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An odd question....yes another one.

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  • Aaron (Shoren) Boone
    Hello folks, This may be an odd question so bear with me. We seek the Dharma path to escape Samsara or the cycle of suffering in life, death and rebirth. Then
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 4, 2005
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      Hello folks,
      This may be an odd question so bear with me. We seek the Dharma path to escape Samsara or the cycle of suffering in life, death and rebirth. Then we entrust ourselves to Amida’s vow in which ALL beings in the 10 worlds are saved and are reborn in his land and become Buddhas. Then we, upon becoming Buddhas return to Samsara to save others.
      Now, we try to escape Samsara, only to make the return trip anyway? Is there more to it? I thought Amida’s vow saved everyone, and if so, who is left? Is the difference being instead of being lost to the currents of Samasara we have a Kayak and a map?
      Just an odd thought I had at 2 in the morning.
      Gassho,
      Aaron


      The Primal Vow was established out of deep compassion for us who cannot become freed from the bondage of birth-and-death through any religious practice, due to the abundance of blind passion. Since its basic intention is to effect the enlightenment of such an evil one, the evil person who is led to true entrusting by Other Power is the person who attains birth in the Pure Land. Thus, even the good person attains birth, how much more so the evil person!

      Shinran Shonin


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    • Paul Roberts
      Hello folks, This may be an odd question so bear with me. We seek the Dharma path to escape Samsara or the cycle of suffering in life, death and rebirth. Then
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 4, 2005
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        Hello folks,
        This may be an odd question so bear with me. We seek the
        Dharma path to escape Samsara or the cycle of suffering in
        life, death and rebirth. Then we entrust ourselves to Amida’
        s vow in which ALL beings in the 10 worlds are saved and are
        reborn in his land and become Buddhas. Then we, upon
        becoming Buddhas return to Samsara to save others.
        Now, we try to escape Samsara, only to make the return
        trip anyway? Is there more to it? I thought Amida’s vow
        saved everyone, and if so, who is left? Is the difference
        being instead of being lost to the currents of Samasara we
        have a Kayak and a map?
        Just an odd thought I had at 2 in the morning.
        Gassho,
        Aaron

        ===

        Your question is not odd, Aaron. What's odd is that people
        (not meaning you) who claim to speak Shinran's teaching seem
        to be ignorant of the answer.

        The reason that it's odd is because it was a critical
        teaching for Shinran...something that he directly addressed
        in his teaching in many places.

        I myself have found great comfort in his words on this
        topic. They are written for us, just as much as for those
        in 12th Century Japan.

        So it's good that you ask. Here's the answer:

        For those who leave this life, and take birth in the Pure
        Land because they are people of the same SHINJIN - people
        who have entrusted themselves to Amida's Person and Work -
        all summarized in the Primal Vow - this is about completing
        our own journey to Buddhahood - and then going back into
        countless worlds with full possession of all the
        transcendent powers of full Buddhahood to help all beings
        escape samsaric life and attain Buddhahood as well.

        Shinran speaks of this, as recounted by his student Yuien,
        in the Tannisho, Chapters 4 & 5, in a passage that sustained
        my heart two years ago, when nothing else did:

        ===

        Concerning compassion, there is a difference between the
        Path of Sages and the Pure Land Path.

        Compassion in the Path of Sages is to pity, commiserate
        with, and care for beings. It is extremely difficult,
        however, to accomplish the saving of others just as one
        wishes.

        Compassion in the Pure Land Path should be understood as
        first attaining Buddhahood quickly through saying the
        nembutsu and, with the mind of great love and compassion,
        freely benefiting sentient beings as one wishes.

        However much love and pity we may feel in our present lives,
        it is hard to save others as we wish; hence, such compassion
        remains unfulfilled. Only the saying of the nembutsu, then,
        is the mind of great compassion that is thoroughgoing."

        "As for me, Shinran, I have never said the nembutsu even
        once for the repose of my departed father and mother. For
        all sentient beings, without exception, have been our
        parents and brothers and sisters in the course of countless
        lives in the many states of existence. On attaining
        Buddhahood after this present life, we can save every one of
        them.

        Were saying the nembutsu indeed a good act in which I strove
        through my own powers, then I might direct the merit thus
        gained towards saving my father and mother. But this is not
        the case.

        If, however, simply abandoning self-power, we quickly attain
        enlightenment in the Pure Land, we will be able to save, by
        means of transcendent powers, first those with whom we have
        close karmic relations, whatever karmic suffering they may
        have sunk to in the six realms through the four modes of
        birth.

        ===

        Are Shinran's words true and real? Or is this some kind of
        code-talking? That is for each one to decide for him or
        herself.

        For myself, I have had the experience of Amida Buddha
        revealing to me that Shinran's words are indeed true and
        real - and yes, in some sense beyond my ability to fully
        comprehend as a finite being - a bonbu rather than a
        Buddha - at this point.

        What kind of transcendent powers are we talking about? The
        Larger Sutra makes it clear enough, even to our finite
        intellects:

        Buddhas are not bound by space, nor time, nor any
        materiality nor dimensionality whatsoever. Rather, space,
        time, materiality and dimensionality are all subject to
        their pure and unstained Buddhic desires. That includes -
        as the Larger Sutra points out - the capacity to create
        their sensate experience in the Pure Land according to their
        wishes, their capacity to travel infinite distances, to
        co-locate...to do all the kinds of things we see and imagine
        in science fiction movies...and more that we cannot even
        begin to imagine right now.

        It also includes the ability to read sentient beings like a
        book, seeing through all the layers of density, of delusion,
        and of obscuration that not even the best of us can see
        through ourselves.

        All this transcendent power is wrapped up in pure
        Bodhisattvic intent - the intent of Amida Buddha to save all
        beings that need to be saved because they simply cannot save
        themselves.

        NamuAmidaButsu. I am grateful.

        Paul















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      • Shin02143@aol.com
        And here comes Netpaul again to give us his latest sermon. (yawn) gassho, Rick
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 4, 2005
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          And here comes Netpaul again to give us his latest sermon.
          (yawn)

          gassho,
          Rick
        • Aaron (Shoren) Boone
          I thank everyone for there responses. I even copied the What is Shin Buddhism? 24 Lessons by Professor Takamaro Shigaraki, retired President of Ryukoku
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 4, 2005
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            I thank everyone for there responses. I even copied the "What is Shin Buddhism?
            24 Lessons by Professor Takamaro Shigaraki, retired President of Ryukoku
            University, Kyoto, Japan" from that link supplied a while back.
             
            I've just had the opportunity to read it yet. I had been burned out trying to read seemingly circular logic of certain Shin texts. My eyes were beginning to glaze over. I have taken whole heartedly to Unno's Tannisho. I do love that book! and I will take it in slow chunks for a while. My Tokudo is not imminent so I have time.
             
            My only stress is with my beautiful gift of an Obutsudan. It was originally a Sokka Gakkai issue so it has the set up for a scroll. I have a beautiful Amida statue in the Nishi Honganji-ha style but he looks quite out of place. And the more I read, the more I "get" why the Omyogo is preferred. I sort of feel guilty that I am leaning towards an Omyogo as my Honzon. I was so blessed and lucky to come across my Amida statue. I may set up a Zushi (mini shrine) for the statue and try to acquire the Omyogo for my Obutsudan. BCA book store lists a lovely one on brocade for $34.00 but I have to get a hold of them and see if it's available. Then of course getting the funds. I have a couple of things I can sell if it works out. I still am working on finding all the little things that go with my Obutsudan like the offering dishes and a bell. I have "zen chimes" that sound nice but look and feel odd. Most of what I do have I have found at rummage sales and thrift shops. It has an eclectic look to it at the moment. It's become a hobby, finding things for it.
             
             
            Well again, everyone, thanks so much for your help. I think if I had a sensei I may drive them nuts! This way you all save this possible person some sanity.
             
            Gassho,
            Aaron (Hikaru) Boone
             
            P.S. "Hikaru" is the translation I found for Aaron.
             

            Shin02143@... wrote:
            And here comes Netpaul again to give us his latest sermon.
            (yawn)

            gassho,
            Rick



            The Primal Vow was established out of deep compassion for us who cannot become freed from the bondage of birth-and-death through any religious practice, due to the abundance of blind passion. Since its basic intention is to effect the enlightenment of such an evil one, the evil person who is led to true entrusting by Other Power is the person who attains birth in the Pure Land. Thus, even the good person attains birth, how much more so the evil person!

            Shinran Shonin


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          • Shin02143@aol.com
            ... Aaron, The Unno translation of Tannisho is, I think, the best. The language is very sympathetic and user friendly. Also, there is a good explanatory
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 4, 2005
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              In a message dated 12/4/05 7:02:56 PM, shoren108@... writes:


              I've just had the opportunity to read it yet. I had been burned out trying to read seemingly circular logic of certain Shin texts. My eyes were beginning to glaze over. I have taken whole heartedly to Unno's Tannisho.


              Aaron,
              The Unno translation of Tannisho is, I think, the best. The language
              is very sympathetic and "user friendly." Also, there is a good explanatory
              section at the end provided by Rev. Unno. Sometimes I even feel that all
              I need is the Tannisho. I know better, but I still feel that way on occasion.
              gassho,
              Rick
            • lotusaware
              Actually if you read the Larger Sutra carefully you will see that we go and return, not as Buddhas but as Bodhisattvas. Amida exists in timeless time as it
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 5, 2005
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                Actually if you read the Larger Sutra carefully you will see that we go and return, not as
                Buddhas but as Bodhisattvas. Amida exists in timeless time as it were so Amida and
                Dharmakara are one in eternal time, but in the relative world of history time appears to be
                linear and Dharmakara and Amida appear to be separated in time.

                The dynamic seems to be that all Buddhas are one as Enlightenment is not separate, and
                the Buddha that we are in Enlightenment (the Pure Land) IS AMIDA. It is that Buddha that
                we really are which is CALLING us from its life in the Pure Land. So the Buddha which we
                really are (Amida) is returning to Call us to our liberation. The Buddha lives in the Pure
                Land and the one "returning" is the Bodhisattva.

                Notice in the Larger Sutra there is a description of the life of a Bodhisattva, which is
                actually a description of the life of the historical Buddha, Sakyamuni. But it is expressed in
                archetypal terms because it is our story as well.

                In psychology we are told that every person in a dream is really an aspect of ourselves in
                dialogue with the awake self - and everything of which we are aware in life is like that.

                Row, row, row your boat,
                Gently down the stream.
                Merrily, merrily, merrily,
                Life is but a dream.

                Gassho,
                la (John)

                --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron \(Shoren\) Boone" <shoren108@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello folks,
                > This may be an odd question so bear with me. We seek the Dharma path to escape
                Samsara or the cycle of suffering in life, death and rebirth. Then we entrust ourselves to
                Amida's vow in which ALL beings in the 10 worlds are saved and are reborn in his land and
                become Buddhas. Then we, upon becoming Buddhas return to Samsara to save others.
                > Now, we try to escape Samsara, only to make the return trip anyway? Is there more to
                it? I thought Amida's vow saved everyone, and if so, who is left? Is the difference being
                instead of being lost to the currents of Samasara we have a Kayak and a map?
                > Just an odd thought I had at 2 in the morning.
                > Gassho,
                > Aaron
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Primal Vow was established out of deep compassion for us who cannot become
                freed from the bondage of birth-and-death through any religious practice, due to the
                abundance of blind passion. Since its basic intention is to effect the enlightenment of such
                an evil one, the evil person who is led to true entrusting by Other Power is the person who
                attains birth in the Pure Land. Thus, even the good person attains birth, how much more
                so the evil person!
                >
                > Shinran Shonin
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                > ---------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Personals
                > Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
                > See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals
                >
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