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SGF & XML

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  • Arno Hollosi
    Hi there, reading Jan s email I remembered that I got several similar emails about XML in the past. It seems an XML DTD for board games is commonly needed.
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 8, 2000
      Hi there,

      reading Jan's email I remembered that I got several similar emails
      about XML in the past. It seems an XML DTD for board games is
      commonly needed.

      I've put an early draft of SGFML onto my web site.
      (Actually early means too-early-too-publish.)

      Have a look at: http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/xml/

      The DTD ist just there to describe the absolute essential stuff in
      order to have valid SGFML example files. So don't turn away in
      disgust. Everything is changeable :o)

      I've uploaded two examples: a fairly standard server game and a
      commented game from the GTL. Have a look.

      The sharp eyed among you might note that the example files were
      apparently created by SGFC - yes, I've added a quick and dirty
      SGF2XML routine to SGFC. However, this is even more alpha than
      the spec, so I don't publish it yet.

      Comments welcome.

      /Arno
    • vladdu@xxxxxxx.xxx
      Hello! As the original author of the mail mr van der Steen posted here from the computer-go mailing list, I am happy to see something is moving! :-) I was
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 9, 2000
        Hello!

        As the original author of the mail mr van der Steen posted here from the
        computer-go mailing list, I am happy to see something is moving! :-)

        I was about to write a sample draft DTD myself, but the one mr Hollosi has
        posted is much better.

        A first look at it brings up a question: Should the XML format mimic
        the SGF one, or should it use the new possibilities? What I mean is that
        a general "node" in SGF can correspond to several different in XML. The best
        example would be the initial node describing the game information. Of course,
        having a more or less exact match would make it possible to use both formats
        with the same tree structure...

        And a proposal for the name: 3 letter names are more useful as filename
        extensions, so what about XGF? could mean eXtended Game Format, or eXtrasmart
        Game Format... :-)

        cheers,
        /Vlad
      • Arno Hollosi
        ... I have uploaded SGFML version 0.02 at http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/xml/ Changes from V0.01: * changed many attributes from CDATA to more strict
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 15, 2000
          > From: vladdu@...
          > A first look at it brings up a question: Should the XML format mimic
          > the SGF one, or should it use the new possibilities? What I mean is that
          > a general "node" in SGF can correspond to several different in XML.

          I have uploaded SGFML version 0.02 at http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/xml/

          Changes from V0.01:

          * changed many attributes from "CDATA" to more strict definitions
          like "NMTOKEN", "ID", or "IDREF"

          * changed <game> to have a <gameheader> instead of <header> to define
          allowed elements within different headers

          * created two node types: <node> and <setup>.
          <setup> element from V0.01 was renamed to <addstone>

          * added <gameinfo> element - gameinfo elements have to be stored within it

          * added types to <source>: RECORD, COMMENT, FILE

          * more sophisticated <date>: contains <dateitem> now in order to list
          more than one date and periods of time

          * renamed <people> to <person> - looks more natural


          Comments welcome.
          /Arno
        • Vlad Dumitrescu
          ... Hi! It looks a lot better! I have one comment from my first look at the file.
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 17, 2000
            Arno Hollossi wrote:
            >I have uploaded SGFML version 0.02 at http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/xml/

            Hi! It looks a lot better!

            I have one comment from my first look at the file.

            <!ELEMENT sequence ( (node|setup)+, (sequence)* )>
            <!-- two node types: nodes and setup nodes -->
            <!ELEMENT node
            (move|gameinfo|markup|line|comment|title|annotate|value|property)* >
            <!ELEMENT setup
            (addstone|gameinfo|markup|line|comment|title|annotate|value|property)* >

            This definition allows a node to have several moves, gameinfos, comments and
            so on, which I suppose isn't wanted. Instead it might read something like:

            <!ELEMENT node (move?, gameinfo?, markup*, line*, comment?, title?,
            annotate?, value?, property) >
            <!ELEMENT setup (title?, gameinfo?, addstone?, markup*, line*, comment?,
            annotate?, value?, property?) >

            This restrains the order of the elements, but I don't think it's a big
            issue.

            regards,
            /Vlad
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          • ashleyfeniello
            ... from the ... ) ... Hollosi has ... mimic ... is that ... XML. The best ... Of course, ... both formats ... filename ... eXtrasmart ... Is anyone doing
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 23, 2002
              --- In sgf-std@y..., vladdu@... wrote:
              > Hello!
              >
              > As the original author of the mail mr van der Steen posted here
              from the
              > computer-go mailing list, I am happy to see something is moving! :-
              )
              >
              > I was about to write a sample draft DTD myself, but the one mr
              Hollosi has
              > posted is much better.
              >
              > A first look at it brings up a question: Should the XML format
              mimic
              > the SGF one, or should it use the new possibilities? What I mean
              is that
              > a general "node" in SGF can correspond to several different in
              XML. The best
              > example would be the initial node describing the game information.
              Of course,
              > having a more or less exact match would make it possible to use
              both formats
              > with the same tree structure...
              >
              > And a proposal for the name: 3 letter names are more useful as
              filename
              > extensions, so what about XGF? could mean eXtended Game Format, or
              eXtrasmart
              > Game Format... :-)
              >
              > cheers,
              > /Vlad

              Is anyone doing anything on this front?
            • Arno Hollosi
              ... Many people have asked about an XML version. Over 2 years ago a group of people set out to define such a file format (AFAIK up until now they only have
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 24, 2002
                > Is anyone doing anything on this front?

                Many people have asked about an XML version. Over 2 years ago a group of
                people set out to define such a file format (AFAIK up until now they only
                have produced a requirements document).

                I have dismissed XML until recently. Now, as I know core XML technologies by
                heart (because of my job), I think it is a good idea. Also, now I have the
                necessary knowledge of XML that I feel up to the task.

                Actually, one week ago (independent of Vlad's email) I set out to start
                define an XML format plus an API on top of the DOM. I don't want to present
                my ideas prematurely, because I'd don't want to waste everyone's time with
                unready rubbish.

                Give me three more weeks and I will show you what I have got.

                Btw, Vlad: I thought about naming it XGF just as you wrote your email ;o)

                /Arno

                p.s. please disregard SGFML (currently on the web site), I didn't have a clue
                about XML back then.

                --
                SL: http://senseis.xmp.net/ -- a pot of go at the end of the rainbow
                GTL: http://gtl.jeudego.org/ -- have your own games reviewed
                SGF: http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/ -- smart game file format
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