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Re: Territory & dead stones?

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  • Robert Jasiek
    ... What one really needs to mark are the scoring points on the board. If one liked to mark other things, one would have to use several stages of diagrams.
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 11, 1998
      > Now for my problem. When a game is over, you need to mark dead stones
      > and territory.

      What one really needs to mark are the scoring points on the board.
      If one liked to mark other things, one would have to use several
      stages of diagrams. E.g. with the Nihon Kiin 1989 rules and at the
      game end one might illustrate in the following order:

      1 - living stones (distinguished: uncapturable stones, capturable stones
      [but what about stones that are alive _and_ dead in case of incomplete
      and incorrect play?]), dead stones, eye points, dame (all distinguished)
      2 - stones of groups not in seki, stones of groups in seki, [optionally
      any remaining stones], points of territory (all distinguished)

      Not to mention extra troubles during the confirmation phase.
      AYCS, rules intricacies are not useful for SGF properties. One
      can still illustrate them by using labels, e.g. Stage 2 as above
      might be shown with N, S, T labels (for stones of groups not in seki,
      stones of groups in seki, points of territory). Or you offer three
      diagrams for these.

      > I believe that programs usually mark territory with TW[]
      > and TB[], and mark dead stones by placing a TB/TW marker over them
      > (since usually a dead stone is in the territory of the opponent).

      With some rule sets this can be reasonable. With most Japanese rule
      sets it is not.

      > there is one case I can think of where you have dead stones that are
      > *not* territory, and that's in an eye of a group in seki in Japanese
      > rules.

      Correct play would use the proper [encore] method of the exact Japanese
      rule set to capture the dead stone(s).

      > According to Japanese rules, it is dead and thus
      > worth one point to Black at the end of the game.

      It is only worth one point if being removed BEFORE the [completion of
      the]
      end of the game. Otherwise it remains within a group in seki, where
      there
      is no territory from which stones would be allowed to be removed.

      > If it were marked with "TB[]"

      With Japanese rules a mistake.

      > This wouldn't matter too much, but cgoban does
      > recognize seki and scores it correctly.

      See above.

      > It just doesn't know how to save
      > the scored poisition to an SGF file, so at the moment it (incorrectly)
      > labels the dead stone as territory.

      If you want to store the scored board points as well, you must not
      include any seki points (under Japanese rules). If the game ended as
      shown, then the dead stone in seki does not belong to territory,
      is not marked, and does not score at all.

      > So how do we mark this situation?

      Do not mark it. Players should have played it out correctly.

      Also see:
      --
      robert jasiek
      http://www.snafu.de/~jasiek/rules.html
      http://www.snafu.de/~jasiek/j1989com.html
      http://www.snafu.de/~jasiek/wagc.html
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