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Re: Problem sets.

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  • David Fotland
    Many Faces will randomly change color and orientation in the next version. So I am rewriting all commentary to avoid use of color. For example, How does
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 27, 1998
      Many Faces will randomly change color and orientation in the
      next version. So I am rewriting all commentary to avoid
      use of color.

      For example, "How does black save his stones" becomes,
      "How do you save the marked stones".

      It's not too hard to change the commentary to avoid any
      mention of White or Black. Sometime you have to add
      some marks.

      I don't think sgf format needs to change for this.

      If I have time, I will grade the problems, and pick randomly
      according to the user's strength.

      One issue is the ease of copying the problems for other
      programs. The problems in Many Faces are copyrighted and used
      with permission. It might be better to use a private format to
      avoid copying. My own opinion is to use standard sgf and depend
      on people being honest. Any private format can be reverse
      engineered anyway. But the original Many Faces problems were
      in a private, compressed format.

      Because of the new format, and changing the commentary, I am
      reentering all of the old problems (a lot work, but my son
      is helping).

      David

      At 12:05 AM 12/28/98 +0100, you wrote:
      >From: Jens Yllman <jens.yllman@...>
      >
      > Hello again.
      >
      > Thanks for the ideas. I think it would be nice if we tried to use the same
      >"standard" for problem sets.
      >
      > I was thinking that my program should randomly pick a problem. And
      >randomly change the selected problem to be a black plays or white plays. To
      >make that work the commentry need to be setup to easely be changed
      >depending on black/white plays first. I don't know if you think it is
      >relevant or if such commentry suites the SGF format. I was thinking of
      >commentry like C[If %b plays 2 at 3 %w will play at 2 and win.]. This will
      >make it easy to put black and white in the right spot depending on who
      >plays first. It is not that hard to change the texts black and white
      >eather. So, what do you think.
      >
      > I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
      >
      > Jens Yllman
      >------------------------------------------------------------
      >Jens Yllman http://www.uniweb.se/~jens
      >
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    • William M. Shubert
      While I was away from my e-mail on vacation it looks like a discussion of problem sets in SGF showed up. It looks like it s over, but in any case, I have lots
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 5, 1999
        While I was away from my e-mail on vacation it looks like a discussion
        of problem sets in SGF showed up. It looks like it's over, but in any
        case, I have lots of problems stored in SGF and a set of shell scripts
        to manipulate them (sorry, they're copyright by other people so I can't
        distribute them). But in any case, I thought I'd include a few to show
        how I've been doing my SGF problem sets - it really does work out great.

        The first attachment is five life or death problems in a single SGF file
        from the problem set on floppy that Kiseido sells; it is important that
        your SGF reader does NOT show the "next move" in variations! Showing
        that will make the problem too easy. The second SGF file attached is the
        first problem from "Whole-Board Thinking in Joseki" (a great book, by
        the way). This shows a problem with lots of commentary, sometimes
        several nodes in a row with no moves but just information, so you can
        step through it and each node will give you another hint as to the
        proper answer.

        Hopefully these examples will be useful to anybody trying to figure out
        how you can nicely put problems into SGF files.
        --
        Bill Shubert (wms@...)
        http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
      • David Fotland
        Why not put the position in the root node? What does the SY[] property mean? Many Faces doesn t recognize it. You don t have a machine readable indication
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 5, 1999
          Why not put the position in the root node? What does the SY[] property
          mean? Many Faces doesn't recognize it. You don't have a machine
          readable indication of the correct answer (like TE[2]). I think it
          will be confusing to people that they can't just click where
          they think the answer is. They have to step forward a move to
          get the A-D labels, then click on the point where the answer is.

          I prefer to put the starting position in the root node, so they
          don't see an empty board first. If they want to see labels
          for choices they can turn on next move labelling, so I don't
          put labels in the problem. I prefer to have the answers as
          direct followers of the root node, without another node
          in between. I like having an property to indicate correct
          answer, so the computer can keep track of which problems
          have been answered correctly already. This enables the
          program to show the percent correct, and to avoid repeating
          problems that have already been solved correctly.

          David Fotland

          >
          >Hopefully these examples will be useful to anybody trying to figure out
          >how you can nicely put problems into SGF files.
          >--
          > Bill Shubert (wms@...)
          > http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
          >
          >
          >
          >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\tsumego-1,5.sgf"
          >
          >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\1-1.sgf"
          >
          >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\wms3.vcf"
          >
        • William M. Shubert
          SY was once part of the standard. You are right, I should get rid of it since it is no longer in the standard. Also, you are right, a machine readable
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 5, 1999
            SY was once part of the standard. You are right, I should get rid of it
            since it is no longer in the standard. Also, you are right, a machine
            readable indication of correct answer would be nice.

            The rest I think is just personal preference. In the tsumego problem I
            don't put anything in the root node because there are several problems in a
            single SGF file. I do it this way because I like it this way, and I wrote
            the problem-format-converter for my own use. The joseki problem has nothing
            in the root node because it is essentially a game frozen a few moves in,
            and games usually start with an empty board. Again, I did it this way
            because I like it - sometimes I want to back up and see the order of the
            moves as they appeared, because sometimes I can't figure out how the board
            got into this position. As for having to step forward to get the labels, I
            like that because I pick my move first without the labels, then if there is
            no label where I picked, I know I am way off and re-think the problem
            knowing that the solution is one of the labelled points. I never click
            where the answer is, when I do these problems I never use the mouse at all.
            With cgoban you can navigate the variations very easily with just a
            keyboard. Again, it is this way because I did it for myself and I like it
            this way.

            Basically, except for SY and TE, I don't think you can call the way I like
            it or the way you like it "wrong" or "right". Both ways you have a problem
            and a solution. Little things like whether the board appears in the root
            node, and whether you step to see the options or see them right away, are
            rather nitpicky.

            Maybe on the SGF web pages we could have a collection of problems, not
            really to solve, but just to see the different ways that problems may be
            presented with SGF? That could be useful both as templates for people
            trying to build problem sets, and also as test cases for SGF viewers so
            that programmers could make sure that their viewer/editor performs as the
            SGF author intended for every case. Does this sound good? If enough other
            people like this (and will contribute their own SGF problems done the way
            they like), then I'll clean up mine to get rid of SY and add TE and repost.

            David Fotland wrote:

            > From: David Fotland <fotland@...>
            >
            > Why not put the position in the root node? What does the SY[] property
            > mean? Many Faces doesn't recognize it. You don't have a machine
            > readable indication of the correct answer (like TE[2]). I think it
            > will be confusing to people that they can't just click where
            > they think the answer is. They have to step forward a move to
            > get the A-D labels, then click on the point where the answer is.
            >
            > I prefer to put the starting position in the root node, so they
            > don't see an empty board first. If they want to see labels
            > for choices they can turn on next move labelling, so I don't
            > put labels in the problem. I prefer to have the answers as
            > direct followers of the root node, without another node
            > in between. I like having an property to indicate correct
            > answer, so the computer can keep track of which problems
            > have been answered correctly already. This enables the
            > program to show the percent correct, and to avoid repeating
            > problems that have already been solved correctly.
            >
            > David Fotland

            --
            Bill Shubert (wms@...)
            http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
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