what
      > > it is Jodo Shinshu practitioners think on these subjects, and I
      > > suppose know the difference between traditional teachings and
      > > current knock-offs. Most definitely, what I am concerned with most
      > > is establishing Jodo Shinshu as it relates to foundamental noble
      > > truths of buddhism, and of course how it relates to the revelation
      > > of the Mahayana approach. One of the criticisms I have heard is
      that
      > > jodo Shinshu somehow deviates from the "orthodoxy" of that
      > > traditional buddhist truth but I don't quite buy this. My
      > > understanding is Shinron was if anything a quite studied man and I
      > > don't think he "fell off the wheel" so to speak simply to be in
      the
      > > face of university monks. So, I really do want to undstand what he
      > > is saying and the firm underpinnings that gird it. Again, in
      > > studying Hua Yen the idea of naturally arising correlative to our
      > > own transcendental mind and the capacity to reveal it makes a
      great
      > > deal of sense, whereas the established dichotomy that Paul
      asserts I
      > > strain at, although I can understand it from a utilitarian aspect.
      > >
      > > Anyway, I would appreciate commentary from any and all forum
      members
      > > on this or anything else you feel would be helpful.
      > >
      > > Gassho,
      > > Amitabha,
      > > Ryk
      > >
      >
    • Shak El
      your mind is buddha your body is the pure land so why vow to be reborn into what you already are? Saying the nembutsu but once is to lift the veil and see the
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1, 2006
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        your mind is buddha
        your body is the pure land
        so why vow to be reborn into what you already are?
         
        Saying the nembutsu but once
        is to lift the veil
        and see the mind and body as One.
        To see oneself as Buddha and her land.
         
        In your past lives
        you have already accumulated
        good karma.
        and so came to this time and place.
         
        Namah AMida Buddha!

        Chris <chrisailes01@...> wrote:
        Thank you. I'm currently reading and re-reading. A friend gave me
        copies of Pure Land, Pure Mind and Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith (the
        one I'm currently plowing through). Taming the Monkey Mind and Mind-
        Seal of the Buddhas await. Still trying to figure out how the pieces
        are going to fit for me.

        My introduction to Buddhism was through Zen and I'm trying not to
        interupt my daily routine of zazen but looking for ways to incoporate
        the nembutsu into my daily practice. Any suggestions appreciated
        here. Zen and Pure Land seems more complimentary than anything else
        so far.

        Most recently I've been using the nembutsu in place of the gathas
        used by Zen practioners. Based on the ten recitation method (on the
        web in such places as: http://www.amtb-usa.org/eten-1.htm) I've been
        doing this when waking, before showering, after getting dressed,
        before brushing my teeth in morning, as I leave the house the first
        time each day, when I return to the house the last time each day,
        before my evening meal, before brushing my teeth at night and before
        going to bed and with the last recitation, making the vow to reborn
        in the Pure Land.

        Exactly how bad of heretic does all of this make me? And while we're
        on the subject, what kind of training goes into becoming a lay
        practioner of the Pure Land schools? Keep in mind I'm more familar
        with how the Zen schools do things and I'm still learning there.

        Chris






        --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "toraginus" wrote:
        >
        > I forgot to mention that the Shoshinge is available from the
        official
        > Hongwanji website:
        > http://www.nishihongwanji-
        la.org/church/buddhism/shoshinge.html#shoshing\
        > e_translation
        >
        > toraginus
        >
        > --------
        > --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "Oelund Fairking"
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello,
        > >
        > > While I cannot comment on the history or this fellow, although I
        > > addressed these questions through his response the questions I
        have
        > > are addressed to all of you as I am trying to piece together the
        > > thoughts of Jodo Shinshu practitioners. Is there variances of
        > > beliefs and approach even amongst differing Jodo Shinshu
        > > practitioners? Even in the realm of how much we experience "pure
        > > land here and now", it seems to me I ran across a group in the
        > > Midwest that it was a valid assertion and goal while others have
        > > asserted that Pure land is only fulfilled after this lifetime.
        > > Although I have my own opinions on this I am trying to find out
        what
        > > it is Jodo Shinshu practitioners think on these subjects, and I
        > > suppose know the difference between traditional teachings and
        > > current knock-offs. Most definitely, what I am concerned with most
        > > is establishing Jodo Shinshu as it relates to foundamental noble
        > > truths of buddhism, and of course how it relates to the revelation
        > > of the Mahayana approach. One of the criticisms I have heard is
        that
        > > jodo Shinshu somehow deviates from the "orthodoxy" of that
        > > traditional buddhist truth but I don't quite buy this. My
        > > understanding is Shinron was if anything a quite studied man and I
        > > don't think he "fell off the wheel" so to speak simply to be in
        the
        > > face of university monks. So, I really do want to undstand what he
        > > is saying and the firm underpinnings that gird it. Again, in
        > > studying Hua Yen the idea of naturally arising correlative to our
        > > own transcendental mind and the capacity to reveal it makes a
        great
        > > deal of sense, whereas the established dichotomy that Paul
        asserts I
        > > strain at, although I can understand it from a utilitarian aspect.
        > >
        > > Anyway, I would appreciate commentary from any and all forum
        members
        > > on this or anything else you feel would be helpful.
        > >
        > > Gassho,
        > > Amitabha,
        > > Ryk
        > >
        >






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        Jim Davis
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      • Chris
        ... I also recite the four vows of the Bodhisattva. I vow to save sentient beings knowing that there is no beings to save. I vow to end delusions, though we
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 1, 2006
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          > your mind is buddha
          > your body is the pure land
          > so why vow to be reborn into what you already are?

          I also recite the four vows of the Bodhisattva. I vow to save
          sentient beings knowing that there is no beings to save. I vow to
          end delusions, though we already exist beyond them. I vow to enter
          the Dharma Gates though we are already there. I vow to embody the
          Buddha way, though we are in truth already the Buddha.

          I suppose it is all a finger pointing at the moon, a koan to be
          pondered but you might enjoy:
          http://www.ymba.org/BWF/bwf0.htm

          > In your past lives
          > you have already accumulated
          > good karma.
          > and so came to this time and place.

          The nembutsu generates strange emotions in me. On the surface of
          things, gratitude that I am included in the Primal Vow. Beneath the
          surface, where self power flows into other power, awe and wonder that
          I am part of something so vast.

          Chris
        • Aaron (Shoren) Boone
          I wish I were as certain. Being a hopeless agnostic in almost all matters of spirituality I may take the not so Buddhist approach and apply faith . I cannot
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2, 2006
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            I wish I were as certain. Being a hopeless agnostic in almost all matters of spirituality I may take the not so Buddhist approach and apply "faith". I cannot be certain at this moment if Amida's vow encompasses me, but I hope so.
             
            The O'Nembutsu does make me feel thankfull but at other times it makes me feel guilty. I wonder if I am worthy or even sincere. I think it's possible to utter O'Nembutsu in vain. But then I could be in error on that point.
             
            In Gassho,
            Aaron

            Chris <chrisailes01@...> wrote:
            "The nembutsu generates strange emotions in me.  On the surface of
            things, gratitude that I am included in the Primal Vow.  Beneath the
            surface, where self power flows into other power, awe and wonder that
            I am part of something so vast.

            Chris"


            The Primal Vow was established out of deep compassion for us who cannot become freed from the bondage of birth-and-death through any religious practice, due to the abundance of blind passion. Since its basic intention is to effect the enlightenment of such an evil one, the evil person who is led to true entrusting by Other Power is the person who attains birth in the Pure Land. Thus, even the good person attains birth, how much more so the evil person!

            Shinran Shonin


            Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

          • Shin02143@aol.com
            ... I can relate to your situation, Aaron. There is a strong component of I don t know in my practice. Rather than faith I prefer trust as a working
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 2, 2006
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              In a message dated 4/2/06 6:29:05 AM, shoren108@... writes:



              I wish I were as certain. Being a hopeless agnostic in almost all matters of spirituality I may take the not so Buddhist approach and apply "faith". I cannot be certain at this moment if Amida's vow encompasses me, but I hope so.

               

              The O'Nembutsu does make me feel thankfull but at other times it makes me feel guilty. I wonder if I am worthy or even sincere. I think it's possible to utter O'Nembutsu in vain. But then I could be in error on that point.

               

              In Gassho,

              Aaron


              I can relate to your situation, Aaron. There is a strong  component
              of "I don't know" in my "practice." Rather than "faith" I prefer
              "trust" as a working hypothesis. That doesn't sound particularly
              religious, I suppose, but it is where I am at.
              gassho,
              Rick
            • toraginus
              In July I ll be 75, and I am finally begin to realize and even accept that my controlling mind wants to put everything together in a neat package, preferably
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 13, 2006
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                In July I'll be 75, and I am finally begin to realize and even accept that my controlling mind
                wants to put everything together in a neat package, preferably outline form --- rather
                than  allow things to work themselves out. To allow "grace" or the "universe," or "Amida" to
                have the major word in the matter has been difficult for me. These thoughts were
                triggered by your comment: " Still trying to figure out how the pieces are going to fit for
                me."

                Chris, why not allow things to evolve, to work themselves out?

                The German poet Rilke has something to say on a very similar point. (I used to have this
                posted in my classroom.)


                "...have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions
                themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign langugage.
                Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not
                be able to live them And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps
                then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way
                into the answer."

                As for me, it seems to arise spontaneously, from time to time. Things go well, "Namo
                Amida Butsu".  Things go awry: "Namo Amida Butsu". 

                In Japan, a young Zen student met an elderly woman on the path. "Well Granny, where is
                the Pure Land anyway?"  With a puzzled look, she responded, "Why, where it always is." ---
                as she touched her heart.

                bob (toraginus)


                --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chrisailes01@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you. I'm currently reading and re-reading. A friend gave me
                > copies of Pure Land, Pure Mind and Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith (the
                > one I'm currently plowing through). Taming the Monkey Mind and Mind-
                > Seal of the Buddhas await. Still trying to figure out how the pieces
                > are going to fit for me.
                >
                > My introduction to Buddhism was through Zen and I'm trying not to
                > interupt my daily routine of zazen but looking for ways to incoporate
                > the nembutsu into my daily practice. Any suggestions appreciated
                > here. Zen and Pure Land seems more complimentary than anything else
                > so far.
                >
                > Most recently I've been using the nembutsu in place of the gathas
                > used by Zen practioners. Based on the ten recitation method (on the
                > web in such places as: http://www.amtb-usa.org/eten-1.htm) I've been
                > doing this when waking, before showering, after getting dressed,
                > before brushing my teeth in morning, as I leave the house the first
                > time each day, when I return to the house the last time each day,
                > before my evening meal, before brushing my teeth at night and before
                > going to bed and with the last recitation, making the vow to reborn
                > in the Pure Land.
                >
                > Exactly how bad of heretic does all of this make me? And while we're
                > on the subject, what kind of training goes into becoming a lay
                > practioner of the Pure Land schools? Keep in mind I'm more familar
                > with how the Zen schools do things and I'm still learning there.
                >
                > Chris
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "toraginus" <toraginus@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I forgot to mention that the Shoshinge is available from the
                > official
                > > Hongwanji website:
                > > http://www.nishihongwanji-
                > la.org/church/buddhism/shoshinge.html#shoshing\
                > > e_translation
                > >
                > > toraginus
                > >
                > > --------
                > > --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "Oelund Fairking" <amidatrust@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello,
                > > >
                > > > While I cannot comment on the history or this fellow, although I
                > > > addressed these questions through his response the questions I
                > have
                > > > are addressed to all of you as I am trying to piece together the
                > > > thoughts of Jodo Shinshu practitioners. Is there variances of
                > > > beliefs and approach even amongst differing Jodo Shinshu
                > > > practitioners? Even in the realm of how much we experience "pure
                > > > land here and now", it seems to me I ran across a group in the
                > > > Midwest that it was a valid assertion and goal while others have
                > > > asserted that Pure land is only fulfilled after this lifetime.
                > > > Although I have my own opinions on this I am trying to find out
                > what
                > > > it is Jodo Shinshu practitioners think on these subjects, and I
                > > > suppose know the difference between traditional teachings and
                > > > current knock-offs. Most definitely, what I am concerned with most
                > > > is establishing Jodo Shinshu as it relates to foundamental noble
                > > > truths of buddhism, and of course how it relates to the revelation
                > > > of the Mahayana approach. One of the criticisms I have heard is
                > that
                > > > jodo Shinshu somehow deviates from the "orthodoxy" of that
                > > > traditional buddhist truth but I don't quite buy this. My
                > > > understanding is Shinron was if anything a quite studied man and I
                > > > don't think he "fell off the wheel" so to speak simply to be in
                > the
                > > > face of university monks. So, I really do want to undstand what he
                > > > is saying and the firm underpinnings that gird it. Again, in
                > > > studying Hua Yen the idea of naturally arising correlative to our
                > > > own transcendental mind and the capacity to reveal it makes a
                > great
                > > > deal of sense, whereas the established dichotomy that Paul
                > asserts I
                > > > strain at, although I can understand it from a utilitarian aspect.
                > > >
                > > > Anyway, I would appreciate commentary from any and all forum
                > members
                > > > on this or anything else you feel would be helpful.
                > > >
                > > > Gassho,
                > > > Amitabha,
                > > > Ryk
                > > >
                > >
                >
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