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Re: [sgf-std] illegal sgf (was: newbie questions about sgf 4 and 5)

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  • mikke
    ... I bet you know many common and uncommon violations against the standard. Do you keep them listed somewhere? Would it be possible to have a peek at that
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 11, 2002
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      > p.s. does someone know which programs add "S4" properties? This is a *big*
      > violation of the spec, which states that properties consist only of A-Z.
      > Files with "S4" properties are unreadable for many other applications. If you
      > know not only the program but the author as well, please contact him/her
      > about that issue.

      I bet you know many common and uncommon violations against the standard.
      Do you keep them listed somewhere? Would it be possible to have a peek at
      that list. The S4 property didn't bother my application but I guess that there is
      plenty of common violations that will.

      Regards,
      Mikael Thulin

      PS I have noticed that there are many files at jansteens homepage that contains
      illegal "variations", like ( ;B[me];W[ep](;B[eo];W[dp]);B[cp];W[do]). I have
      a hard time deciding on how to treat them. They are indeed broken. However
      the ones at jansteen can be fixed by just removing those illegal parenthesis. I
      not totally found of that as it might create an non valid record, in other cases.
      Does anyone know the origin of those files (application/user/etc). Any suggestion
      on how handle them, except throwing them away?
    • Arno
      ... Yes. But not so much because I coordinate the SGF work, but because I m the maintainer of the Go Teaching Ladder. People really use all kind of featues of
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 11, 2002
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        > I bet you know many common and uncommon violations against the standard.

        Yes. But not so much because I coordinate the SGF work, but because I'm
        the maintainer of the Go Teaching Ladder. People really use all kind of
        featues of their programs to make reviews. What I receive on a day to
        day basis at the GTL really gives a good overview of quirks of commonly
        used programs at the time.

        A short list made some time ago can be found at the bottom of
        http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/converting.html

        While property related errors (e.g. ;L[aa]L[bb] - a common error of e.g.
        GoWrite) are easy to deal with most of the time, variation handling is a
        nightmare. Especially WinMGT (all version until at least one year ago)
        among other programs had some serious bugs.

        A problem I see is that many programs don't handle adding/removing
        markup/variation correctly. It's not uncommon to find property ids
        without prop values, or empty variations.

        ** Another call to all software authors:
        ** PLEASE verify your program with SGFC.
        ** You can find SGFC at the web page (with source included).

        > Do you keep them listed somewhere? Would it be possible to have a peek at
        > that list. The S4 property didn't bother my application but I guess that there is
        > plenty of common violations that will.

        If I find the time, I could go over the original submitted SGF files for
        the teaching ladder. That surely is a big source of possible errors.

        > PS I have noticed that there are many files at jansteens homepage that contains
        > illegal "variations", like ( ;B[me];W[ep](;B[eo];W[dp]);B[cp];W[do]). I have
        > a hard time deciding on how to treat them. They are indeed broken. However

        AFAIK, the problem results from Jan's sgf2misc program. ISHI (.GO)
        format has "inline" variations (can't think of a better term), while SGF
        has "trailing" variations so to speak. The sgf2misc program doesn't
        bother and simply translates the starting/ending variation marks
        directly between the two fileformats, producing illegal SGF in the
        process. Simply ignoring the '()' is not correct (maybe it just looked
        like that?), as you would "import" the variation line into the main line.

        /Arno
      • David Fotland
        I ve seen many strange sgf files, and Many Faces can handle some of them. This includes: Missing initial semicolon in the root node Empty root node with setup
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 11, 2002
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          I've seen many strange sgf files, and Many Faces can handle some of them.

          This includes:

          Missing initial semicolon in the root node

          Empty root node with setup information in the second node

          Root node contains a move.

          AE and moves mixed in the same node. kogo's joseki dictionary does this,
          so it's important to handle it. I've seen nodes that look like
          W[bc]AE[bc]W[df] which looks like trying to correct a move with a dumb editor.
          I've seen variations that start with an AE that removes the previous move.

          Whitespace inside move properties W[ bc ]

          Nodes that contain more than one move

          Nodes that contain both AB/AW and moves

          AB and AW outside of the root node. I've seen some files that use AB and AW
          to make every move rather than B and W.

          FF[4] files that don't escape newlines in comments correctly

          It seems that there are some sgf editors out there that work at the sgf
          property level
          directly and don't enforce any of the rules.

          David Fotland



          At 10:20 AM 9/11/2002 +0200, mikke wrote:
          > > p.s. does someone know which programs add "S4" properties? This is a *big*
          > > violation of the spec, which states that properties consist only of A-Z.
          > > Files with "S4" properties are unreadable for many other applications.
          > If you
          > > know not only the program but the author as well, please contact him/her
          > > about that issue.
          >
          >I bet you know many common and uncommon violations against the standard.
          >Do you keep them listed somewhere? Would it be possible to have a peek at
          >that list. The S4 property didn't bother my application but I guess that
          >there is
          >plenty of common violations that will.
          >
          >Regards,
          >Mikael Thulin
          >
          >PS I have noticed that there are many files at jansteens homepage that
          >contains
          >illegal "variations", like ( ;B[me];W[ep](;B[eo];W[dp]);B[cp];W[do]). I have
          >a hard time deciding on how to treat them. They are indeed broken. However
          >the ones at jansteen can be fixed by just removing those illegal
          >parenthesis. I
          >not totally found of that as it might create an non valid record, in other
          >cases.
          >Does anyone know the origin of those files (application/user/etc). Any
          >suggestion
          >on how handle them, except throwing them away?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >SGF spec: http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/
          >Contact: Arno Hollosi <ahollosi@...>
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • mikke
          ... Thanks for your list. If anyone have for some reason saved a bundle of broken sgf-files I would be happy if you could mail them to me. Regards, Mikael
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 14, 2002
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            > I've seen many strange sgf files, and Many Faces can handle some of them.
            >
            > This includes:

            Thanks for your list.

            If anyone have for some reason saved a bundle of broken sgf-files I would be
            happy if you could mail them to me.

            Regards,
            Mikael Thulin
          • mikke
            ... Are these files available somewhere for easy download (as abundle)? Regards, Mikael Thulin
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 14, 2002
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              > > I bet you know many common and uncommon violations against the standard.

              > Yes. But not so much because I coordinate the SGF work, but because I'm
              > the maintainer of the Go Teaching Ladder. People really use all kind of
              > featues of their programs to make reviews. What I receive on a day to
              > day basis at the GTL really gives a good overview of quirks of commonly
              > used programs at the time.

              > If I find the time, I could go over the original submitted SGF files for
              > the teaching ladder. That surely is a big source of possible errors.

              Are these files available somewhere for easy download (as abundle)?

              Regards,
              Mikael Thulin
            • Arno Hollosi
              ... Here they are: http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/examples/faulty-sgf-files.tgz Stats: out of 180 sgf files submitted, 50 are included in the tarball. These 50
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 14, 2002
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                > > If I find the time, I could go over the original submitted SGF files for
                > > the teaching ladder. That surely is a big source of possible errors.
                >
                > Are these files available somewhere for easy download (as abundle)?

                Here they are:
                http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/examples/faulty-sgf-files.tgz

                Stats: out of 180 sgf files submitted, 50 are included in the tarball. These
                50 contain at least 1 (serious) error. Only about 50 out of 180 were without
                errors and warnings reported by SGFC. The remaining 100 had one of:
                * empty TM[] property
                * text AFTER game tree (strictly speaking this is an error)
                * property in wrong FF, e.g. CA, AP etc. in FF[1-3]

                Oddly enough, no SGF file was missing the ';' after the game start. Seems that
                this error has been fixed in most programs.

                /Arno

                p.s. if you are in doubt about why the file is included in the tarball and
                which errors it contains run it through SGFC.

                pp.s. 3 small notes:
                7694ooli.sgf: is FF4, but has lowercase letters in prop ID
                5925UxAz.sgf: some binary data there
                1189zdMh.sgf: is one of the files that contains that "S4" property.
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