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Problem sets.

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  • Jens Yllman
    Hello again. Thanks for the ideas. I think it would be nice if we tried to use the same standard for problem sets. I was thinking that my program should
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 27, 1998
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      Hello again.

      Thanks for the ideas. I think it would be nice if we tried to use the same
      "standard" for problem sets.

      I was thinking that my program should randomly pick a problem. And
      randomly change the selected problem to be a black plays or white plays. To
      make that work the commentry need to be setup to easely be changed
      depending on black/white plays first. I don't know if you think it is
      relevant or if such commentry suites the SGF format. I was thinking of
      commentry like C[If %b plays 2 at 3 %w will play at 2 and win.]. This will
      make it easy to put black and white in the right spot depending on who
      plays first. It is not that hard to change the texts black and white
      eather. So, what do you think.

      I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

      Jens Yllman
      ------------------------------------------------------------
      Jens Yllman http://www.uniweb.se/~jens
    • David Fotland
      Many Faces will randomly change color and orientation in the next version. So I am rewriting all commentary to avoid use of color. For example, How does
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 27, 1998
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        Many Faces will randomly change color and orientation in the
        next version. So I am rewriting all commentary to avoid
        use of color.

        For example, "How does black save his stones" becomes,
        "How do you save the marked stones".

        It's not too hard to change the commentary to avoid any
        mention of White or Black. Sometime you have to add
        some marks.

        I don't think sgf format needs to change for this.

        If I have time, I will grade the problems, and pick randomly
        according to the user's strength.

        One issue is the ease of copying the problems for other
        programs. The problems in Many Faces are copyrighted and used
        with permission. It might be better to use a private format to
        avoid copying. My own opinion is to use standard sgf and depend
        on people being honest. Any private format can be reverse
        engineered anyway. But the original Many Faces problems were
        in a private, compressed format.

        Because of the new format, and changing the commentary, I am
        reentering all of the old problems (a lot work, but my son
        is helping).

        David

        At 12:05 AM 12/28/98 +0100, you wrote:
        >From: Jens Yllman <jens.yllman@...>
        >
        > Hello again.
        >
        > Thanks for the ideas. I think it would be nice if we tried to use the same
        >"standard" for problem sets.
        >
        > I was thinking that my program should randomly pick a problem. And
        >randomly change the selected problem to be a black plays or white plays. To
        >make that work the commentry need to be setup to easely be changed
        >depending on black/white plays first. I don't know if you think it is
        >relevant or if such commentry suites the SGF format. I was thinking of
        >commentry like C[If %b plays 2 at 3 %w will play at 2 and win.]. This will
        >make it easy to put black and white in the right spot depending on who
        >plays first. It is not that hard to change the texts black and white
        >eather. So, what do you think.
        >
        > I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
        >
        > Jens Yllman
        >------------------------------------------------------------
        >Jens Yllman http://www.uniweb.se/~jens
        >
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        >Moderator: Arno Hollosi <ahollosi@...>
        >
        >
      • William M. Shubert
        While I was away from my e-mail on vacation it looks like a discussion of problem sets in SGF showed up. It looks like it s over, but in any case, I have lots
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 5, 1999
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          While I was away from my e-mail on vacation it looks like a discussion
          of problem sets in SGF showed up. It looks like it's over, but in any
          case, I have lots of problems stored in SGF and a set of shell scripts
          to manipulate them (sorry, they're copyright by other people so I can't
          distribute them). But in any case, I thought I'd include a few to show
          how I've been doing my SGF problem sets - it really does work out great.

          The first attachment is five life or death problems in a single SGF file
          from the problem set on floppy that Kiseido sells; it is important that
          your SGF reader does NOT show the "next move" in variations! Showing
          that will make the problem too easy. The second SGF file attached is the
          first problem from "Whole-Board Thinking in Joseki" (a great book, by
          the way). This shows a problem with lots of commentary, sometimes
          several nodes in a row with no moves but just information, so you can
          step through it and each node will give you another hint as to the
          proper answer.

          Hopefully these examples will be useful to anybody trying to figure out
          how you can nicely put problems into SGF files.
          --
          Bill Shubert (wms@...)
          http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
        • David Fotland
          Why not put the position in the root node? What does the SY[] property mean? Many Faces doesn t recognize it. You don t have a machine readable indication
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 5, 1999
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            Why not put the position in the root node? What does the SY[] property
            mean? Many Faces doesn't recognize it. You don't have a machine
            readable indication of the correct answer (like TE[2]). I think it
            will be confusing to people that they can't just click where
            they think the answer is. They have to step forward a move to
            get the A-D labels, then click on the point where the answer is.

            I prefer to put the starting position in the root node, so they
            don't see an empty board first. If they want to see labels
            for choices they can turn on next move labelling, so I don't
            put labels in the problem. I prefer to have the answers as
            direct followers of the root node, without another node
            in between. I like having an property to indicate correct
            answer, so the computer can keep track of which problems
            have been answered correctly already. This enables the
            program to show the percent correct, and to avoid repeating
            problems that have already been solved correctly.

            David Fotland

            >
            >Hopefully these examples will be useful to anybody trying to figure out
            >how you can nicely put problems into SGF files.
            >--
            > Bill Shubert (wms@...)
            > http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
            >
            >
            >
            >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\tsumego-1,5.sgf"
            >
            >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\1-1.sgf"
            >
            >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\wms3.vcf"
            >
          • William M. Shubert
            SY was once part of the standard. You are right, I should get rid of it since it is no longer in the standard. Also, you are right, a machine readable
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 5, 1999
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              SY was once part of the standard. You are right, I should get rid of it
              since it is no longer in the standard. Also, you are right, a machine
              readable indication of correct answer would be nice.

              The rest I think is just personal preference. In the tsumego problem I
              don't put anything in the root node because there are several problems in a
              single SGF file. I do it this way because I like it this way, and I wrote
              the problem-format-converter for my own use. The joseki problem has nothing
              in the root node because it is essentially a game frozen a few moves in,
              and games usually start with an empty board. Again, I did it this way
              because I like it - sometimes I want to back up and see the order of the
              moves as they appeared, because sometimes I can't figure out how the board
              got into this position. As for having to step forward to get the labels, I
              like that because I pick my move first without the labels, then if there is
              no label where I picked, I know I am way off and re-think the problem
              knowing that the solution is one of the labelled points. I never click
              where the answer is, when I do these problems I never use the mouse at all.
              With cgoban you can navigate the variations very easily with just a
              keyboard. Again, it is this way because I did it for myself and I like it
              this way.

              Basically, except for SY and TE, I don't think you can call the way I like
              it or the way you like it "wrong" or "right". Both ways you have a problem
              and a solution. Little things like whether the board appears in the root
              node, and whether you step to see the options or see them right away, are
              rather nitpicky.

              Maybe on the SGF web pages we could have a collection of problems, not
              really to solve, but just to see the different ways that problems may be
              presented with SGF? That could be useful both as templates for people
              trying to build problem sets, and also as test cases for SGF viewers so
              that programmers could make sure that their viewer/editor performs as the
              SGF author intended for every case. Does this sound good? If enough other
              people like this (and will contribute their own SGF problems done the way
              they like), then I'll clean up mine to get rid of SY and add TE and repost.

              David Fotland wrote:

              > From: David Fotland <fotland@...>
              >
              > Why not put the position in the root node? What does the SY[] property
              > mean? Many Faces doesn't recognize it. You don't have a machine
              > readable indication of the correct answer (like TE[2]). I think it
              > will be confusing to people that they can't just click where
              > they think the answer is. They have to step forward a move to
              > get the A-D labels, then click on the point where the answer is.
              >
              > I prefer to put the starting position in the root node, so they
              > don't see an empty board first. If they want to see labels
              > for choices they can turn on next move labelling, so I don't
              > put labels in the problem. I prefer to have the answers as
              > direct followers of the root node, without another node
              > in between. I like having an property to indicate correct
              > answer, so the computer can keep track of which problems
              > have been answered correctly already. This enables the
              > program to show the percent correct, and to avoid repeating
              > problems that have already been solved correctly.
              >
              > David Fotland

              --
              Bill Shubert (wms@...)
              http://www.hevanet.com/wms/
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