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Re: [shinlist] Re: Jim's Thoughts on MAPPO - And My Response

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  • Shin02143@aol.com
    ... Hello there -- Would you care to introduce yourself? gassho, Rick
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 31, 2006
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      In a message dated 1/31/06 2:02:00 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:


      Mappo does not refer to the withering away of Buddhism itself, it
      refers to the lack of faith and esteem for spiritual awakening as the
      main goal of all sentient beings.

      Instead, money is the new buddha, and it is indeed a very false one
      that leads at least the majority of people dazed and confused.

      Hello there --
      Would you care to introduce yourself?
      gassho,
      Rick
    • Stephen
      Hi, my name is Stephen. Born and raised as Jodo Shinshu in Canada, I was introduced to BCA religious texts on Shin Buddhism as a young teenager. Currently, I
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 2, 2006
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        Hi, my name is Stephen.

        Born and raised as Jodo Shinshu in Canada, I was introduced to BCA
        religious texts on Shin Buddhism as a young teenager.

        Currently, I have discovered the books by prolific Chinese Pure Land
        authors such as Ven. Master Chin Kung (Buddhism: The Wisdom of
        Compassion and Awakening), K. Sri Dhammanada (How to Live without Fear
        and Worry), and Thich Thien Tam (Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith).



        --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 1/31/06 2:02:00 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:
        >
        >
        > > Mappo does not refer to the withering away of Buddhism itself, it
        > > refers to the lack of faith and esteem for spiritual awakening as the
        > > main goal of all sentient beings.
        > >
        > > Instead, money is the new buddha, and it is indeed a very false one
        > > that leads at least the majority of people dazed and confused.
        > >
        > Hello there --
        > Would you care to introduce yourself?
        > gassho,
        > Rick
        >
      • w w
        to stephen, i don t know if you realize that there is a difference in belief between shin and chinese pure land. i was involved with chinese pure land buddhism
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 2, 2006
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          to stephen,
          i don't know if you realize that there is a difference in belief between shin and
          chinese pure land. i was involved with chinese pure land buddhism for about 10
          years. in chinese pure land ,it is mixed with chan/zen practices,while shin relies on the nembutsu alone.i have been a shin buddhist the last 5 years or so
          and i am happy that by "faith" in amida alone i will attain the pure land. chinese
          pure land buddhism is a "self effort" path and will take many lives, unlike shin
          which promises salvation in the next life after death.that being said i have read
          those books you mentioned and would recommend if i were still a chinese pure
          land buddhist.ha ha ha.
           
          gassho,
          warren


          Stephen <shkawamoto@...> wrote:
          Hi, my name is Stephen.

          Born and raised as Jodo Shinshu in Canada, I was introduced to BCA
          religious texts on Shin Buddhism as a young teenager.

          Currently, I have discovered the books by prolific Chinese Pure Land
          authors such as Ven. Master Chin Kung (Buddhism: The Wisdom of
          Compassion and Awakening), K. Sri Dhammanada (How to Live without Fear
          and Worry), and Thich Thien Tam (Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith).



          --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 1/31/06 2:02:00 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:
          >
          >
          > > Mappo does not refer to the withering away of Buddhism itself, it
          > > refers to the lack of faith and esteem for spiritual awakening as the
          > > main goal of all sentient beings.
          > >
          > > Instead, money is the new buddha, and it is indeed a very false one
          > > that leads at least the majority of people dazed and confused.
          > >
          > Hello there --
          > Would you care to introduce yourself?
          > gassho,
          > Rick
          >






          Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos

        • Stephen
          Yes, I agree there is a difference between Chinese Pure Land and Jodo Shinshu. For Chinese Pure Land inspires me to put more effort into Buddha Recitation,
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 3, 2006
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            Yes, I agree there is a difference between Chinese Pure Land and Jodo
            Shinshu.

            For Chinese Pure Land inspires me to put more effort into Buddha
            Recitation, uttering the Nembutsu out of gratitude to Amida's compassion.

            I also agree that faith in being reborn in the Pure Land is one of the
            main focuses of Shin, for faith assures the Pure Land practitioners
            will be reborn there.




            --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, w w <kingwarren14@...> wrote:
            >
            > to stephen,
            > i don't know if you realize that there is a difference in belief
            between shin and
            > chinese pure land. i was involved with chinese pure land buddhism
            for about 10
            > years. in chinese pure land ,it is mixed with chan/zen
            practices,while shin relies on the nembutsu alone.i have been a shin
            buddhist the last 5 years or so
            > and i am happy that by "faith" in amida alone i will attain the
            pure land. chinese
            > pure land buddhism is a "self effort" path and will take many
            lives, unlike shin
            > which promises salvation in the next life after death.that being
            said i have read
            > those books you mentioned and would recommend if i were still a
            chinese pure
            > land buddhist.
          • Shin02143@aol.com
            ... Dear Mr. Kawamoto, In Jodo Shinshu, effort is not required and is in fact eschewed. Effort requires calculation, and calculation presumes upon the vow of
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 4, 2006
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              In a message dated 2/4/06 2:06:21 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:



              For Chinese Pure Land inspires me to put more effort into Buddha
              Recitation, uttering the Nembutsu out of gratitude to Amida's compassion.


              Dear Mr. Kawamoto,
              In Jodo Shinshu, effort is not required and is in fact eschewed.
              Effort requires calculation, and calculation presumes upon the
              vow of Amida, saying in effect that the vow is not as all-powerful
              as is promised in the sutras. Another problem with Chinese Pure
              Land is their tradition of living masters, people of great effort
              who are acknowledged are certainly going to the pure land after
              their current birth. Who are we to say who will go to the pure land?
              And Who are we to say whom Amida chooses?
              I find that tradition breeds presumptuousness and actually works
              against the true intent of the Buddha's Primal Vow. For these reasons
              I have decided, some time ago, that Chinese Pure Land Buddhism
              is not for me.
              gassho,
              Rick
            • Peter Kyobo Skye
              Dear Stephen, I am interested in all forms of Pure Land practice. You mention that Chinese Pure Land inspires you to put more effort into nembutsu, uttering
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 4, 2006
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                Dear Stephen,

                I am interested in all forms of Pure Land practice. You mention that Chinese
                Pure Land inspires you to put more effort into nembutsu, uttering it out of
                gratitude for Amida's compassion. This is by no means a criticism but it sounds
                like you've moved the traditional emphasis on nembutsu as merit-gathering
                practice more towards the Shin position.

                What say you?

                With palms together
                Peter
              • Peter Kyobo Skye
                Dear Stephen, One of my problems with traditional Pure Land Buddhism -- indeed with any traditional Buddhism -- is the understanding of karma that says that
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 4, 2006
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                  Dear Stephen,

                  One of my problems with traditional Pure Land Buddhism -- indeed with any
                  traditional Buddhism -- is the understanding of karma that says that anything
                  and everything that happens to one is the working out of past karma. By that
                  understanding, if lightening happened to strike me through my office window
                  while I was looking out it would be a ripening of a past negative karma.

                  I can understand that my karma has led me be sitting in that particular spot at
                  that particular moment, but I can't see how any past negative karma could cause
                  the lightening to pick that time to smite me.

                  With palms together
                  Peter
                • Jim
                  Why dont we start a separate thread on Chinese Pure Lnad. The header reads about Jim s view of Mappo. This has had over 20 responses and none dealt with mappo
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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                    Why dont we start a separate thread on Chinese Pure
                    Lnad. The header reads about Jim's view of Mappo. This
                    has had over 20 responses and none dealt with mappo in
                    any way..just a suggestion

                    jim

                    --- Peter Kyobo Skye <kyobo@...> wrote:

                    > Dear Stephen,
                    >
                    > I am interested in all forms of Pure Land practice.
                    > You mention that Chinese
                    > Pure Land inspires you to put more effort into
                    > nembutsu, uttering it out of
                    > gratitude for Amida's compassion. This is by no
                    > means a criticism but it sounds
                    > like you've moved the traditional emphasis on
                    > nembutsu as merit-gathering
                    > practice more towards the Shin position.
                    >
                    > What say you?
                    >
                    > With palms together
                    > Peter
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
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                    >
                    >
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                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Jim Davis
                    Ozark Bioregion, USA
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/left_n_Springfield/

                    My latest books:

                    "The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims: A Short Introduciton"
                    http://www.lulu.com/content/114194

                    "Pure Land Now!"
                    http://www.lulu.com/content/116320

                    "Vision and Praxis"
                    http://www.lulu.com/content/132902
                  • Jim
                    I think karma needs to be soften by the Northern European pagan concept of Luck. Sometimes things happens not due to karma but due to just plain bad or good
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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                      I think karma needs to be soften by the Northern
                      European pagan concept of Luck. Sometimes things
                      happens not due to karma but due to just plain bad or
                      good luck.

                      jim

                      --- Peter Kyobo Skye <kyobo@...> wrote:

                      > Dear Stephen,
                      >
                      > One of my problems with traditional Pure Land
                      > Buddhism -- indeed with any
                      > traditional Buddhism -- is the understanding of
                      > karma that says that anything
                      > and everything that happens to one is the working
                      > out of past karma. By that
                      > understanding, if lightening happened to strike me
                      > through my office window
                      > while I was looking out it would be a ripening of a
                      > past negative karma.
                      >
                      > I can understand that my karma has led me be sitting
                      > in that particular spot at
                      > that particular moment, but I can't see how any past
                      > negative karma could cause
                      > the lightening to pick that time to smite me.
                      >
                      > With palms together
                      > Peter
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > --------------------~-->
                      > Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and
                      > poor with hope and healing
                      >
                      http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/b0VolB/TM
                      >
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      > shinlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      Jim Davis
                      Ozark Bioregion, USA
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/left_n_Springfield/

                      My latest books:

                      "The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims: A Short Introduciton"
                      http://www.lulu.com/content/114194

                      "Pure Land Now!"
                      http://www.lulu.com/content/116320

                      "Vision and Praxis"
                      http://www.lulu.com/content/132902
                    • Shin02143@aol.com
                      ... Well said. I mean, if we believe *everything* has a item-to-item karmic cause then we have to believe in original karma (a la original sin ), since it
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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                        In a message dated 2/5/06 11:56:21 AM, from_alamut@... writes:


                        I think karma needs to be soften by the Northern
                        European pagan concept of Luck. Sometimes things
                        happens not due to karma but due to just plain bad or
                        good luck.

                        jim

                        Well said. I mean, if we believe *everything* has a
                        item-to-item karmic cause then we have to believe
                        in "original karma" (a la "original sin"), since it wouldn't
                        be possible except for some karma-activating act.
                        Still it wouldn't make sense. Original karma. Yeah, sure.
                        gassho,
                        Rick
                      • Stephen
                        I d never understand Chinese Pure Land Buddhism fully, since much of the commentaries and sutras are written in Mandarin. However, I ve studied Japanese Pure
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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                          I'd never understand Chinese Pure Land Buddhism fully, since much of
                          the commentaries and sutras are written in Mandarin.

                          However, I've studied Japanese Pure Land as much as I am able to
                          comprehend.

                          While I may believe that I comprehend what I read, I know that it is
                          fair more than what I understand *since much of what I write when
                          inspired by the Nembutsu barely reflects the depth of my understanding.

                          But I am under no delusion that I know all about Shin Buddhism. All I
                          know is how to utter the nembutsu - out of gratitude, sincerely!

                          --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > In a message dated 2/4/06 2:06:21 AM, shkawamoto@... writes:
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > For Chinese Pure Land inspires me to put more effort into Buddha
                          > > Recitation, uttering the Nembutsu out of gratitude to Amida's
                          compassion.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Dear Mr. Kawamoto,
                          > In Jodo Shinshu, effort is not required and is in fact eschewed.
                          > Effort requires calculation, and calculation presumes upon the
                          > vow of Amida, saying in effect that the vow is not as all-powerful
                          > as is promised in the sutras. Another problem with Chinese Pure
                          > Land is their tradition of living masters, people of great effort
                          > who are acknowledged are certainly going to the pure land after
                          > their current birth. Who are we to say who will go to the pure land?
                          > And Who are we to say whom Amida chooses?
                          > I find that tradition breeds presumptuousness and actually works
                          > against the true intent of the Buddha's Primal Vow. For these reasons
                          > I have decided, some time ago, that Chinese Pure Land Buddhism
                          > is not for me.
                          > gassho,
                          > Rick
                          >
                        • Stephen
                          There is no good or bad in the mind. All there are are circumstantial evidence which we judge good or bad based on which truths we value dearly.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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                            There is no good or bad in the mind.

                            All there are are circumstantial evidence which we judge "good" or
                            "bad" based on which truths we value dearly.

                            --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Jim <from_alamut@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I think karma needs to be soften by the Northern
                            > European pagan concept of Luck. Sometimes things
                            > happens not due to karma but due to just plain bad or
                            > good luck.
                            >
                            > jim
                            >
                            > --- Peter Kyobo Skye <kyobo@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Dear Stephen,
                            > >
                            > > One of my problems with traditional Pure Land
                            > > Buddhism -- indeed with any
                            > > traditional Buddhism -- is the understanding of
                            > > karma that says that anything
                            > > and everything that happens to one is the working
                            > > out of past karma. By that
                            > > understanding, if lightening happened to strike me
                            > > through my office window
                            > > while I was looking out it would be a ripening of a
                            > > past negative karma.
                            > >
                            > > I can understand that my karma has led me be sitting
                            > > in that particular spot at
                            > > that particular moment, but I can't see how any past
                            > > negative karma could cause
                            > > the lightening to pick that time to smite me.
                            > >
                            > > With palms together
                            > > Peter
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > --------------------~-->
                            > > Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and
                            > > poor with hope and healing
                            > >
                            > http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/b0VolB/TM
                            > >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > shinlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > Jim Davis
                            > Ozark Bioregion, USA
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/left_n_Springfield/
                            >
                            > My latest books:
                            >
                            > "The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims: A Short Introduciton"
                            > http://www.lulu.com/content/114194
                            >
                            > "Pure Land Now!"
                            > http://www.lulu.com/content/116320
                            >
                            > "Vision and Praxis"
                            > http://www.lulu.com/content/132902
                            >
                          • Stephen
                            Karma would imply the lifeforce that is now in us was all the evolutionary chain back to protoplasm. Each cell inthe human body exists due to karma. This
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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                              Karma would imply the lifeforce that is now in us was all the
                              evolutionary chain back to protoplasm.

                              Each cell inthe human body exists due to karma.

                              This implies that karma is blind, like luck.

                              Yet the fact that karma is deposited in the alaya consciousness, a
                              karmic database of cosmic proportions, tends to make karma out to be
                              like the soul without it being the soul, coupled with the Japanese
                              concept of kami (divisible divine essence which may be god or "soul").

                              However, more discussion on this point only serves to put us to sleep,
                              so to speak, rather to encourage spiritual awakening.

                              It's a delusion which may distract all but the faithful from the
                              Name-that-calls.

                              In gassho,
                              Steve

                              --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 2/5/06 11:56:21 AM, from_alamut@... writes:
                              >
                              >
                              > > I think karma needs to be soften by the Northern
                              > > European pagan concept of Luck. Sometimes things
                              > > happens not due to karma but due to just plain bad or
                              > > good luck.
                              > >
                              > > jim
                              > >
                              > Well said. I mean, if we believe *everything* has a
                              > item-to-item karmic cause then we have to believe
                              > in "original karma" (a la "original sin"), since it wouldn't
                              > be possible except for some karma-activating act.
                              > Still it wouldn't make sense. Original karma. Yeah, sure.
                              > gassho,
                              > Rick
                              >
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