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Re: SOA Repositories

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  • Gervas Douglas
    Here is another article extract on registries which might interest you:
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 1, 2005
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      Here is another article extract on registries which might interest you:

      <<Yet the exciting new capabilities offered by web services arrive
      with some risk. An unplanned, broad adoption strategy opens companies
      to uncertainty and even potential anarchy:
      • How can enterprise architects make sure that the people who need the
      services will find them?
      • Is there a way to ensure that developers are not wasting time
      developing services that already exist?
      • How can management ensure that services comply with technology,
      business policies, and application standards?
      • Finally, how can IT and business leaders control how the services
      interoperate?
      Companies need to deploy web services within the framework of a
      service-oriented architecture. An SOA can coherently map business
      processes with enterprise applications, inspire integration and reuse
      of applications, and foster effective governance of services within
      the SOA — often at dramatically lower costs and with fewer resources.
      Yet enterprise architects implementing an SOA often realize a key
      ingredient is still missing: business service visibility and,
      therefore, control. If users cannot easily find these business
      services, the promise of SOA is largely lost. If developers cannot
      readily find and reuse services, they essentially don't exist.
      The solution is a platform-neutral, standards-based registry that
      publishes web services as SOA business services, ready for mapping and
      interoperability. By publishing services information, including
      capabilities and policy support, the business services registry
      becomes the overall system of record for the entire SOA. Conversations
      with numerous early adopters of SOA have shown that problems arise
      when this registry functionality is omitted.>>

      You can find the article in question at:

      http://www.looselycoupled.com/opinion/2005/clem-risk-gov0228.html

      Gervas


      --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne Thomas
      Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
      >
      > Vikas,
      >
      > You're correct that UDDI is not the right place to store service
      > artifacts. UDDI is a registry, not a repository. You use a variety of
      > repositories to store services artifacts, such as stylesheets,
      > subscriptions, shared keys, public keys, policies, WSDLs, schemas,
      > documentation, code modules, etc. A number of companies have expressed
      > an interest in setting up a single global repository within their
      > organization to host all these different types of artifacts, but I
      > just don't think that's realistic. One of the reasons why you need a
      > registry that's separate from the repository is that a registry
      > becomes a central index for finding all metadata and related artifacts
      > associated with a given service.
      >
      > Anne
      >
      >
      > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:06:35 -0800, Vikas Deolaliker <vikasd@y...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I too was confused about this as response to the original query
      for SOA
      > > repositories were all UDDI registries. There are multiple things
      that one
      > > would like to temporarily store in an SOA infrastructure like
      stylesheets,
      > > subscriptions, shared keys, public keys etc. I am not sure if UDDI
      registry
      > > is the right place for them. I think of UDDI as a place to store
      long lived
      > > WSDL, for short term WSDL (which btw WS-Addressing's EPR is
      turning out to
      > > be), some shared space or repository is needed. The SOA
      architecture should
      > > specify how one interacts with this, IMHO.
      > >
      > > VIkas
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Robin [mailto:it@m...]
      > > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:01 AM
      > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Re: SOA Repositories
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I was wondering what is the difference between a SOA registry and a
      > > SOA repository.
      > > I was aimed at believing that a registry was more something used at
      > > operation time, for the discovery and management of service
      endpoints.
      > > In contrast, a repository was more related to assets management,
      > > keeping track of relationships between services and applications but
      > > also offering full documentation of the services interfaces.
      > >
      > > I would like to place Systinet on the registry side but it seems that
      > > people use it also as a repository.
      > >
      > > I would be really interested to know your opinions about this.
      > > Do you think that a registry is enough to manage an enterprise
      SOA? If
      > > not, what kind of repository are you using?
      > >
      > > Robin.
      > >
      > > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne Thomas
      > > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
      > > ....
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
      > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
      > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only vendor of
      > > which
      > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
      > > > >
      > > > > Gervas
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > >
      > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    • Anne Thomas Manes
      Billy Johnson and I conducted an out-of-band discussion on registries in response to my full disclosure comment, and we realised that we should probably
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 3, 2005
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        Billy Johnson and I conducted an out-of-band discussion on registries
        in response to my "full disclosure" comment, and we realised that we
        should probably share parts of it with the rest of the list.

        Billy asked me the following questions:

        > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
        > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in the
        > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
        >
        > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
        > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
        >
        > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
        > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry Server
        > solutions/vendors?
        >
        > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that are
        > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
        > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
        > semantics?

        It just so happens that I just completed a 68 page report on the
        registry market, which is why I have all this information cluttering
        up my head. (I apologize to Arun, but I'd never heard of GridScope
        before he posted his message.)

        The reason I responded to Gervas's orginal request for "SOA
        repositories" with a list of "SOA registries" is because he listed
        Systinet. You may note in my response I exclusively used the term
        registry rather than repository. I view registries and repositories as
        different things. UDDI compliant systems typically are registries, not
        repositories. A registry is an index (it points to stuff), but it
        doesn't actually host metadata files, such as WSDL, XML Schema, and
        WS-Policy files. A repository hosts and provides content management
        for various types of metadata.

        The Infravio registry is both a registry and a general-purpose
        metadata repository. The Blue Titan registry also provides a
        repository for WSDL files and Blue Titan contracts (policy
        definitions). There are a handful of ebXML compliant
        registry/repositories out there, including ebxmlrr, freebXML, Sino,
        and XENI. If you're using ebXML, you should investigate these options,
        but otherwise I wouldn't bother. Adobe and XENOS provide content
        management systems based on an ebXML repository, but I don't think of
        these products as SOA registries or repositories.

        But typically, when discussing issues such as SOA management and
        governance, I think of UDDI-based registries. I view UDDI support as
        crucial because it provides a standard, interoperable protocol for
        accessing the registry. An SOA registry provides a center point of
        control for an SOA environment, and therefore many different systems
        must access the registry. A standard protocol is required.

        And yes -- you are correct that Systinet is head-and-shoulders above
        the rest of the UDDI-based registry server market. I attribute that
        position to the fact that Systinet is the only vendor that has
        consistently invested in building a top-notch registry product since
        the release of the UDDI v1 spec in September 2000. More than a dozen
        vendors implemented UDDI v2 products in 2001, but most vendors
        redirected their efforts into other projects in early 2002 (when UDDI
        fell into the trough of disillusionment). Even at Systinet, we
        considered shifting the registry developers to other projects, but in
        the end we decided to stick with it. (I was still there at the time.)
        That decision started to pay off in early 2003, when bleeding edge web
        services users started realizing they needed a registryto help manage
        their increasingly chaotic environments. Systinet now has hundreds for
        registry customers, and registry accounts for 60+% of Systinet's
        revenues.

        Systinet's most serious competition right now is Digital Evolution.
        Digev started investing in registry technology in 2002/2003 -- when
        most everyone else was turning away from the market. Digev's
        competitive advantage is tight integration with a web services and
        security management solution. Digev has a really strong provisioning
        and management solution. But Digev has not invested in business-level
        discovery, SOA governance, and service lifecycle management
        applications, though, which is Systinet's significant competitive
        advantage.

        Integration between registry and web services management (WSM) is
        extremely important, and for this reason, the Digev product is worth
        investigating. Systinet doesn't provide its own WSM product -- but
        Systinet has developed partnerships with a number of WSM vendors --
        both hardware and software -- including AmberPoint, Actional, HP,
        Layer 7, Reactivity, and Service Integrity. And since Systinet is 100%
        UDDI compliant, integration with other products is pretty straight
        forward. The integration between Systinet and AmberPoint is
        particularly noteworthy.

        If you're investigating registries, I also recommend that you look at
        Blue Titan and Infravio. Neither of these registries are UDDI
        compliant (which I view as a serious disadvantage), but Blue Titan
        does support UDDI import and export, and Infravio provides partial
        support for the UDDI v3 Inquiry API.

        I recommend looking at Blue Titan because I think their WSM solution
        is very good -- definitely one of the best on the market.
        Unfortunately, the Blue Titan registry is designed exclusively to
        support the requirements of the WSM solution, not to provide a
        general-purpose registry. As I said earlier, the registry tools are
        quite cryptic. The bigger concern is that it doesn't support UDDI and
        therefore can't be integrated with other development or management
        tools without developing custom adapters.

        I recommend Infravio because it excels in lifecycle management. It
        also offers a pretty nice business-oriented discovery application --
        although it isn't nearly as versatile as Systinet's application.
        Infravio gives you one perspective -- that of a service. (Systinet's
        discovery application supports any perspective -- business,
        organization, department, service, interface, specification, schema,
        XML element, production status, accounting method, service level,
        policy, or pretty much any taxonomy of your choice.) But again, I cite
        the caveat that Infravio has limited support for UDDI -- in
        particular, it doesn't support the UDDI v2 APIs, which is what most
        tools use to access a registry today. (Both Systinet and Digev support
        UDDI v2 as well as v3).

        Now that more customers are asking about registries, I fully expect
        IBM to begin making more concerted investments into its registry
        product, although to date IBM's product is barely more than a minimal
        UDDI v3 implementation. I was very disappointed that the UDDI registry
        in WAS 6.0 did not include support for the UDDI v3 Subscription API.
        It's an essential feature for lifecycle management. The Web Services
        Explorer tool provides a visual UDDI browser for Eclipse, but it
        navigates the registry at the raw UDDI data model level. Personally, I
        love the UDDI data model ;-) but your average developer really doesn't
        want to deal with navigating through tModels and categoryBags.

        - Anne
      • honestbroker2005
        I have been following with some interest, your recent views on Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady. My issue is that you ducked
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 10, 2005
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          I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
          Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.

          My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly asked
          by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:

          a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
          hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
          this thread?

          b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
          Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?

          On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in 3-5
          years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
          analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
          infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
          it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
          these outstanding questions about you and your firm.

          Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
          company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
          that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
          Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
          which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in what
          they say.


          --- In service-orientated-
          architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
          > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in the
          > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
          >
          > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
          > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
          >
          > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
          > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
          Server
          > solutions/vendors?
          >
          > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that are
          > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
          > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
          > semantics?
          >
          > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
          > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
          >
          > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
          > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
          should
          > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
          > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
          > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
          > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
          > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they should
          > be placing on their recommendations.
          >
          > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
          > following questions:
          >
          > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
          to
          > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
          > this thread?
          >
          > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
          > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Billy Johnson
          >
          >
          > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne Thomas
          > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
          2002.
          > >
          > >
          > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
          > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
          > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
          > > > - Systinet
          > > > - Digital Evolution
          > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
          > > >
          > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
          supports
          > the
          > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI v3
          > > > Publish API, too.)
          > > >
          > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management product)
          > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
          > > >
          > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
          > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
          > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
          > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
          > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
          > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
          > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
          > > >
          > > > Open source UDDI v2:
          > > > - Apache jUDDI
          > > >
          > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
          > supplying
          > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
          > lifecycle
          > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
          > services
          > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
          > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
          > others).
          > > >
          > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management features,
          > and it
          > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
          > although it's
          > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity is
          > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution, X-
          > broker.
          > > >
          > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
          > registry,
          > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
          > but the
          > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
          > > >
          > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal development
          > tooling.
          > > >
          > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of UDDI
          > with no
          > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
          > explorer
          > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
          > cryptic
          > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
          > > >
          > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > > Anne
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
          > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Infravio do as well.
          > > > > Teresa
          > > > >
          > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
          > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
          > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only vendor
          > of which
          > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
          > > > >
          > > > > Gervas
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ________________________________
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > > >
          > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > Service.
          > > >
        • Gervas Douglas
          As honestbroker would you be comfortable about revealing your identity and possible commercial stake in this matter? Gervas Douglas Moderator ...
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 11, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            As "honestbroker" would you be comfortable about revealing your
            identity and possible commercial stake in this matter?

            Gervas Douglas
            Moderator

            --- In service-orientated-
            architecture@yahoogroups.com, "honestbroker2005"
            <honestbroker2005@y...> wrote:
            >
            > I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
            > Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.
            >
            > My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly
            asked
            > by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:
            >
            > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
            > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
            > this thread?
            >
            > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
            > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
            >
            > On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in
            3-5
            > years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
            > analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
            > infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
            > it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
            > these outstanding questions about you and your firm.
            >
            > Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
            > company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
            > that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
            > Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
            > which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in
            what
            > they say.
            >
            >
            > --- In service-orientated-
            > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
            > > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in
            the
            > > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
            > >
            > > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
            > > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
            > >
            > > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
            > > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
            > Server
            > > solutions/vendors?
            > >
            > > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that
            are
            > > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
            > > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
            > > semantics?
            > >
            > > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
            > > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
            > >
            > > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
            > > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
            > should
            > > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
            > > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
            > > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
            > > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
            > > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they
            should
            > > be placing on their recommendations.
            > >
            > > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
            > > following questions:
            > >
            > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
            > to
            > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed
            in
            > > this thread?
            > >
            > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
            > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Billy Johnson
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne
            Thomas
            > > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
            > 2002.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
            > > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
            > > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
            > > > > - Systinet
            > > > > - Digital Evolution
            > > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
            > > > >
            > > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
            > supports
            > > the
            > > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI
            v3
            > > > > Publish API, too.)
            > > > >
            > > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management
            product)
            > > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
            > > > >
            > > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
            > > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
            > > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
            > > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
            > > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
            > > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
            > > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
            > > > >
            > > > > Open source UDDI v2:
            > > > > - Apache jUDDI
            > > > >
            > > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
            > > supplying
            > > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
            > > lifecycle
            > > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
            > > services
            > > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
            > > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
            > > others).
            > > > >
            > > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management
            features,
            > > and it
            > > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
            > > although it's
            > > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity
            is
            > > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution,
            X-
            > > broker.
            > > > >
            > > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
            > > registry,
            > > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
            > > but the
            > > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
            > > > >
            > > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal
            development
            > > tooling.
            > > > >
            > > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of
            UDDI
            > > with no
            > > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
            > > explorer
            > > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
            > > cryptic
            > > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
            > > > >
            > > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
            > > > >
            > > > > Regards,
            > > > > Anne
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
            > > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Infravio do as well.
            > > > > > Teresa
            > > > > >
            > > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
            > > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
            > > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only
            vendor
            > > of which
            > > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Gervas
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ________________________________
            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-
            architecture/
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > > Service.
            > > > >
          • JP Morgenthal
            Honestbroker2005, I believe Anne has stated her affiliation with Systinet satisfactorily given the types of statements she is making about their offering. If
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 11, 2005
            • 0 Attachment

              Honestbroker2005,

               

              I believe Anne has stated her affiliation with Systinet satisfactorily given the types of statements she is making about their offering.  If she were making investment recommendations, I would agree she should answer the questions you are asking.  As for your statement about Gartner, their analysts may not have a financial stake in the company, but it’s questionable where you will end up in their quadrant if you don’t buy their services.  Not exactly the essence of objectivity in my book.

               

              That said, I will address your specific questions regarding the ESB market.  Even Gartner, who’s opinion you seem to respect as the creator of the ESB market, states that pure-play ESB will go away in favor of a 2nd generation of ESB’s that have more integration features in them and that are truly hosts for services being deployed.  Having had first-hand experience in the ESB market working on the sales-oriented messaging, I can tell you that the value proposition for this software is the same for any asynchronous reliable-messaging software, such as MQSeries.  ESB just adds a few more features that make it faster to develop message-based applications, such as Web Services.  However, until the ESB actually becomes the container for the service, it’s not much of a service bus, but it is an effective messaging bus.

               

              As for service registries, these are a key component of any SOA.  However, my personal opinion is the UDDI is the blind, deaf and dumb cousin of the type of registry that is required to deliver real value to any SOA.  Systinet has been leading with a UDDI message that concerns me because I believe the underlying metamodel for UDDI is it’s greatest limitation as it makes it incredibly hard to work with and lacks fundamental specifications for utilization of each component of the metamodel.  For example, you can use a tModel to represent data that belongs in a serviceInfo.  However, Systinet’s offerings goes beyond UDDI to incorporate governance, policy and quality-of-service information making their offering a more useful tools for SOA development.  Hence, for them, straight UDDI is not their limiting factor, which is why I believe Anne finds them leading over other implementations.  Additionally, and I can’t find my references to this, but I believe I have questioned them on alternative query interfaces other than UDDI to which they said they did have alternative interfaces for manipulating their registry.  If so, then their product is far more useful a component in helping to create SOA than any of the other registries that are out there. 

               

                          And, as for my affiliations, I have none at this time.  I was a leading analyst on EAI, XML & Java up until ’99.  I have been focusing heavily on the requirements for SOA and metadata management in my own consulting practice, of which the registry is a key point of overlap between those two areas.

               

              JP

               

               

              Check out my latest blog entry

               

              JP Morgenthal
              Managing Director

              Ethink Systems, Inc.
              12110 Sunset Hills Road, Suite 450
              Reston, VA 20190

              morgenthaljp@...
              IM: chiefethink (AIM)
              http://www.ethinksystems.com

              tel:
              fax:
              mobile:

              (703) 648-1520
              (703) 648-1523
              (703) 554-5301

               

              Add me to your address book...

              Want a signature like this?

               


              From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com [mailto: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of honestbroker2005
              Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 11:37 AM
              To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Burton Group Anne Thomas Manes Possible Conflict of Interest?

               


              I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
              Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.

              My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly asked
              by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:

              a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
              hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
              this thread?

              b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
              Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?

              On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in 3-5
              years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
              analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
              infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
              it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
              these outstanding questions about you and your firm.

              Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
              company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
              that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
              Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
              which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in what
              they say.


              --- In service-orientated-
              architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
              > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in the
              > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
              >
              > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
              > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-) 
              >
              > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
              > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
              Server
              > solutions/vendors?
              >
              > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that are
              > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
              > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
              > semantics?
              >
              > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
              > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
              >
              > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
              > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
              should
              > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
              > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
              > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
              > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
              > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they should
              > be placing on their recommendations.
              >
              > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
              > following questions:
              >
              > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
              to
              > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
              > this thread?
              >
              > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
              > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Billy Johnson
              >
              >
              > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com , Anne Thomas
              > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
              2002.
              > >
              > >
              > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
              > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
              > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
              > > > - Systinet
              > > > - Digital Evolution
              > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
              > > >
              > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
              supports
              > the
              > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI v3
              > > > Publish API, too.)
              > > >
              > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management product)
              > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
              > > >
              > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
              > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
              > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
              > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
              > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
              > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
              > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
              > > >
              > > > Open source UDDI v2:
              > > > - Apache jUDDI
              > > >
              > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
              > supplying
              > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
              > lifecycle
              > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
              > services
              > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
              > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
              > others).
              > > >
              > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management features,
              > and it
              > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
              > although it's
              > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity is
              > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution, X-
              > broker.
              > > >
              > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
              > registry,
              > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
              > but the
              > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
              > > >
              > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal development
              > tooling.
              > > >
              > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of UDDI
              > with no
              > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
              > explorer
              > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
              > cryptic
              > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
              > > >
              > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
              > > >
              > > > Regards,
              > > > Anne
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
              > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Infravio do as well.
              > > > > Teresa
              > > > >
              > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
              > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
              > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository?  The only vendor
              > of which
              > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
              > > > >
              > > > > Gervas
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >  ________________________________
              > > > >  Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
              > > > >
              > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > > >
              > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              > > >





            • Anne Thomas Manes
              Dear honestbroker , I did, in fact, reply privately to Billy Johnson (goodoleibmguy), who had the courtesy to disclose his real name and his affiliation. I
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 11, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear "honestbroker",

                I did, in fact, reply privately to Billy Johnson (goodoleibmguy), who
                had the courtesy to disclose his real name and his affiliation. I
                didn't think it was necessary to respond to the entire list, but if
                you insist, I will.

                First, I'd like to make it clear that I view my integrity as my most
                important asset. It's much more valuable to me than any stock I might
                own. My opinion cannot be bought or sold. Burton Group also has a very
                strict vendor-independence policy. See
                http://www.burtongroup.com/about/burtonfaqs.asp#policy.

                Second, I don't recall expressing my "views" on Gartner in print, and
                certainly not in this thread. So let me do so now. I have great
                respect for Daryl Plummer, Roy Schulte, and their teams. Most of my
                clients subscribe to Gartner research, and I think Burton Group
                research nicely complements Gartner research. Perhaps you refer to my
                comments regarding the fact that Gartner is pretty much responsible
                for defining the ESB market? I don't consider that to be a "view" --
                it's simply recognition of the power that Gartner has in the industry.
                I do disagree with Gartner's view that an ESB is a strategic
                investment. I think ESBs are tactical. See my blog entry for my views
                on the future of the ESB market:
                http://atmanes.blogspot.com/2005/04/future-of-esb-market.html. (Note:
                this past week BEA formally announced its ESB, AquaLogic.)

                Now, in response to Billy's two questions:

                I do have some Systinet stock, but I am not a major stockholder, and
                if the company goes public or gets acquired, I won't be able to retire
                off the proceeds. It might help me with a down payment on a new house.
                I and other members of my family have a portfolio of diversified
                investments in technology stocks, including IBM, MSFT, ORCL, BEAS,
                SUNW, SAP, and the usual suspects. I don't have stock in SOA Software,
                Blue Titan, or Infravio because these are not public companies, and I
                have never worked for them in a capacity that would entitle me to
                obtain stock. I do have a number of personal friends at all of these
                companies.

                Burton Group mainly serves large user companies (Global 500), although
                a number of small high-tech firms also subscribe to our research or
                hire us for strategy consulting, seminars, and such. Systinet, SOA
                Software, Blue Titan, and Infravio are all Burton Group clients, as
                are IBM, Microsoft, BEA, Oracle, and Sun. We interact quite frequently
                with SAP and webMethods, but we haven't convinced them to subscribe
                yet. As is clearly stated in Burton Group's vendor policy, a vendor's
                status as a client does not in any way influence what we say about the
                vendor in our research, and we do not write research for hire. If a
                vendor hires us to speak at a seminar, we speak about trends, issues,
                and customer requirements, but we do not speak about the vendor's
                products in a for-hire seminar.

                People subscribe to our research to obtain a knowledgeable, unbiased,
                third-party opinion that can cut through the vendor hype and spin. As
                analysts, people pay us for our opinion, and we're not bashful about
                giving it. We do speak about vendor products in research, seminars,
                and conferences that we sponsor. (see
                http://www.burtongroup.com/catalyst/) We compare products all the
                time. We devise evaluation frameworks, and we apply those frameworks
                to the products. In most markets, there are too many evaluation
                criteria involved to produce an absolute ranking of vendor products,
                but the framework gives you a solid sense of which products excel in
                what areas.

                In the registry market, though, one vendor clearly stands out, and
                that's Systinet. I don't say that just because I have stock in the
                company. On the flip side, I not about to temper my comments about
                Systinet just because I'm a stockholder. I'm not alone in this
                opinion. Every analyst I know that studies the registry market agrees
                with me that Systinet is the undisputed leader. Systinet offers the
                best product, and it is the most financially sound. Of all the small
                registry players, Systinet has the most customers, the biggest
                pipeline, and the most OEM deals (including the BEA OEM deal that was
                announce this past week). I'm very confident that Systinet isn't going
                to go away any time soon.

                Let's take anther example. I (foolishly) still have a fair amount of
                SUNW stock, but it's not about to influence what I say about Sun's
                products. For example, I'm not about to talk up Java Enterprise System
                (JES). I'd be happy to tell what I think is good about JES (low price,
                good directory, good identity management), and what I think is not so
                good about it (everything else). Likewise I will speak favorably about
                Solaris 10, because I think it's a great operating system.

                Best regards,
                Anne

                On 6/11/05, Gervas Douglas <gervasdouglas@...> wrote:
                > As "honestbroker" would you be comfortable about revealing your
                > identity and possible commercial stake in this matter?
                >
                > Gervas Douglas
                > Moderator
                >
                > --- In service-orientated-
                > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "honestbroker2005"
                > <honestbroker2005@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
                > > Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.
                > >
                > > My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly
                > asked
                > > by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:
                > >
                > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
                > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                > > this thread?
                > >
                > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                > >
                > > On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in
                > 3-5
                > > years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
                > > analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
                > > infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
                > > it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
                > > these outstanding questions about you and your firm.
                > >
                > > Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
                > > company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
                > > that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
                > > Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
                > > which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in
                > what
                > > they say.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In service-orientated-
                > > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
                > > > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in
                > the
                > > > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
                > > >
                > > > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
                > > > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
                > > >
                > > > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
                > > > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
                > > Server
                > > > solutions/vendors?
                > > >
                > > > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that
                > are
                > > > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
                > > > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
                > > > semantics?
                > > >
                > > > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
                > > > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
                > > >
                > > > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
                > > > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
                > > should
                > > > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
                > > > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
                > > > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
                > > > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
                > > > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they
                > should
                > > > be placing on their recommendations.
                > > >
                > > > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
                > > > following questions:
                > > >
                > > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
                > > to
                > > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed
                > in
                > > > this thread?
                > > >
                > > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                > > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks,
                > > >
                > > > Billy Johnson
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne
                > Thomas
                > > > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
                > > 2002.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
                > > > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                > > > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
                > > > > > - Systinet
                > > > > > - Digital Evolution
                > > > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
                > > supports
                > > > the
                > > > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI
                > v3
                > > > > > Publish API, too.)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management
                > product)
                > > > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
                > > > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
                > > > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
                > > > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
                > > > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
                > > > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
                > > > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Open source UDDI v2:
                > > > > > - Apache jUDDI
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
                > > > supplying
                > > > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
                > > > lifecycle
                > > > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
                > > > services
                > > > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
                > > > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
                > > > others).
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management
                > features,
                > > > and it
                > > > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
                > > > although it's
                > > > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity
                > is
                > > > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution,
                > X-
                > > > broker.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
                > > > registry,
                > > > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
                > > > but the
                > > > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal
                > development
                > > > tooling.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of
                > UDDI
                > > > with no
                > > > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
                > > > explorer
                > > > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
                > > > cryptic
                > > > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Regards,
                > > > > > Anne
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
                > > > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Infravio do as well.
                > > > > > > Teresa
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
                > > > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
                > > > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only
                > vendor
                > > > of which
                > > > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Gervas
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > ________________________________
                > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-
                > architecture/
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > > > Service.
                > > > > >
                >
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              • Jeff Schneider
                ... Dear Anonymous Honest Broker, What kind of idiot would bet their career on a product space that was invented less than 24 months ago? Holy smokes - it
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 11, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  >On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in 3-5
                  >years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
                  >analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
                  >infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
                  >it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
                  >these outstanding questions about you and your firm.

                  Dear Anonymous Honest Broker,
                  What kind of idiot would "bet their career" on a product space that was
                  invented less than 24 months ago? Holy smokes - it was only yesterday that
                  BEA acknowledged the space - Microsoft and IBM still don't have commercial
                  products out yet!!! And, by the way, big companies haven't made huge bets on
                  it - I can estimate the revenue of Cape Clear, Polar Lake, Sonic, Fiorrano
                  and tell you that their combined revenue doesn't come close to a "bet the
                  company" number.

                  I won't speak for Anne but I have had a wonderful time trashing the ESB
                  space. Gartner did a poor job of defining the space and Sonic (and friends)
                  did an even poorer job supporting WS protocols (out of the chute) to
                  differentiate it from a traditional messaging/JMS/EAI product. IMHO, vendors
                  rushed to market under the ESB umbrella without a new vision for computing.
                  Don't get me wrong - I think many of the aforementioned vendors have made
                  HUGE strides and are going to be contenders in the 'Composition Through
                  Integration' space.

                  Disclaimer:
                  I work for MomentumSI, an SOA consulting company. I have no shares of any of
                  the aforementioned companies but our company has long standing partnerships
                  with IBM, BEA, Microsoft, SAP and more recent partnerships with many SOA
                  startups, including ESB's.

                  Jeff Schneider
                • Anne Thomas Manes
                  ... I think perhaps you ve misunderstood my point. If you read my blog again (http://atmanes.blogspot.com/2005/04/future-of-esb-market.html), you ll notice
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 11, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In response to this paragraph:

                    > On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in 3-5
                    > years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
                    > analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
                    > infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
                    > it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
                    > these outstanding questions about you and your firm.

                    I think perhaps you've misunderstood my point. If you read my blog
                    again (http://atmanes.blogspot.com/2005/04/future-of-esb-market.html),
                    you'll notice that I'm not "attacking the ESB concept". In fact, I
                    say, "I think an ESB provides an important value-add today, but I view
                    it as a short term solution, and people should use it with caution."

                    To be clear, I don't think that the "big companies" have made a
                    mistake by investing in ESB functionality. I'm saying that the
                    *pure-play ESB market* will go away. And the primary reason it will go
                    away is that the "big companies" will subsume it. Just look at what
                    the big companies (I refer to them as "superplatform" vendors) are
                    doing:
                    - BEA just announced AquaLogic, which combines ESB, web services
                    management (WSM), and registry functionality.
                    - IBM currently provides ESB functionality via WBI Message Broker and
                    hefty service engagements, and it will be adding integrated ESB
                    functionality into WebSphere in the next release ("Pyxis").
                    - Microsoft has released the Beta 1 Release Candidate for "Indigo",
                    which is much more than an ESB, but it includes integrated ESB
                    functionality. (Microsoft does not call Indigo an ESB, and it doesn't
                    ever use the term "ESB". Instead Microsoft talks about "Connected
                    Systems" which addresses a much broader solution than ESB.)
                    - Oracle hasn't announced an "ESB" strategy to date, but it already
                    provides a BPEL-based composite application development tool, which is
                    one aspect of an ESB, although the Collaxa product doesn't support
                    heterogeneous protocol and interaction mediation. Oracle also just
                    recently acquired Oblix, and with it a WSM product, which I anticipate
                    will become integrated with the overall solution. WSM products are
                    similar to ESBs, and they can support heterogeneous protocol and
                    interaction mediation.

                    So my point is that within the next 3-5 years, you won't need to buy a
                    separate pure-play ESB product to enable composite applications that
                    support heterogeneous integration spanning multiple protocols and
                    multiple interaction patterns. This capability will be inherent in the
                    core application platforms.

                    This is a natural course of software evolution. As technology becomes
                    mainstream, its functionality gets subsumed by the superplatforms.
                    Look at past markets:
                    - Four years ago, there were more than a dozen pure-play web services
                    platform startups. The only two survivors are Systinet and Cape Clear
                    -- both of whom have morphed into different markets (registry and
                    ESB/EII respectively). Neither could have survived if they were still
                    competing directly with the superplatform vendors and the open source
                    community (Apache Axis) for the sale of SOAP engines as their primary
                    source of revenue.
                    - Ten years ago there were more than a dozen pure-play portal
                    startups. Vignette and PlumTree are still holding on, but this market
                    has also become completely dominated by the superplatform vendors.
                    - Twenty years ago there were about a dozen DBMS vendors. Now the
                    market is completely dominated by Microsoft, IBM, and Oracle. There
                    are no serious independent DBMS vendors except in the open source
                    community (e.g., MySQL).

                    Any pure-play ESB vendor that doesn't see and prepare for the
                    impending market consolidation will be in serious trouble. These
                    vendors will need to expand their horizons in order to survive.

                    The ESB, WSM, and registry markets are in transition and already
                    starting to merge into an SOA infrastructure (aka SOA "fabric")
                    market. BEA in is this space, as is Blue Titan. SOA Software will be
                    soon. Systinet and AmberPoint effectively partner to address this
                    space -- and they also partner with folks like BEA, Sonic, and Tibco.

                    The next big step in the SOA infrastructure market will be focused on
                    governance and policy management. Look for announcements from a number
                    of vendors this summer (or winter for those of you down under).

                    I haven't heard the pure-play ESB vendors talk much about governance,
                    management, and policy, though. And these are critical strategic
                    issues in an SOA. The pure-play ESB vendors tend to focus much more on
                    tactical connectivity issues. Perhaps that's why I'm somewhat
                    skeptical about the market. (That and the fact that many ESB solutions
                    require deployments of proprietary messaging protocols.)

                    One more point I'd like to make, and this is in response to many ESB
                    vendors' claims to provide "a complete SOA solution". This is a quote
                    from a research report that we'll publish next month:

                    "Any vendor that claims to provide a complete SOA solution either
                    doesn't understand the true scope of SOA or is probably trying to pass
                    off a proprietary solution in the guise of SOA."

                    Be warned. Treat vendor hype with skepticism. SOA is a hard thing.
                    It's at least as much about behavior as it is about technology. It
                    requires a deep planning and a sincere willingness to change. There is
                    no instant "complete" SOA solution.

                    Best regards,
                    Anne

                    On 6/10/05, honestbroker2005 <honestbroker2005@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
                    > Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.
                    >
                    > My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly asked
                    > by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:
                    >
                    > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
                    > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                    > this thread?
                    >
                    > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                    > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                    >
                    > On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in 3-5
                    > years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
                    > analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
                    > infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
                    > it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
                    > these outstanding questions about you and your firm.
                    >
                    > Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
                    > company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
                    > that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
                    > Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
                    > which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in what
                    > they say.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In service-orientated-
                    > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
                    > > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in the
                    > > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
                    > >
                    > > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
                    > > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
                    > > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
                    > Server
                    > > solutions/vendors?
                    > >
                    > > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that are
                    > > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
                    > > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
                    > > semantics?
                    > >
                    > > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
                    > > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
                    > >
                    > > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
                    > > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
                    > should
                    > > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
                    > > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
                    > > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
                    > > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
                    > > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they should
                    > > be placing on their recommendations.
                    > >
                    > > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
                    > > following questions:
                    > >
                    > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
                    > to
                    > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                    > > this thread?
                    > >
                    > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                    > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > >
                    > > Billy Johnson
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne Thomas
                    > > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
                    > 2002.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
                    > > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                    > > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
                    > > > > - Systinet
                    > > > > - Digital Evolution
                    > > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
                    > supports
                    > > the
                    > > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI v3
                    > > > > Publish API, too.)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management product)
                    > > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
                    > > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
                    > > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
                    > > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
                    > > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
                    > > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
                    > > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Open source UDDI v2:
                    > > > > - Apache jUDDI
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
                    > > supplying
                    > > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
                    > > lifecycle
                    > > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
                    > > services
                    > > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
                    > > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
                    > > others).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management features,
                    > > and it
                    > > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
                    > > although it's
                    > > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity is
                    > > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution, X-
                    > > broker.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
                    > > registry,
                    > > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
                    > > but the
                    > > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal development
                    > > tooling.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of UDDI
                    > > with no
                    > > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
                    > > explorer
                    > > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
                    > > cryptic
                    > > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Regards,
                    > > > > Anne
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
                    > > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Infravio do as well.
                    > > > > > Teresa
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
                    > > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
                    > > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only vendor
                    > > of which
                    > > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Gervas
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ________________________________
                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > > Service.
                    > > > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Matt Long
                    For the record... I’ve been involved in SOAP in one form or another [directly ... me to insert these opinions, which I feel represent the overwhelming
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 12, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment

                      For the record...

                      I’ve been involved in SOAP in one form or another [directly | indirectly] since its nexus, i.e., prior to ANY protocol stack, so allow me to insert these opinions, which I feel represent the overwhelming majority who has crossed paths with Anne Thomas Manes over the years.  Anne has been a highly beneficial ‘community asset’ for essentially all this time, whether at Sun, SysInet/Idoox, or Burton Group.  I cannot recount a single instance where her reputation has been challenged.  It is inconceivable to me that anyone would so incredulously infer such nonsense.   I can with clear conscience and without any reservation emphatically state the Anne has been a tremendous contributor to this space.  Likewise, I would assert that whatever benefits that Anne has received from her roles and work in this space are at a minimum deserved and doubtlessly earned.

                       

                      Actions and selflessness speak more than words.  Anne has stood the test of time by being highly knowledgeable, pragmatic, and engaged.  This is far more than can be said for the all-to-numerous self-proclaimed experts.  Anne is not only a recognized expert in this space, she is one of the few globally recognized experts.


                       

                      For the record…

                       

                      Matt Long

                       

                      (Formerly Phalanx Systems)



                      --
                      Matt Long
                      MV Squared Technologies
                      mlong@...
                      901-848-2640


                      --------- Original Message --------
                      From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                      To: "service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com" <service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Burton Group Anne Thomas Manes Possible Conflict of Interest?
                      Date: 11/06/05 04:53



                      I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
                      Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.

                      My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly asked
                      by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:

                      a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
                      hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                      this thread?

                      b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                      Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?

                      On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in 3-5
                      years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
                      analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
                      infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
                      it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
                      these outstanding questions about you and your firm.

                      Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
                      company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
                      that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
                      Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
                      which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in what
                      they say.


                      --- In service-orientated-
                      architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
                      > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in the
                      > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
                      >
                      > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
                      > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
                      >
                      > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
                      > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
                      Server
                      > solutions/vendors?
                      >
                      > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that are
                      > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
                      > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
                      > semantics?
                      >
                      > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
                      > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
                      >
                      > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
                      > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
                      should
                      > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
                      > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
                      > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
                      > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
                      > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they should
                      > be placing on their recommendations.
                      >
                      > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
                      > following questions:
                      >
                      > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
                      to
                      > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                      > this thread?
                      >
                      > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                      > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Billy Johnson
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne Thomas
                      > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
                      2002.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
                      > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                      > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
                      > > > - Systinet
                      > > > - Digital Evolution
                      > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
                      > > >
                      > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
                      supports
                      > the
                      > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI v3
                      > > > Publish API, too.)
                      > > >
                      > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management product)
                      > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
                      > > >
                      > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
                      > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
                      > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
                      > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
                      > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
                      > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
                      > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
                      > > >
                      > > > Open source UDDI v2:
                      > > > - Apache jUDDI
                      > > >
                      > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
                      > supplying
                      > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
                      > lifecycle
                      > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
                      > services
                      > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
                      > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
                      > others).
                      > > >
                      > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management features,
                      > and it
                      > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
                      > although it's
                      > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity is
                      > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution, X-
                      > broker.
                      > > >
                      > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
                      > registry,
                      > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
                      > but the
                      > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
                      > > >
                      > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal development
                      > tooling.
                      > > >
                      > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of UDDI
                      > with no
                      > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
                      > explorer
                      > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
                      > cryptic
                      > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
                      > > >
                      > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards,
                      > > > Anne
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
                      > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Infravio do as well.
                      > > > > Teresa
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
                      > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
                      > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only vendor
                      > of which
                      > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Gervas
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ________________________________
                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      > > >







                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/

                      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/










                      ________________________________________________
                      Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2
                    • Anne Thomas Manes
                      If you tune into Systinet s most recent registry marketing messages, you ll notice that the core message is about SOA governance, not about UDDI. UDDI takes
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 12, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        If you tune into Systinet's most recent registry marketing messages,
                        you'll notice that the core message is about SOA governance, not about
                        UDDI. UDDI takes center stage only when talking about enabling
                        interoperability. Many different applications and services must access
                        the registry, and UDDI is the industry-standard protocol for accessing
                        a registry.

                        As JP says, Systinet's registry is much more than a simple
                        implementation of the UDDI specification. That's what makes it the
                        industry leader. And the next release of the product will support
                        XQuery in addition to the UDDI protocol.

                        Anne

                        On 6/11/05, JP Morgenthal <morgenthaljp@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Honestbroker2005,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I believe Anne has stated her affiliation with Systinet satisfactorily given
                        > the types of statements she is making about their offering. If she were
                        > making investment recommendations, I would agree she should answer the
                        > questions you are asking. As for your statement about Gartner, their
                        > analysts may not have a financial stake in the company, but it's
                        > questionable where you will end up in their quadrant if you don't buy their
                        > services. Not exactly the essence of objectivity in my book.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > That said, I will address your specific questions regarding the ESB market.
                        > Even Gartner, who's opinion you seem to respect as the creator of the ESB
                        > market, states that pure-play ESB will go away in favor of a 2nd generation
                        > of ESB's that have more integration features in them and that are truly
                        > hosts for services being deployed. Having had first-hand experience in the
                        > ESB market working on the sales-oriented messaging, I can tell you that the
                        > value proposition for this software is the same for any asynchronous
                        > reliable-messaging software, such as MQSeries. ESB just adds a few more
                        > features that make it faster to develop message-based applications, such as
                        > Web Services. However, until the ESB actually becomes the container for the
                        > service, it's not much of a service bus, but it is an effective messaging
                        > bus.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > As for service registries, these are a key component of any SOA. However,
                        > my personal opinion is the UDDI is the blind, deaf and dumb cousin of the
                        > type of registry that is required to deliver real value to any SOA.
                        > Systinet has been leading with a UDDI message that concerns me because I
                        > believe the underlying metamodel for UDDI is it's greatest limitation as it
                        > makes it incredibly hard to work with and lacks fundamental specifications
                        > for utilization of each component of the metamodel. For example, you can
                        > use a tModel to represent data that belongs in a serviceInfo. However,
                        > Systinet's offerings goes beyond UDDI to incorporate governance, policy and
                        > quality-of-service information making their offering a more useful tools for
                        > SOA development. Hence, for them, straight UDDI is not their limiting
                        > factor, which is why I believe Anne finds them leading over other
                        > implementations. Additionally, and I can't find my references to this, but
                        > I believe I have questioned them on alternative query interfaces other than
                        > UDDI to which they said they did have alternative interfaces for
                        > manipulating their registry. If so, then their product is far more useful a
                        > component in helping to create SOA than any of the other registries that are
                        > out there.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > And, as for my affiliations, I have none at this time. I was a
                        > leading analyst on EAI, XML & Java up until '99. I have been focusing
                        > heavily on the requirements for SOA and metadata management in my own
                        > consulting practice, of which the registry is a key point of overlap between
                        > those two areas.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > JP
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Check out my latest blog entry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > JP Morgenthal
                        > Managing Director
                        >
                        > Ethink Systems, Inc.
                        > 12110 Sunset Hills Road, Suite 450
                        > Reston, VA 20190
                        >
                        >
                        > morgenthaljp@...
                        > IM: chiefethink (AIM)
                        > http://www.ethinksystems.com
                        >
                        >
                        > tel:
                        > fax:
                        > mobile:
                        >
                        > (703) 648-1520
                        > (703) 648-1523
                        > (703) 554-5301
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Add me to your address book...
                        >
                        > Want a signature like this?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        >
                        >
                        > From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of honestbroker2005
                        > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 11:37 AM
                        > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Burton Group
                        > Anne Thomas Manes Possible Conflict of Interest?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
                        > Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.
                        >
                        > My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly asked
                        > by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:
                        >
                        > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
                        > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                        > this thread?
                        >
                        > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                        > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                        >
                        > On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in 3-5
                        > years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
                        > analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
                        > infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
                        > it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
                        > these outstanding questions about you and your firm.
                        >
                        > Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
                        > company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
                        > that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
                        > Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
                        > which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in what
                        > they say.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In service-orientated-
                        > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
                        > > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in the
                        > > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
                        > >
                        > > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
                        > > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
                        > > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
                        > Server
                        > > solutions/vendors?
                        > >
                        > > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that are
                        > > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
                        > > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
                        > > semantics?
                        > >
                        > > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
                        > > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
                        > >
                        > > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
                        > > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
                        > should
                        > > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
                        > > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
                        > > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
                        > > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
                        > > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they should
                        > > be placing on their recommendations.
                        > >
                        > > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
                        > > following questions:
                        > >
                        > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
                        > to
                        > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                        > > this thread?
                        > >
                        > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                        > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                        > >
                        > > Thanks,
                        > >
                        > > Billy Johnson
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com,
                        > Anne Thomas
                        > > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
                        > 2002.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
                        > > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                        > > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
                        > > > > - Systinet
                        > > > > - Digital Evolution
                        > > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
                        > supports
                        > > the
                        > > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI v3
                        > > > > Publish API, too.)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management product)
                        > > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
                        > > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
                        > > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
                        > > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
                        > > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
                        > > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
                        > > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Open source UDDI v2:
                        > > > > - Apache jUDDI
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
                        > > supplying
                        > > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
                        > > lifecycle
                        > > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
                        > > services
                        > > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
                        > > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
                        > > others).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management features,
                        > > and it
                        > > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
                        > > although it's
                        > > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity is
                        > > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution, X-
                        > > broker.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
                        > > registry,
                        > > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
                        > > but the
                        > > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal development
                        > > tooling.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of UDDI
                        > > with no
                        > > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
                        > > explorer
                        > > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
                        > > cryptic
                        > > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Regards,
                        > > > > Anne
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
                        > > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Infravio do as well.
                        > > > > > Teresa
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
                        > > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
                        > > > > > To:
                        > service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA
                        > Repositories
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only vendor
                        > > of which
                        > > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Gervas
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ________________________________
                        > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > > > > >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > >
                        > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > > Service.
                        > > > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Anne Thomas Manes
                        One last point I want to make about this topic because it represents slander against my company as well as myself. (i.e., given these outstanding questions
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 12, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          One last point I want to make about this topic because it represents
                          slander against my company as well as myself. (i.e., "given these
                          outstanding questions about you and your firm")

                          All published Burton Group research is reviewed at a minimum by all
                          members within a research team (my team includes 8 people), and often
                          also by the research chair and analysts from other research teams.
                          Therefore all published research represents the consensus of the
                          group, not an individual's personal opinion.

                          My blog represents my own opinion. Any comments I make on these
                          discussion lists represents my own opinion, too.

                          Best regards

                          On 6/11/05, Anne Thomas Manes <atmanes@...> wrote:
                          > Dear "honestbroker",
                          >
                          > I did, in fact, reply privately to Billy Johnson (goodoleibmguy), who
                          > had the courtesy to disclose his real name and his affiliation. I
                          > didn't think it was necessary to respond to the entire list, but if
                          > you insist, I will.
                          >
                          > First, I'd like to make it clear that I view my integrity as my most
                          > important asset. It's much more valuable to me than any stock I might
                          > own. My opinion cannot be bought or sold. Burton Group also has a very
                          > strict vendor-independence policy. See
                          > http://www.burtongroup.com/about/burtonfaqs.asp#policy.
                          >
                          > Second, I don't recall expressing my "views" on Gartner in print, and
                          > certainly not in this thread. So let me do so now. I have great
                          > respect for Daryl Plummer, Roy Schulte, and their teams. Most of my
                          > clients subscribe to Gartner research, and I think Burton Group
                          > research nicely complements Gartner research. Perhaps you refer to my
                          > comments regarding the fact that Gartner is pretty much responsible
                          > for defining the ESB market? I don't consider that to be a "view" --
                          > it's simply recognition of the power that Gartner has in the industry.
                          > I do disagree with Gartner's view that an ESB is a strategic
                          > investment. I think ESBs are tactical. See my blog entry for my views
                          > on the future of the ESB market:
                          > http://atmanes.blogspot.com/2005/04/future-of-esb-market.html. (Note:
                          > this past week BEA formally announced its ESB, AquaLogic.)
                          >
                          > Now, in response to Billy's two questions:
                          >
                          > I do have some Systinet stock, but I am not a major stockholder, and
                          > if the company goes public or gets acquired, I won't be able to retire
                          > off the proceeds. It might help me with a down payment on a new house.
                          > I and other members of my family have a portfolio of diversified
                          > investments in technology stocks, including IBM, MSFT, ORCL, BEAS,
                          > SUNW, SAP, and the usual suspects. I don't have stock in SOA Software,
                          > Blue Titan, or Infravio because these are not public companies, and I
                          > have never worked for them in a capacity that would entitle me to
                          > obtain stock. I do have a number of personal friends at all of these
                          > companies.
                          >
                          > Burton Group mainly serves large user companies (Global 500), although
                          > a number of small high-tech firms also subscribe to our research or
                          > hire us for strategy consulting, seminars, and such. Systinet, SOA
                          > Software, Blue Titan, and Infravio are all Burton Group clients, as
                          > are IBM, Microsoft, BEA, Oracle, and Sun. We interact quite frequently
                          > with SAP and webMethods, but we haven't convinced them to subscribe
                          > yet. As is clearly stated in Burton Group's vendor policy, a vendor's
                          > status as a client does not in any way influence what we say about the
                          > vendor in our research, and we do not write research for hire. If a
                          > vendor hires us to speak at a seminar, we speak about trends, issues,
                          > and customer requirements, but we do not speak about the vendor's
                          > products in a for-hire seminar.
                          >
                          > People subscribe to our research to obtain a knowledgeable, unbiased,
                          > third-party opinion that can cut through the vendor hype and spin. As
                          > analysts, people pay us for our opinion, and we're not bashful about
                          > giving it. We do speak about vendor products in research, seminars,
                          > and conferences that we sponsor. (see
                          > http://www.burtongroup.com/catalyst/) We compare products all the
                          > time. We devise evaluation frameworks, and we apply those frameworks
                          > to the products. In most markets, there are too many evaluation
                          > criteria involved to produce an absolute ranking of vendor products,
                          > but the framework gives you a solid sense of which products excel in
                          > what areas.
                          >
                          > In the registry market, though, one vendor clearly stands out, and
                          > that's Systinet. I don't say that just because I have stock in the
                          > company. On the flip side, I not about to temper my comments about
                          > Systinet just because I'm a stockholder. I'm not alone in this
                          > opinion. Every analyst I know that studies the registry market agrees
                          > with me that Systinet is the undisputed leader. Systinet offers the
                          > best product, and it is the most financially sound. Of all the small
                          > registry players, Systinet has the most customers, the biggest
                          > pipeline, and the most OEM deals (including the BEA OEM deal that was
                          > announce this past week). I'm very confident that Systinet isn't going
                          > to go away any time soon.
                          >
                          > Let's take anther example. I (foolishly) still have a fair amount of
                          > SUNW stock, but it's not about to influence what I say about Sun's
                          > products. For example, I'm not about to talk up Java Enterprise System
                          > (JES). I'd be happy to tell what I think is good about JES (low price,
                          > good directory, good identity management), and what I think is not so
                          > good about it (everything else). Likewise I will speak favorably about
                          > Solaris 10, because I think it's a great operating system.
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          > Anne
                          >
                          > On 6/11/05, Gervas Douglas <gervasdouglas@...> wrote:
                          > > As "honestbroker" would you be comfortable about revealing your
                          > > identity and possible commercial stake in this matter?
                          > >
                          > > Gervas Douglas
                          > > Moderator
                          > >
                          > > --- In service-orientated-
                          > > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "honestbroker2005"
                          > > <honestbroker2005@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
                          > > > Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart lady.
                          > > >
                          > > > My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions directly
                          > > asked
                          > > > by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:
                          > > >
                          > > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue to
                          > > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in
                          > > > this thread?
                          > > >
                          > > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                          > > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                          > > >
                          > > > On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go away in
                          > > 3-5
                          > > > years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally respected
                          > > > analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on this
                          > > > infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their career on
                          > > > it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept, given
                          > > > these outstanding questions about you and your firm.
                          > > >
                          > > > Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but thier
                          > > > company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any company
                          > > > that they or their family members have a financial interest in.
                          > > > Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of impropriety,
                          > > > which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe in
                          > > what
                          > > > they say.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In service-orientated-
                          > > > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy" <goodoleibmguy@y...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears that
                          > > > > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in
                          > > the
                          > > > > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
                          > > > > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
                          > > > > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based Registry
                          > > > Server
                          > > > > solutions/vendors?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures that
                          > > are
                          > > > > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do they
                          > > > > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue of
                          > > > > semantics?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
                          > > > > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see above).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure" corporate
                          > > > > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective firms)
                          > > > should
                          > > > > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and issue
                          > > > > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure statements.
                          > > > > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on the
                          > > > > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can have a
                          > > > > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they
                          > > should
                          > > > > be placing on their recommendations.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to ask the
                          > > > > following questions:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family continue
                          > > > to
                          > > > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies discussed
                          > > in
                          > > > > this thread?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship with
                          > > > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this thread?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thanks,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Billy Johnson
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne
                          > > Thomas
                          > > > > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from 2001 -
                          > > > 2002.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
                          > > > > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
                          > > > > > > - Systinet
                          > > > > > > - Digital Evolution
                          > > > > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
                          > > > supports
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the UDDI
                          > > v3
                          > > > > > > Publish API, too.)
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management
                          > > product)
                          > > > > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
                          > > > > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
                          > > > > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
                          > > > > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
                          > > > > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
                          > > > > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
                          > > > > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Open source UDDI v2:
                          > > > > > > - Apache jUDDI
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of
                          > > > > supplying
                          > > > > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
                          > > > > lifecycle
                          > > > > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry. Many web
                          > > > > services
                          > > > > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet Registry
                          > > > > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity, and
                          > > > > others).
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management
                          > > features,
                          > > > > and it
                          > > > > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
                          > > > > although it's
                          > > > > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's. X-regisity
                          > > is
                          > > > > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management solution,
                          > > X-
                          > > > > broker.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package comprising
                          > > > > registry,
                          > > > > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are solid,
                          > > > > but the
                          > > > > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal
                          > > development
                          > > > > tooling.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation of
                          > > UDDI
                          > > > > with no
                          > > > > > > business level application features. They supply a registry
                          > > > > explorer
                          > > > > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to hide the
                          > > > > cryptic
                          > > > > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Regards,
                          > > > > > > Anne
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
                          > > > > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Infravio do as well.
                          > > > > > > > Teresa
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
                          > > > > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
                          > > > > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Repositories
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only
                          > > vendor
                          > > > > of which
                          > > > > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Gervas
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > ________________________________
                          > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-
                          > > architecture/
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > > > > > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > > > > Service.
                          > > > > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Gervas Douglas
                          Well, this is all getting a little heated and personal. I have never had the privilege of meeting Anne, but everyone I know who has speaks very highly of her.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 13, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Well, this is all getting a little heated and personal. I have never
                            had the privilege of meeting Anne, but everyone I know who has speaks
                            very highly of her. I notice "honestbroker" has been a bit coy about
                            revealing his/her identity/commercial interests having demanded the
                            information which set this thread off.

                            So as personal revelation has come to the fore, perhaps I better
                            explain who I am. I am the owner of this Group. I set up this Group
                            in February 2003 having set up a Jini/JavaSpaces Group. The latter I
                            set up because I was familiar with IntaMission's work and was helping
                            them out with a few projects; the technology looked very interesting,
                            particularly after reading Gelernter's Mirror Worlds (written yonks
                            ago but still compulsive reading). The J/JS Group settled down to a period of torpidity, partly because not much was happening on that front, mainly due to Sun's unexplained failure to promote what was very clever technology.

                            I set up this SOA Group because it was apparent to me that this was a
                            significant new wave to ride. This Group, however, has proved far
                            more active and interesting than the J/JS Group and we are up to 800
                            memebers as I write this. I must thank you all for your efforts in
                            making it successful. You can find out more about me on LinkedIn and you can find my c.v. in the Files section if you are interested in personal revelation. No, I have no SOA commercial interests to sway my judgment, although I am always open to offers from people who want to open doors in Europe!

                            Gervas
                            your humble moderator

                            --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Long"
                            <mlong@m...> wrote:
                            > For the record...

                            I've been involved in SOAP in one form or another [directly |
                            indirectly] since its nexus, i.e., prior to ANY protocol stack, so
                            allow me to insert these opinions, which I feel represent the
                            overwhelming majority who has crossed paths with Anne Thomas Manes
                            over the years. Anne has been a highly beneficial `community asset'
                            for essentially all this time, whether at Sun, SysInet/Idoox, or
                            Burton Group. I cannot recount a single instance where her reputation
                            has been challenged. It is inconceivable to me that anyone would so
                            incredulously infer such nonsense. I can with clear conscience and
                            without any reservation emphatically state the Anne has been a
                            tremendous contributor to this space. Likewise, I would assert that
                            whatever benefits that Anne has received from her roles and work in
                            this space are at a minimum deserved and doubtlessly earned.



                            Actions and selflessness speak more than words. Anne has stood the
                            test of time by being highly knowledgeable, pragmatic, and engaged.
                            This is far more than can be said for the all-to-numerous
                            self-proclaimed experts. Anne is not only a recognized expert in this
                            space, she is one of the few globally recognized experts.




                            For the record…



                            Matt Long



                            (Formerly Phalanx Systems)


                            --
                            Matt Long
                            MV Squared Technologies
                            mlong@...
                            901-848-2640
                          • David Sweigert
                            By the way. The Department of Homeland Security is getting religion about SOA. I helped them draft an RFI to the industry. If anyone is interested here is
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 13, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              By the way.

                              The Department of Homeland Security is getting
                              religion about SOA. I helped them draft an RFI to the
                              industry. If anyone is interested here is the info:

                              D -- Preliminary Identity Management Project
                              Requirements

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                              RFI 01 - Posted on Jun 04, 2005

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              General Information


                              Document Type: Presolicitation Notice
                              Solicitation Number: Reference-Number-RUIO-05-RFI01
                              Posted Date: Jun 01, 2005
                              Original Response Date: Jun 15, 2005
                              Current Response Date: Jun 15, 2005
                              Original Archive Date: Jun 30, 2005
                              Current Archive Date: Jun 30, 2005
                              Classification Code: D -- Information technology
                              services, including telecommunications services
                              Naics Code: 541512 -- Computer Systems Design Services


                              Contracting Office Address
                              DHS - Direct Reports, Office of the Chief Procurement
                              Officer, Office of Procurement Operations, Office of
                              the Chief Procurement Officer, Washington, DC, 20528
                              Description
                              The Department of Homeland Security, Office of the
                              Chief Information Officer (OCIO), Office of Applied
                              Technology, Information Sharing Division is seeking
                              information from industry relating to its need for
                              commercially available identity management products
                              and services. The Request for Information (RFI) is
                              part of a market research effort to assess innovative
                              solutions and industry capabilities that will best
                              address DHS needs. The purpose of this RFI is to
                              describe the general nature of the DHS need, the
                              information desired of industry, and to provide
                              instructions for submission of industry responses.
                              The DHS does not intend to award a contract on the
                              basis of this RFI notice or to otherwise pay for
                              information received in response to this request.
                              This RFI is being issued for information and planning
                              purposes only and does not constitute a solicitation.
                              The information contained in this RFI is based on
                              the best and most current information available to
                              date, is subject to change and is not binding on the
                              Government. Any significant changes will be
                              provided in subsequent synopsis, if required. A
                              high level draft requirements document is included for
                              information purposes only. This specific
                              information we are requesting interested parties to
                              complete and provide in their responses.
                              We appreciate your response. It will be used
                              solely by the DHS as market research. We will not
                              divulge individual responses to the RFI outside of the
                              DHS Requirements Team. All information received in
                              response to this notice that is marked proprietary
                              will be handled accordingly. Responses to this
                              notice will not be returned. If interested in
                              participating, please indicate your interest by
                              sending an email no later than 15 June 2005, 12:00
                              P.M. EST to Mr. Martin Smith, email:
                              martin.smith@.... The email should contain the
                              following subject line: RFI, Identity Management.
                              Use of any other subject line may delay your entry.
                              All valid email responses from prospective sources
                              must provide the return email, address, company name,
                              mailing address, telephone number, and point of
                              contact with the body of their response.
                              In addition, to assist in the acquisition strategy
                              development, please respond to the following
                              questions:
                              1) Is your business small business (Small
                              Disadvantaged, Women-Owned, Service Disabled Veteran
                              Owned, etc.)?
                              2) The attached ?Preliminary Identity Management
                              Project Requirements? document contains requirements
                              distributed for Request for Information Comment only.
                              A final version of this document will be applied to
                              guide project cost, schedule, and scope.
                              Respondents are requested to offer comment regarding
                              structure, level of detail, completeness, consistency
                              with best practice, and suitability for achieving
                              documented objectives for:
                              a. The General document
                              b. Mission and Objectives
                              c. Functional Requirements
                              d. Information Needs
                              e. Technical Requirements
                              f. Organizational Participation
                              g. Alternatives Considered
                              h. Project Considerations
                              3) Other pertinent information: EMAIL
                              RESPONSES WITHOUT THE AFOREMENTIONED INFORMATION WILL
                              NOT BE RECOGNIZED AS VALID. ALL PROSPECTIVE
                              OFFERORS MUST RESPOND TO THIS SYNOPSIS VIA EMAIL.
                              TELEPHONE REQUESTS FOR SOLICITATIONS AND/OR
                              INFORMATION WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED OR RETURNED.
                              Submit responses no later than 15 June 2005, 12:00P.M.
                              EST. Limit responses to no more than 20 pages. The
                              page limitation does not include the cover letter.
                              NO SOLICITATION AT THIS TIME. The Government
                              reserves the right to conduct oral capabilities
                              demonstrations that may be scheduled at a later date.
                              This is NOT a commitment on the part of the
                              Government to award a contract as a result of the
                              notice or pay for any information received.

                              TECHNICAL REQUIRMENTS TO FOLLOW AS ATTACHMENT TO RFI
                              Point of Contact
                              Daniel Dyer, Contracting Officer, Phone 202-772-9619,
                              Fax 202-205-9028, Email daniel.dyer@... - Daniel
                              Dyer, Contracting Officer, Phone 202-772-9619, Fax
                              202-205-9028, Email daniel.dyer@...
                              Place of Performance
                              Address: Washington, DC
                              Postal Code: 20528
                            • Sanjiva Weerawarana
                              I ve also been involved with Web services from Day 0 and met Anne first at the W3C Web Services Workshop in April 2000. I have always been incredibly impressed
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 13, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I've also been involved with Web services from Day 0 and met Anne first
                                at the W3C Web Services Workshop in April 2000. I have always been
                                incredibly impressed with her skills and integrity and have *never* felt
                                anything but ultimate respect for her.

                                She's the only person who's postings (on this list and elsewhere) I read
                                even when I don't have time to read email.

                                Sanjiva.

                                On Sun, 2005-06-12 at 13:00 +0000, Matt Long wrote:
                                > For the record...
                                >
                                > I’ve been involved in SOAP in one form or another [directly |
                                > indirectly] since its nexus, i.e., prior to ANY protocol stack, so
                                > allow me to insert these opinions, which I feel represent the
                                > overwhelming majority who has crossed paths with Anne Thomas Manes
                                > over the years. Anne has been a highly beneficial ‘community asset’
                                > for essentially all this time, whether at Sun, SysInet/Idoox, or
                                > Burton Group. I cannot recount a single instance where her reputation
                                > has been challenged. It is inconceivable to me that anyone would so
                                > incredulously infer such nonsense. I can with clear conscience and
                                > without any reservation emphatically state the Anne has been a
                                > tremendous contributor to this space. Likewise, I would assert that
                                > whatever benefits that Anne has received from her roles and work in
                                > this space are at a minimum deserved and doubtlessly earned.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Actions and selflessness speak more than words. Anne has stood the
                                > test of time by being highly knowledgeable, pragmatic, and engaged.
                                > This is far more than can be said for the all-to-numerous
                                > self-proclaimed experts. Anne is not only a recognized expert in this
                                > space, she is one of the few globally recognized experts.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For the record…
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Matt Long
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > (Formerly Phalanx Systems)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Matt Long
                                > MV Squared Technologies
                                > mlong@...
                                > 901-848-2640
                                >
                                >
                                > --------- Original Message --------
                                > From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                                > To: "service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com"
                                > <service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Burton Group Anne
                                > Thomas Manes Possible Conflict of Interest?
                                > Date: 11/06/05 04:53
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
                                > Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart
                                > lady.
                                >
                                > My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions
                                > directly asked
                                > by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:
                                >
                                > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family
                                > continue to
                                > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies
                                > discussed in
                                > this thread?
                                >
                                > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship
                                > with
                                > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this
                                > thread?
                                >
                                > On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go
                                > away in 3-5
                                > years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally
                                > respected
                                > analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on
                                > this
                                > infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their
                                > career on
                                > it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept,
                                > given
                                > these outstanding questions about you and your firm.
                                >
                                > Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but
                                > thier
                                > company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any
                                > company
                                > that they or their family members have a financial interest
                                > in.
                                > Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of
                                > impropriety,
                                > which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe
                                > in what
                                > they say.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In service-orientated-
                                > architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy"
                                > <goodoleibmguy@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears
                                > that
                                > > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players
                                > in the
                                > > UDDI-based Registry Server market.
                                > >
                                > > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is
                                > > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)
                                > >
                                > > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA
                                > > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based
                                > Registry
                                > Server
                                > > solutions/vendors?
                                > >
                                > > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures
                                > that are
                                > > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do
                                > they
                                > > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue
                                > of
                                > > semantics?
                                > >
                                > > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly
                                > > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see
                                > above).
                                > >
                                > > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure"
                                > corporate
                                > > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective
                                > firms)
                                > should
                                > > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and
                                > issue
                                > > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure
                                > statements.
                                > > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on
                                > the
                                > > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can
                                > have a
                                > > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they
                                > should
                                > > be placing on their recommendations.
                                > >
                                > > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to
                                > ask the
                                > > following questions:
                                > >
                                > > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family
                                > continue
                                > to
                                > > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies
                                > discussed in
                                > > this thread?
                                > >
                                > > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship
                                > with
                                > > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this
                                > thread?
                                > >
                                > > Thanks,
                                > >
                                > > Billy Johnson
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Anne
                                > Thomas
                                > > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from
                                > 2001 -
                                > 2002.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes
                                > > <atmanes@g...> wrote:
                                > > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:
                                > > > > - Systinet
                                > > > > - Digital Evolution
                                > > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also
                                > supports
                                > > the
                                > > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the
                                > UDDI v3
                                > > > > Publish API, too.)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management
                                > product)
                                > > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:
                                > > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)
                                > > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)
                                > > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)
                                > > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)
                                > > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)
                                > > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Open source UDDI v2:
                                > > > > - Apache jUDDI
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms
                                > of
                                > > supplying
                                > > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,
                                > > lifecycle
                                > > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry.
                                > Many web
                                > > services
                                > > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet
                                > Registry
                                > > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity,
                                > and
                                > > others).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management
                                > features,
                                > > and it
                                > > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --
                                > > although it's
                                > > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's.
                                > X-regisity is
                                > > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management
                                > solution, X-
                                > > broker.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package
                                > comprising
                                > > registry,
                                > > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are
                                > solid,
                                > > but the
                                > > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal
                                > development
                                > > tooling.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation
                                > of UDDI
                                > > with no
                                > > > > business level application features. They supply a
                                > registry
                                > > explorer
                                > > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to
                                > hide the
                                > > cryptic
                                > > > > UDDI data model from the developer.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Regards,
                                > > > > Anne
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones
                                > > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Infravio do as well.
                                > > > > > Teresa
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]
                                > > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34
                                > > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA
                                > Repositories
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only
                                > vendor
                                > > of which
                                > > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Gervas
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > ________________________________
                                > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > > > > >
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > > >
                                > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                > Terms of
                                > > Service.
                                > > > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________________________
                                > Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2
                                >
                                >
                                > ______________________________________________________________________
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                                >
                                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > Service.
                                >
                              • Vikas Deolaliker
                                +1. Vikas _____ From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com [mailto:service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sanjiva Weerawarana
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 13, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment

                                   

                                  +1.

                                   

                                  Vikas

                                   

                                   


                                  From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com [mailto: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Sanjiva Weerawarana
                                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:11 AM
                                  To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Burton Group Anne ThomasManes Possible Conflict of Interest?

                                   

                                  I've also been involved with Web services from Day 0 and met Anne first
                                  at the W3C Web Services Workshop in April 2000. I have always been
                                  incredibly impressed with her skills and integrity and have *never* felt
                                  anything but ultimate respect for her.

                                  She's the only person who's postings (on this list and elsewhere) I read
                                  even when I don't have time to read email.

                                  Sanjiva.

                                  On Sun, 2005-06-12 at 13:00 +0000, Matt Long wrote:
                                  > For the record...
                                  >
                                  > I’ve been involved in SOAP in one form or another [directly |
                                  > indirectly] since its nexus, i.e., prior to ANY protocol stack, so
                                  > allow me to insert these opinions, which I feel represent the
                                  > overwhelming majority who has crossed paths with Anne Thomas Manes
                                  > over the years.  Anne has been a highly beneficial ‘community asset’
                                  > for essentially all this time, whether at Sun, SysInet/Idoox, or
                                  > Burton Group. I cannot recount a single instance where her reputation
                                  > has been challenged.  It is inconceivable to me that anyone would so
                                  > incredulously infer such nonsense.   I can with clear conscience and
                                  > without any reservation emphatically state the Anne has been a
                                  > tremendous contributor to this space. Likewise, I would assert that
                                  > whatever benefits that Anne has received from her roles and work in
                                  > this space are at a minimum deserved and doubtlessly earned.
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > Actions and selflessness speak more than words. Anne has stood the
                                  > test of time by being highly knowledgeable, pragmatic, and engaged.
                                  > This is far more than can be said for the all-to-numerous
                                  > self-proclaimed experts.  Anne is not only a recognized expert in this
                                  > space, she is one of the few globally recognized experts.
                                  >
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > For the record…
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > Matt Long
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > (Formerly Phalanx Systems)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Matt Long
                                  > MV Squared Technologies
                                  > mlong@...
                                  > 901-848-2640
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >         --------- Original Message --------
                                  >         From: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com
                                  >         To: " service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com "
                                  >         < service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com >
                                  >         Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Burton Group Anne
                                  >         Thomas Manes Possible Conflict of Interest?
                                  >         Date: 11/06/05 04:53
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >         I have been following with some interest, your recent views on
                                  >         Gartner, ESBs and Web Services. Clearly you are a very smart
                                  >         lady.
                                  >        
                                  >         My issue is that you ducked answering the two questions
                                  >         directly asked
                                  >         by goodoleibmguy, so I will ask them again:
                                  >        
                                  >         a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family
                                  >         continue to
                                  >         hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies
                                  >         discussed in
                                  >         this thread?
                                  >        
                                  >         b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship
                                  >         with
                                  >         Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this
                                  >         thread?
                                  >        
                                  >         On your blog you say that the pure-play ESB market will go
                                  >         away in 3-5
                                  >         years. The ESB concept was invented by the universally
                                  >         respected
                                  >         analyst firm Gartner. Big companies have made huge bets on
                                  >         this
                                  >         infrastructure--including senior people who have bet their
                                  >         career on
                                  >         it. I think you have a lot of nerve to attack the ESB concept,
                                  >         given
                                  >         these outstanding questions about you and your firm.
                                  >        
                                  >         Gartner analysts may not be as smart or clever as you, but
                                  >         thier
                                  >         company policy is clear. Their analysts will not cover any
                                  >         company
                                  >         that they or their family members have a financial interest
                                  >         in.
                                  >         Gartner is crystal clear about even the perception of
                                  >         impropriety,
                                  >         which is why people can invest millions of dollars and believe
                                  >         in what
                                  >         they say.
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >         --- In service-orientated-
                                  >         architecture@yahoogroups.com, "goodoleibmguy"
                                  >         <goodoleibmguy@y...>
                                  >         wrote:
                                  >        

                                  >

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > Great post. According to your analysis below, it appears

                                  >         that
                                  >        
                                  > Systinet is head and shoulders above the rest of the players

                                  >         in the
                                  >        
                                  > UDDI-based Registry Server market.

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > Sounds like this is now a "market-of-one" which of itself is

                                  >        
                                  > worrisome for a whole bunch of interesting reasons...:-)

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > Anyway, is there some reason that your response to this "SOA

                                  >        
                                  > Repository" post is primarily centered on UDDI-based

                                  >         Registry
                                  >         Server
                                  >        
                                  > solutions/vendors?

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > Do registries and repositories in enterprise architectures

                                  >         that are
                                  >        
                                  > delivered through service-orientation play the same role? Do

                                  >         they
                                  >        
                                  > provide the same capabilities or is this primarily an issue

                                  >         of
                                  >        
                                  > semantics?

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > BTW: On a completely separate note, I commend you for openly

                                  >        
                                  > disclosing your conflict of interest WRT to Systinet (see

                                  >         above).
                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > In the full spirit of the "post-Enron-full-disclosure"

                                  >         corporate
                                  >        
                                  > landscape, ALL industry analysts (and their respective

                                  >         firms)
                                  >         should
                                  >        
                                  > be taking a page out of the financial analyst playbooks and

                                  >         issue
                                  >        
                                  > the typical "CNBC-like" financial analyst disclosure

                                  >         statements.
                                  >        
                                  > That way, the business and IT decision makers that rely on

                                  >         the
                                  >        
                                  > objective analysis and advice that these firms provide can

                                  >         have a
                                  >        
                                  > much more realistic perspective on just how much weight they

                                  >         should
                                  >        
                                  > be placing on their recommendations.

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > So with that digression on this thread, it's only fair to

                                  >         ask the
                                  >        
                                  > following questions:

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > a) Do you or any of the members of your immediate family

                                  >         continue
                                  >         to
                                  >        
                                  > hold shares of Systinet or any of the other companies

                                  >         discussed in
                                  >        
                                  > this thread?

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > b) Does your firm maintain an analyst/customer relationship

                                  >         with
                                  >        
                                  > Systinet or any of the other companies discussed in this

                                  >         thread?
                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > Thanks,

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > Billy Johnson

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  >

                                  >        
                                  > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com ,
                                  Anne

                                  >         Thomas
                                  >        
                                  > Manes <atmanes@g...> wrote:

                                  >        
                                  > >

                                  >        
                                  > > Full disclosure: I used to be the CTO of Systinet from

                                  >         2001 -
                                  >         2002.
                                  >        
                                  > >

                                  >        
                                  > >

                                  >        
                                  > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:04:59 -0500, Anne Thomas Manes

                                  >        
                                  > <atmanes@g...> wrote:

                                  >        
                                  > > > UDDI v3 compliant registries:

                                  >        
                                  > > > - Systinet

                                  >        
                                  > > > - Digital Evolution

                                  >        
                                  > > > - IBM (packaged with Websphere Application Server 6)

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Infravio's registry is based on ebXML, although it also

                                  >         supports
                                  >        
                                  > the

                                  >        
                                  > > > UDDI v3 Inquiry API. (The next release will support the

                                  >         UDDI v3
                                  >        
                                  > > > Publish API, too.)

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Blue Titan Network Director (a web services management

                                  >         product)
                                  >        
                                  > > > includes a registry. It does not support UDDI.

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > UDDI v2 compliant registries:

                                  >        
                                  > > > - Microsoft (packaged with Windows Server 2003)

                                  >        
                                  > > > - Oracle (packaged with Oracle 10g AS)

                                  >        
                                  > > > - BEA (packaged with WebLogic Server 8)

                                  >        
                                  > > > - Sun (available with JWSDP)

                                  >        
                                  > > > - SAP (packaged with NetWeaver 2004)

                                  >        
                                  > > > - webMethods (packaged with Fabric)

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Open source UDDI v2:

                                  >        
                                  > > > - Apache jUDDI

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Systinet are far ahead of the rest of the pack in terms

                                  >         of
                                  >        
                                  > supplying

                                  >        
                                  > > > business-oriented SOA applications (intuitive discovery,

                                  >        
                                  > lifecycle

                                  >        
                                  > > > management, SOA governance) running on the registry.

                                  >         Many web
                                  >        
                                  > services

                                  >        
                                  > > > management companies are integrating with Systinet

                                  >         Registry
                                  >        
                                  > > > (particularly AmberPoint, but also Actional, Reactivity,

                                  >         and
                                  >        
                                  > others).

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Infravio X-registry has very strong change management

                                  >         features,
                                  >        
                                  > and it

                                  >        
                                  > > > provides a reasonably intuitive discovery application --

                                  >        
                                  > although it's

                                  >        
                                  > > > much less powerful and extensible that Systinet's.

                                  >         X-regisity is
                                  >        
                                  > > > integrated with Infravio's web services management

                                  >         solution, X-
                                  >        
                                  > broker.

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Digital Evolution provide an integrated package

                                  >         comprising
                                  >        
                                  > registry,

                                  >        
                                  > > > management, and security. The administrative tools are

                                  >         solid,
                                  >        
                                  > but the

                                  >        
                                  > > > developer tools are pretty cryptic.

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Blue Titan registry is proprietary and has minimal

                                  >         development
                                  >        
                                  > tooling.

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > IBM's registry is pretty much a vanilla implementation

                                  >         of UDDI
                                  >        
                                  > with no

                                  >        
                                  > > > business level application features. They supply a

                                  >         registry
                                  >        
                                  > explorer

                                  >        
                                  > > > tool that plugs into Eclipse, but It does nothing to

                                  >         hide the
                                  >        
                                  > cryptic

                                  >        
                                  > > > UDDI data model from the developer.

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > The UDDI v2 registries are very raw.

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > Regards,

                                  >        
                                  > > > Anne

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:19 -0000, Teresa Jones

                                  >        
                                  > > > <teresa.jones@b...> wrote:

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Infravio do as well.

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Teresa

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > > -----Original Message-----

                                  >        
                                  > > > > From: Gervas Douglas [mailto:gervasdouglas@y...]

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Sent: 23 February 2005 17:34

                                  >        
                                  > > > > To: service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA

                                  >         Repositories
                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Does anyone know who sells a SOA Repository? The only

                                  >         vendor
                                  >        
                                  > of which

                                  >        
                                  > > > > I am aware, off the top of my head, is Systinet.

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Gervas

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > > ________________________________

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
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                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
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                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >         service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >        
                                  > > > >

                                  >        
                                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

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                                  >        
                                  > Service.

                                  >        
                                  > > >

                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >         Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
                                  >        
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                                  >
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