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9 pure lands

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  • leftcoast1962
    I was scanning the 3 sutras and doing some comparisons last night and i found that the larger sutra says that those who commit the 5 evil deeds are excluded
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 3 9:15 AM
      I was scanning the 3 sutras and doing some comparisons last night and
      i
      found that the larger sutra says that those who commit the 5 evil
      deeds
      are excluded from the 18th vow, which is the vow regarding recitation
      of the name. [the 19th and 20th vows don't exclude mention excluding
      those who commit the 5 deadly sins]. But then the meditation sutra
      says
      that recitation of the name is the practice for those who have
      committed the 10 wicked actions and the 5 deadly sins. So, the 2
      sutras
      seem to contradict themselves. does anyone know how jodoshishu
      reconciles this. it seems like the recitation of the name for those
      who
      are the most sinful would be based more upon the meditation than on
      the
      18th vow.

      The meditation Sutra also talks about 9 different "grades" within the
      pure land, and that those who have committed the 5 deadly sins and
      the
      10 evil acts will be born in the lowest of the 9 grades. This is
      something I haven't seen much about in jodoshinshu literature.
    • Shoren "the ever pesty"
      Wow! great question! I had wondered myself about this. In most things I ve read and been told at Temple is that the 18th Vow is the main source of my
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 3 8:56 PM
        Wow! great question! I had wondered myself about this. In most things I've read and been told at Temple is that the 18th Vow is the main source of my deliverance from samsara and that it washes away basically any sinful Karma due to it's power.
         
        I too would like to know if there is a "loop hole" or not in this. I do not think I did any of the "5" or the "10" nasties but then I'm not all that up to date on my evil Karma. I'd hate to have the bus show up and me not have "Exact Change".
         
        Aaron (Shoren) Boone

        leftcoast1962 <leftcoast1962@...> wrote:
        I was scanning the 3 sutras and doing some comparisons last night and
        i
        found that the larger sutra says that those who commit the 5 evil
        deeds
        are excluded from the 18th vow, which is the vow regarding recitation
        of the name. [the 19th and 20th vows don't exclude mention excluding
        those who commit the 5 deadly sins]. But then the meditation sutra
        says
        that recitation of the name is the practice for those who have
        committed the 10 wicked actions and the 5 deadly sins. So, the 2
        sutras
        seem to contradict themselves. does anyone know how jodoshishu
        reconciles this. it seems like the recitation of the name for those
        who
        are the most sinful would be based more upon the meditation than on
        the
        18th vow. 

        The meditation Sutra also talks about 9 different "grades" within the
        pure land, and that those who have committed the 5 deadly sins and
        the
        10 evil acts will be born in the lowest of the 9 grades. This is
        something I haven't seen much about in jodoshinshu literature.










        The Primal Vow was established out of deep compassion for us who cannot become freed from the bondage of birth-and-death through any religious practice, due to the abundance of blind passion. Since its basic intention is to effect the enlightenment of such an evil one, the evil person who is led to true entrusting by Other Power is the person who attains birth in the Pure Land. Thus, even the good person attains birth, how much more so the evil person!

        Shinran Shonin

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      • minxroberts@aol.com
        In regard to not being saved if we commit the ten evil deeds , maybe this was said to discourage us from commiting them.......I mean , if the sutra simply said
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 4 1:58 AM
          In regard to not being saved if we commit the ten evil deeds , maybe this was said to discourage us from commiting them.......I mean , if the sutra simply said ' Hey , commit the  five evil deeds , thats ok , you will still be saved '  then whats to stop people from commiting the deeds if they were so inclined ?
           
          Neil
        • Shin02143@aol.com
          ... Just remember, the Tannisho says those with faith in Amida are grasped, NEVER to be abandoned. Amida accepts us with all our imperfections and misdoings.
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 4 8:17 AM

            In a message dated 9/4/05 4:59:15 AM, minxroberts@... writes:



            In regard to not being saved if we commit the ten evil deeds , maybe this was said to discourage us from commiting them.......I mean , if the sutra simply said ' Hey , commit the  five evil deeds , thats ok , you will still be saved '  then whats to stop people from commiting the deeds if they were so inclined ?

             

            Neil



            Just remember, the Tannisho says those with faith in Amida are
            "grasped, NEVER to be abandoned." Amida accepts us with all our
            imperfections and misdoings. I think somewhere Shinran even said
            that despite our best intentions we commit the 5 evil deeds, but that
            does not exclude us from Amida's compassion.

            gassho,
            Rick
          • leftcoast1962
            The meditation sutra says that even those who commit the 5 deadly sins and the 10 evil acts are saved by reciting the nembutsu but they go to the lowest level
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 4 7:50 PM
              The meditation sutra says that even those who commit the 5 deadly
              sins and the 10 evil acts are saved by reciting the nembutsu but they
              go to the lowest level of the pure land [there are 9 levels]. The
              18th vow says those who commit the 5 deadly sins are excluded from
              amida's pure land. It's a curious contradiction.

              --- In shinlist@yahoogroups.com, Shin02143@a... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 9/4/05 4:59:15 AM, minxroberts@a... writes:
              >
              >
              > >
              > > In regard to not being saved if we commit the ten evil deeds ,
              maybe this
              > > was said to discourage us from commiting them.......I mean , if
              the sutra
              > > simply said ' Hey , commit the  five evil deeds , thats ok , you
              will still be
              > > saved '  then whats to stop people from commiting the deeds if
              they were so
              > > inclined ?
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > > Neil
              > >
              > >
              >
              > Just remember, the Tannisho says those with faith in Amida are
              > "grasped, NEVER to be abandoned." Amida accepts us with all our
              > imperfections and misdoings. I think somewhere Shinran even said
              > that despite our best intentions we commit the 5 evil deeds, but
              that
              > does not exclude us from Amida's compassion.
              >
              > gassho,
              > Rick
            • Clifton Ong
              Hi, the Contemplation Sutra and Larger Sutra may seem to contradict each other on the surface but here is what is written by Shinran Shonin at the end of the
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 5 4:42 AM
                Hi,
                the Contemplation Sutra and Larger Sutra may seem to
                contradict each other on the surface but here is what
                is written by Shinran Shonin at the end of the Chapter
                of Shinjin in the Kyogyoshinsho. As it's too long, i
                shall just paste the URL here:
                http://www.shinranworks.com/majorexpositions/kgssIII-119_123.htm

                In the "Notes on Inscription on Sacred Scrolls":
                It is stated in the Larger Sutra of Immeasurable Life:

                "If, when I attain Buddhahood, the sentient beings of
                the ten quarters, with sincere mind entrusting
                themselves, aspiring to be born in my land, and saying
                my Name perhaps even ten times, should not be born
                there, may I not attain the supreme enlightenment.
                Excluded are those who commit the five grave offenses
                and those who slander the right dharma.

                It is stated in the Larger Sutra of Immeasurable Life:
                the sutra that teaches the Tathagata's Forty-eight
                Vows.

                If, when I attain Buddhahood: "If, when I have
                attained Buddhahood."

                The sentient beings of the ten quarters: all the
                beings throughout the ten quarters.

                With sincere mind entrusting themselves: Sincere means
                true and real. "True and real; this is what sincere
                mind means. From the very beginning sentient beings,
                who are filled with blind passions, lack a mind true
                and real, a heart of purity, for they are possessed of
                defilements, evil, and wrong views. Entrusting is to
                be free of doubt, believing deeply and without any
                double-mindedness that the Tathagata's Primal Vow is
                true and real. This entrusting with sincere mind,
                then, is that arising from the Vow in which Amida
                urges every being throughout the ten quarters,
                "Entrust yourself to my Vow, which is true and real";
                it does not arise from the hearts and minds of foolish
                beings of self-power.

                Aspiring to be born in my land: "Out of the entrusting
                with sincere mind that is Other Power, aspire to be
                born in the Pure Land of happiness!"

                Saying my Name perhaps even ten times: In encouraging
                us to say the Name that embodies the Vow, the
                Tathagata added perhaps even to the words ten times to
                show that there is no set number of times the Name
                must be said and to teach sentient beings that there
                is no determined hour or occasion for saying it. Since
                we have been given this Vow by the Tathagata, we can
                take any occasion in daily life for saying the Name
                and need not wait to recite it at the very end of
                life; we should simply give ourselves up totally to
                the entrusting with sincere mind of the Tathagata.
                When persons realize this true and real shinjin, they
                enter completely into the compassionate light that
                grasps, never to abandon, and hence become established
                in the stage of the truly settled. Thus it is written.

                Should not be born there, may I not attain the supreme
                enlightenment: "If the person who has realized
                entrusting with sincere mind is not born in my Pure
                Land, may I not become a Buddha." This, the essential
                purport of the Primal Vow, can be found fully
                explained in the Essentials of Faith Alone. "Faith
                alone" is the heart that aspires solely to this true
                and real entrusting.

                Excluded are those who commit the five grave offenses
                and those who slander the right dharma: Excluded means
                that those who commit the five grave offenses are
                rejected and reveals how grave the evil of slandering
                the dharma is. By showing the gravity of these two
                kinds of wrongdoing, these words make us realize that
                all the sentient beings throughout the ten quarters,
                without a single exception, will be born in the Pure
                Land."

                With regards to the 9 grades of birth in the Pure
                Land, Shinran Shonin quotes from Donran Daishi's
                "Commentary on the Pure Land Treatise":
                "Although there are initially nine grades among those
                aspiring for birth, now [in the Pure Land] there are
                no distinctions whatsoever. It is like the waters of
                the Tzu and Sheng becoming one in taste upon entering
                the sea. How can this be conceived?"

                Hope this helps.

                Gassho,
                Clifton Dodatsu



                Gassho, Clifton Dodatsu Ong (Rev)

                Email: sanath_sg@...

                Homepage: http://shinmission_sg.tripod.com/index.html

                "Other Power is none other than the Tathagatha's Primal Vow" - Kyogyoshinsho





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