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Re: [shinlist] Re: Shakyamuni Buddha Enlightenment in he Physical body

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  • Jim
    Future life, present life same life... enlightenment is in life. jim ... http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/b0VolB/TM ... Jim Davis Ozark
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 12, 2006
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      Future life,
      present life
      same life...
      enlightenment is in life.

      jim

      --- seb_hiroshimakoto <seb_hiroshimakoto@...>
      wrote:

      > --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@...
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 2/12/06 3:07:52 PM,
      > seb_hiroshimakoto@...
      > writes:
      > >
      > >
      > > > Hi friends at the Group:
      > > > our beloved Shakyamuni...has a complete
      > Enlightenment in he
      > physical
      > > > body..in he Present life...and we will upon our
      > physical
      > death"truly
      > > > Settled was guaranteed after death"
      > > > we have gratitude to our beloved Buddha
      > Amitabha"Amida".for the
      > 48
      > > > Vows.
      > > > but in the lotus sutra teach "said" that we can
      > be
      > enlighttenmend in
      > > > our prersent life.?
      > > > any one like to have inpu/.thank Rick
      > > > ingassho with respect and makoto.
      > > > seb.  
      > > >
      > > Shinran did not agree with this. In Tannisho he
      > specifically
      > > said the way of the Lotus Sutra in the present age
      > could not
      > > lead to buddhahood. It's up to you, of course,
      > which way you
      > > want to go. I'm just referencing the Tannisho,
      > which you are
      > > free to reject.
      > > gassho,
      > > Rick
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      Jim Davis
      Ozark Bioregion, USA
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/left_n_Springfield/

      My latest books:

      "The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims: A Short Introduciton"
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    • Peter Kyobo Skye
      ... Dear Rick, Unless I missed something, Tannisho doesn t mention the Lotus Sutra specifically. I don t think Shinran would have singled out any particular
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 13, 2006
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        > Shinran did not agree with this. In Tannisho he specifically said the way of
        > the Lotus Sutra in the present age could not lead to buddhahood. It's up to
        > you, of course, which way you want to go. I'm just referencing the Tannisho,
        > which you are free to reject.

        Dear Rick,

        Unless I missed something, Tannisho doesn't mention the Lotus Sutra
        specifically.

        I don't think Shinran would have singled out any particular sutra and said
        "following this will not get you enlightened." He likely would have seen any
        practice other than o-nembutsu as something that, as one performs it, one comes
        to realize that it really amounts to pitting the ego against the ego and is
        therefore ultimately ineffectual. Otherwise Shinran would have rejected all
        sutras other than the Pure Land Sutras which so far as I can tell he did not.

        What Shinran did reject, categorically, was the possibility of attaining
        enlightenment while still in this karma-laden life. He saw enlightenment as
        entirely a posthumous reality. However, and this is a big however, being
        endowed by Amida with trust in Amida's sincerity (shinjin) was functionally
        equivalent to enlightenment for Shinran. At least to the extent that to attain
        shinjin was to be saved.

        With palms together
        Peter
      • Stephen
        My last word on SGI and Nichiren: I feel that to cast SGI in a negative light is like harming the Buddha.
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 14, 2006
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          My last word on SGI and Nichiren: I feel that to cast SGI in a
          negative light is like harming the Buddha.
        • Shin02143@aol.com
          ... Those weren t his precise words, but in the context of his other writings, the following excerpt from the Tannisho ch. 15 pretty much seals the deal: XV
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 14, 2006
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            In a message dated 2/13/06 11:31:48 PM, kyobo@... writes:



            Dear Rick,

            Unless I missed something, Tannisho doesn't mention the Lotus Sutra
            specifically. 

            I don't think Shinran would have singled out any particular sutra and said
            "following this will not get you enlightened."

            Those weren't his precise words, but in the context of his other writings,
            the following excerpt from the Tannisho ch. 15 pretty much seals the deal:

            XV
            Some people say that one can attain enlightenment in this very body filled with blind passion. This is completely out of the question.
            The doctrine of attaining Buddhahood in this very body is the essential teaching of Shingon Esoterism, the ultimate attainment of the three esoteric practices. And the purifying of the six sense-organs is the doctrine of the One Vehicle teaching of the Lotus Sutra, the attainment of the four blissful practices. These are all difficult practices performed by superior religious adepts and enlightenment realized through perfecting meditative practices.
          • Shin02143@aol.com
            ... My last word: I disagree. SGI is a harmful cult. Just because they present themselves as Buddhist is no excuse for their destructive cult of personality
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 14, 2006
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              In a message dated 2/14/06 4:44:50 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:


              My last word on SGI and Nichiren: I feel that to cast SGI in a
              negative light is like harming the Buddha.


              My last word: I disagree. SGI is a harmful cult. Just because they
              present themselves as Buddhist is no excuse for their destructive
              cult of personality and high-demand tactics. As Buddhists I believe
              we should expose false Dharma.
              gassho,
              Rick
            • toraginus
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 15, 2006
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                --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 2/14/06 4:44:50 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:
                >
                >
                > > My last word on SGI and Nichiren: I feel that to cast SGI in a
                > > negative light is like harming the Buddha.
                > >
                >
                > My last word: I disagree. SGI is a harmful cult. Just because they
                > present themselves as Buddhist is no excuse for their destructive
                > cult of personality and high-demand tactics. As Buddhists I believe
                > we should expose false Dharma.
                > gassho,
                > Rick
                >
              • toraginus
                ... (I tried to reply before but I was using Safari and t ried to use the Rich Text option and when I checked my reply later---found that it was not there.
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 15, 2006
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                  --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 2/14/06 4:44:50 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  > > My last word on SGI and Nichiren: I feel that to cast SGI in a
                  > > negative light is like harming the Buddha.
                  > >
                  >
                  > My last word: I disagree. SGI is a harmful cult. Just because they
                  > present themselves as Buddhist is no excuse for their destructive
                  > cult of personality and high-demand tactics. As Buddhists I believe
                  > we should expose false Dharma.
                  > gassho,
                  > Rick
                  >
                  (I tried to reply before but I was using Safari and t ried to use the
                  Rich Text option and when I checked my reply later---found that it was
                  not there. Perhaps, it's not a good idea to use Rich Text on these
                  groups. I wish Yahoo Groups would give some guidance.)

                  To cast a group that claims to be within the legacy of Buddhism -- but
                  is not -- in a negative light is certainly not harming the Buddha.
                  That does not make sense. Rather criticism of SGI is defending True
                  Dharma.

                  To follow logically from the original comment would mean that no
                  criticism could ever be made of ANY group that believes itself or
                  claims to be Buddhist.

                  In the Junirai written by Nagarjuna there is this statement:

                  (Referring to Amida)
                  "He subdues the arrogance of demons and heretics.
                  Thus I prostrate myself before Amida Buddha."

                  I believe Rick is correct not only in his appraisal of SGI, but in his
                  belief that false or heretical forms of Buddhism must be exposed and
                  pointed out. Not ---everything --- can go under the label: Buddhist.

                  toraginus
                • Peter Kyobo Skye
                  ... Careful, my friends. Many people consider Shinshu heretical and false! One may choose to criticize a school for its tactics, even its beliefs. But to go
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 16, 2006
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                    > I believe Rick is correct not only in his appraisal of SGI, but in his belief
                    > that false or heretical forms of Buddhism must be exposed and pointed
                    > out. Not ---everything --- can go under the label: Buddhist.

                    Careful, my friends. Many people consider Shinshu heretical and false!

                    One may choose to criticize a school for its tactics, even its beliefs. But to
                    go further is to presume one has the mind of the Buddha to be able to judge what
                    is -- ultimately -- Dharma and what isn't.

                    With palms together,
                    Peter
                  • Shin02143@aol.com
                    ... I m unclear as to your intent here, Peter. Have I gone further ? If so, in what sense? I was criticizing SGI s high demand methods and cult of personality
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 16, 2006
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                      In a message dated 2/16/06 10:32:26 AM, kyobo@... writes:


                      One may choose to criticize a school for its tactics, even its beliefs.  But to
                      go further is to presume one has the mind of the Buddha to be able to judge what
                      is -- ultimately -- Dharma and what isn't.

                      With palms together,
                      Peter

                      I'm unclear as to your intent here, Peter. Have I "gone further"?
                      If so, in what sense? I was criticizing SGI's high demand methods
                      and cult of personality as distinctly un-Buddhist according to any
                      sense of Buddhism that I am familiar with, and to portray SGI
                      as Buddhism is, in my mind, doing the Dharma a grave disservice.
                      gassho,
                      Rick
                    • Stephen
                      If SGI represents false Dharma with regard to the concept of innate enlightenment which Honen was critical of, then their promotion of respecting the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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                        If SGI represents false Dharma with regard to the concept of innate
                        enlightenment which Honen was critical of, then their promotion of
                        respecting the Bodhisattva in us all may be the root of criticism
                        against them.

                        Innate enlightenment is a Tendai teaching that "buddhahood is not
                        something achieved as an external goal, but is inherent from the
                        outset; one has only to realize it" --
                        http://www.jsri.jp/English/Honen/TEACHINGS/kamakurab.html

                        When members of SGI do what Rick describes they do, that is false
                        Dharma. Thus *it is not Buddhist practice*, but is the practice of
                        human beings. This is false doctrine.

                        Within context of the teaching of innate enlightenment, the concept of
                        respecting others as bodhisattvas is not false Dharma when it does not
                        distract the Buddhist seeker from spiritual awakening.

                        Shinjin is the Shin form of spiritual awakening i.e. awakening to the
                        salvation offered by the Primal Vow.

                        Such awakening leads to realization that Pure Land is pure heart-mind.

                        Thus this pure heart-mind has the flavour of Buddha-nature.

                        Provided that we do not practise false doctrines such as worshipping
                        others as holy or follow others without regard to what the Buddha
                        said, that concept that we should respect others as bodhisattvas is
                        not false Dharma.

                        Since all sentient beings have Buddha-nature, including bodhisattvas,
                        then to respect others as bodhisattvas is true Dharma.

                        Therefore, I do agree the false doctrines practised by a few SGI
                        members is false Dharma.

                        However, to paint all SGI members with the same brush is similar to
                        not respecting the Buddha.

                        Just as not all Shin Buddhists will realize shinjin, not all SGI
                        members will practise false doctrines.

                        --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter Kyobo Skye <kyobo@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I believe Rick is correct not only in his appraisal of SGI, but in
                        his belief
                        > > that false or heretical forms of Buddhism must be exposed and pointed
                        > > out. Not ---everything --- can go under the label: Buddhist.
                        >
                        > Careful, my friends. Many people consider Shinshu heretical and false!
                        >
                        > One may choose to criticize a school for its tactics, even its
                        beliefs. But to
                        > go further is to presume one has the mind of the Buddha to be able
                        to judge what
                        > is -- ultimately -- Dharma and what isn't.
                        >
                        > With palms together,
                        > Peter
                        >
                      • Peter Kyobo Skye
                        ... Dear Rick, In my opinion, which is as self-invested and myopic as any, yes you have gone further. There is no sect of Buddhism to my knowledge that
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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                          > I'm unclear as to your intent here, Peter. Have I "gone further"? If so, in
                          > what sense? I was criticizing SGI's high demand methods and cult of
                          > personality as distinctly un-Buddhist according to any sense of Buddhism that
                          > I am familiar with, and to portray SGI as Buddhism is, in my mind, doing the
                          > Dharma a grave disservice.

                          Dear Rick,

                          In my opinion, which is as self-invested and myopic as any, yes you have gone
                          further. There is no sect of Buddhism to my knowledge that doesn't have its
                          version of high demand methods and cult of personality. They may be more
                          covert, more veiled, more innocuous to the faithful, but they are there.

                          SGI's clay feet have been exposed over and over again by its members, former
                          members, opponents, and of course the media. Slings and arrows at this point is
                          a bit anticlimactic.

                          My point was that living in the suburbs of enlightenment, as we all do, we do
                          not have the Buddha's vantage point from which to judge whether SGI is a slander
                          to the Dharma or a boon. Or whether Jodo Shinshu is.

                          Meanwhile we should take note that SGI has (1) introduced a lot more people to
                          at least the word Buddhism than the BCA has in the West, and (2) involved more
                          African Americans in the Dharma than any other organization.

                          I repeat, I am not a big fan of SGI the movie. But I have often gotten a lot
                          out of SGI the book.

                          Best
                          Peter
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