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Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Steve invites you to burn him

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  • Steve Jones
    ... Nope, stats and a couple of companies would be great, ideally companies that I ve actually heard of and not web development shops. ... In Machine to
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 1, 2010
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      On 30 July 2010 03:18, Nick Gall <nick.gall@...> wrote:
       

      Steve,


      If I listed a handful of references, then you'd ask "where are the stats to show they are not outliers?" I know all too well after all these years that NOTHING will convince you of anything. And I'm sure you feel the same way. :-)


      Nope, stats and a couple of companies would be great, ideally companies that I've actually heard of and not web development shops.
       

      The survey was done, I assume, by informationweek. But Gartner has done similar surveys that show REST growing steadily in our enterprise client base over the years.

      In Machine to Machine integration or as a pattern for Web development?  There really is a massive difference between the two scenarios.  I've seen the later but literally ZERO of the former.  Even on programmes which have had a strong REST ethic around the Web side of the programme the heavy lifting at the backend has been universally done with WS-*.

      I just find it odd that if REST really is growing that I've yet to bump into a single company doing it for integration.  I've even recommended REST a couple of times for information navigation scenarios at companies (where REST IMO is a good approach) but the response was "Huh?" followed by them using WS-*.  Seriously I mean I've had ZERO people mention REST to me as an integration approach in the last 5 years.  Web Development sure a few times (80% not actually doing REST but just calling it that) but M2M integration.... not ONCE.


      Steve
       

      -- Nick

      PS Gervas, Is this sig good enough? :-) 

      Nick Gall
      Phone: +1.781.608.5871
      Twitter: ironick
      AOL IM: Nicholas Gall
      Yahoo IM: nick_gall_1117
      MSN IM: (same as email)
      Google Talk: (same as email)
      Email: nick.gall AT-SIGN gmail DOT com
      Weblog: http://ironick.typepad.com/ironick/



      On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Steve Jones <jones.steveg@...> wrote:
       

      Yet the only reference in the article is someone using WS-* and only looking at REST.  It's a nice figure but where are the references?  The article reads like "look REST is simple, but the only guy who would go on record is doing the other stuff, but he is thinking about REST so that proves it".   Did you do the survey?

      Steve

      Sent from my iPad

      On 30 Jul 2010, at 01:38, Nick Gall <nick.gall@...> wrote:

       

      On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Steve Jones <jones.steveg@gmail.com> wrote:
      References?  I've dealt with a bunch in the last few years and see REST a couple of times and always limited to the web side.  Meanwhile I've seen huge, massive WS-* programmes in lots of different enterprises.  On the references side there are stacks for WS-* but I'm still struggling to find REST enterprise integration examples, but I look forward to reading them.


      But our take--supported by survey results and discussions with a wide range of stakeholders--is that many companies are moving forward with SOA implementations, though a significant number have decided to shift course and take the path of least resistance. In essence, that means building their SOAs on the Web, using Internet-delivered APIs, and swapping in more agile REST-based Web services as a simpler alternative to heavyweight SOAP-based Web services where appropriate. In fact, when asked to indicate their past, present, and estimated future use of SOAP-based Web services vs. REST-based Web services, respondents show a marked drop-off in use of SOAP, from 54% a year ago to a projected 42% in the next 18 months. The number primarily using or considering REST-based Web services is predicted to grow by a proportional amount, from 14% to 24% over the same time frame. 

      Slow but steady attrition for SOAP and slow but steady growth for REST...



    • David Stanek
      ... Is it possible that you don t run into REST because you are brought in to deal with WS-* projects. I would expect consultants that specialize in RESTful
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 1, 2010
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        On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 4:06 AM, Steve Jones <jones.steveg@...> wrote:


        I just find it odd that if REST really is growing that I've yet to bump into a single company doing it for integration.  I've even recommended REST a couple of times for information navigation scenarios at companies (where REST IMO is a good approach) but the response was "Huh?" followed by them using WS-*.  Seriously I mean I've had ZERO people mention REST to me as an integration approach in the last 5 years.  Web Development sure a few times (80% not actually doing REST but just calling it that) but M2M integration.... not ONCE.


        Is it possible that you don't run into REST because you are brought in to deal with WS-* projects. I would expect consultants that specialize in RESTful architecture to have the exact opposite experience as you.  They may even think that WS-* is a dying dinosaur of sorts :-)

        --
        David
        blog: http://www.traceback.org
        twitter: http://twitter.com/dstanek
      • Steve Jones
        ... Which is a nice comfortable view and maybe its true but if so they are hiding REST from the CIO and the business as well ;)
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 4, 2010
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          On 1 August 2010 14:56, David Stanek <dstanek@...> wrote:
           


          On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 4:06 AM, Steve Jones <jones.steveg@...> wrote:


          I just find it odd that if REST really is growing that I've yet to bump into a single company doing it for integration.  I've even recommended REST a couple of times for information navigation scenarios at companies (where REST IMO is a good approach) but the response was "Huh?" followed by them using WS-*.  Seriously I mean I've had ZERO people mention REST to me as an integration approach in the last 5 years.  Web Development sure a few times (80% not actually doing REST but just calling it that) but M2M integration.... not ONCE.


          Is it possible that you don't run into REST because you are brought in to deal with WS-* projects. I would expect consultants that specialize in RESTful architecture to have the exact opposite experience as you.  They may even think that WS-* is a dying dinosaur of sorts :-)


          Which is a nice comfortable view and maybe its true but if so they are hiding REST from the CIO and the business as well ;)


        • Nick Gall
          If you want references, here are job postings from monster.com requesting REST skills . For
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 4, 2010
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            If you want references, here are job postings from monster.com requesting REST skills. For example:

            Java Architect (Spring MVC, Hibernate, REST, Maven, ANT)

            Java Architect - Your IT skills are needed just about anywhere. But is it where you want to go? Imagine working for one of the nation's most respected companies. Making a strategic contribution. Receiving the rewards and recognition you deserve. Manpower Professional/COMSYS knows how and where to get you where you want to go.

            You are motivated. Driven. You get things done. You are passionate about technology and are up for a challenge. If this describes you, learn more about this rewarding opportunity.

            In this Java Architect position, you will have the opportunity to work on an exciting project with a large company, putting your communication and technical skills (Spring MVC, Hibernate, REST, Maven, ANT) to the test.



            Are you interested? The ideal Java Architect candidate will possess:

            • Expert Java skills
            • Spring MVC
            • Hibernate
            • REST
            • Maven
            • ANT

            You can see it. More challenging work. A more interesting work environment. The opportunity to use your finely honed skills to make a real difference. And to collect pay that reflects your talent and expertise. If this is what you see for yourself, you need to talk to Manpower Professional/COMSYS

            -- Nick

            Nick Gall
            Phone: +1.781.608.5871
            Twitter: ironick
            AOL IM: Nicholas Gall
            Yahoo IM: nick_gall_1117
            MSN IM: (same as email)
            Google Talk: (same as email)
            Email: nick.gall AT-SIGN gmail DOT com
            Weblog: http://ironick.typepad.com/ironick/


            On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Steve Jones <jones.steveg@...> wrote:
             

            Yet the only reference in the article is someone using WS-* and only looking at REST.  It's a nice figure but where are the references?  The article reads like "look REST is simple, but the only guy who would go on record is doing the other stuff, but he is thinking about REST so that proves it".   Did you do the survey?

            Steve

            Sent from my iPad

            On 30 Jul 2010, at 01:38, Nick Gall <nick.gall@...> wrote:

             

            On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Steve Jones <jones.steveg@gmail.com> wrote:
            References?  I've dealt with a bunch in the last few years and see REST a couple of times and always limited to the web side.  Meanwhile I've seen huge, massive WS-* programmes in lots of different enterprises.  On the references side there are stacks for WS-* but I'm still struggling to find REST enterprise integration examples, but I look forward to reading them.


            But our take--supported by survey results and discussions with a wide range of stakeholders--is that many companies are moving forward with SOA implementations, though a significant number have decided to shift course and take the path of least resistance. In essence, that means building their SOAs on the Web, using Internet-delivered APIs, and swapping in more agile REST-based Web services as a simpler alternative to heavyweight SOAP-based Web services where appropriate. In fact, when asked to indicate their past, present, and estimated future use of SOAP-based Web services vs. REST-based Web services, respondents show a marked drop-off in use of SOAP, from 54% a year ago to a projected 42% in the next 18 months. The number primarily using or considering REST-based Web services is predicted to grow by a proportional amount, from 14% to 24% over the same time frame. 

            Slow but steady attrition for SOAP and slow but steady growth for REST...


          • Anne Thomas Manes
            I concur with Mike. I ve done a few seminars on REST. Most people I talk to think that REST = POX/RPC over HTTP. They don t realize that REST is fundamentally
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 5, 2010
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              I concur with Mike. I've done a few seminars on REST. Most people I
              talk to think that REST = POX/RPC over HTTP. They don't realize that
              REST is fundamentally resource-oriented rather than object-oriented,
              they don't understand that the interface to a RESTful service is the
              set of resources that it exposes rather than the set of methods, and
              they don't have a clue about HATEOAS. In the last six months, only two
              of the clients I spoke with really understood what REST was before we
              started the conversation. Nonetheless, I think interest in REST is
              growing (based on the growing number of inquiries we're getting.)

              One of the key impediments to REST adoption is the dearth of tooling
              and frameworks that promote resource-orientation and hypermedia. Web
              frameworks are functional (although they typically don't discourage
              bad habits like stateful connections), but they really don't work for
              M2M interactions. JAX-RS is a basic framework for exposing objects as
              resources, but it's a flawed framework in terms of the tight binding
              between resources and objects, and it has very poor support for
              HATEOAS. Another key impediment to REST adoption is XML's lack of
              native support for hypermedia. People (inappropriately) presume that
              REST requires use of XML, and it's tough to return hyperlinks
              indicating the continuing application flow when using XML.

              The most frequent question I get regarding REST is how to implement
              end to end security. I reply by explaining that you secure RESTful
              interactions the same way you secure Web applications, but secure web
              apps typically involve a user entering a password. It gets more
              complicated when no human is involved.

              REST is likely to enjoy broader adoption when the mainstream vendors
              star providing RESTful frameworks (i.e., more than JAX-RS) and better
              end to end security mediation infrastructure for RESTful interactions.

              Anne

              On Friday, July 30, 2010, mglendin <mikeg@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Nick Gall <nick.gall@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Steve,
              >>
              >> If I listed a handful of references, then you'd ask "where are the stats to
              >> show they are not outliers?" I know all too well after all these years that
              >> NOTHING will convince you of anything. And I'm sure you feel the same way.
              >> :-)
              >>
              >> The survey was done, I assume, by informationweek. But Gartner has done
              >> similar surveys that show REST growing steadily in our enterprise client
              >> base over the years.
              >>
              >> -- Nick
              >>
              >
              > Nick/Steve,
              >
              > yes, the InformationWeek article is rather unscientific in its presentation of the statistics, and is also around 18 months old.
              >
              > But the first thing that struck me was that still that about 1/3 of the respondents were contructing their SOAs using something *other* than SOAP or REST, presumably MQSeries or similar, and this number was expected to remain pretty constant over the next 18 months. So the only reported movement was between SOAP and REST. This I find rather surprising, but also quite interesting! Shouldn't we be talking more about this other 1/3?
              >
              > The second point I would like to make is that it seems more likely that when people said they were using (or planning to use) REST, they really meant just RPC and POX over HTTP, i.e. what the Richardson Maturity Model calls "REST Level 0". This is emphatically *not* REST, as Roy Fielding and many others would forcibly tell you!
              >
              > In my experience, there is very little real understanding of REST within the industry at large. For example, I ran a conference workshop on REST a couple of months ago and although most of the 30+ attendees had *heard* of REST, none of them could actually say what it was!
              >
              > So I would like to ask you Nick how much evidence you have of the real adoption of REST for system-to-system communication, that is examples of fully hypermedia driven APIs conforming to all of the REST constraints?
              >
              > I suspect that today one could count the number of such systems worldwide on the fingers of one hand. Perhaps Steve has a point that the real *adoption* of "Web Services" has been much more rapid and pervasive than that of [true] REST, because it is much easier to achieve.
              >
              > Disregarding the pros and cons of the competing technical approaches for a moment, I think this points to a real need for REST to communicate its message more clearly so that it can be understood by the wider industry and to generate some form of tool support from the vendors.
              >
              > I think that the present "macho" attitude of many in the REST community who argue that "REST is so simple that you don't need tools" is rather unhelpful to the vast majority of practitioners who just want to get their job done with the minimum of fuss!
              >
              > And besides, I don't see how REST can be *that* simple when the real complexities of the design of hypermedia driven APIs do not seem to be fully understood and certainly not clearly explained, even by the experts!
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > -Mike Glendinning.
              >
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            • Jan Algermissen
              Anne, ... What do you mean by tight binding between resources and objects ? ... I do not think that frameworks actually can really do much in that regard.
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 5, 2010
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                Anne,

                On Aug 5, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Anne Thomas Manes wrote:

                > JAX-RS is a basic framework for exposing objects as
                > resources, but it's a flawed framework in terms of the tight binding
                > between resources and objects,

                What do you mean by 'tight binding between resources and objects'?



                > and it has very poor support for
                > HATEOAS.

                I do not think that frameworks actually can really do much in that regard. Payloads need to be more or less domain specific (meaning use of specific media types rather that generic ones such as application/json or application/xml) when you want to build a RESTful system. Hence frameworks can't really do much at the general level when it comes to payload generation. Except maybe to provide an API to plug in media type specific components.

                In fact, I think that JAX-RS really is headed in the right direction.

                > Another key impediment to REST adoption is XML's lack of
                > native support for hypermedia. People (inappropriately) presume that
                > REST requires use of XML, and it's tough to return hyperlinks
                > indicating the continuing application flow when using XML.

                Huh? I'd say it is actually pretty easy to define hypermedia controls in XML-based media types (see HTML, AtomPub, RSS).

                >
                > The most frequent question I get regarding REST is how to implement
                > end to end security. I reply by explaining that you secure RESTful
                > interactions the same way you secure Web applications, but secure web
                > apps typically involve a user entering a password. It gets more
                > complicated when no human is involved.

                Do you mean because you end up using some sort of system-user credentials?

                >
                > REST is likely to enjoy broader adoption when the mainstream vendors
                > star providing RESTful frameworks (i.e., more than JAX-RS)

                Can you specify what 'more' would involve?


                > and better
                > end to end security mediation infrastructure for RESTful interactions.

                Any sketch how that might look like?

                Jan


                >
                > Anne
                >
                > On Friday, July 30, 2010, mglendin <mikeg@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> --- In service-orientated-architecture@yahoogroups.com, Nick Gall <nick.gall@...> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> Steve,
                >>>
                >>> If I listed a handful of references, then you'd ask "where are the stats to
                >>> show they are not outliers?" I know all too well after all these years that
                >>> NOTHING will convince you of anything. And I'm sure you feel the same way.
                >>> :-)
                >>>
                >>> The survey was done, I assume, by informationweek. But Gartner has done
                >>> similar surveys that show REST growing steadily in our enterprise client
                >>> base over the years.
                >>>
                >>> -- Nick
                >>>
                >>
                >> Nick/Steve,
                >>
                >> yes, the InformationWeek article is rather unscientific in its presentation of the statistics, and is also around 18 months old.
                >>
                >> But the first thing that struck me was that still that about 1/3 of the respondents were contructing their SOAs using something *other* than SOAP or REST, presumably MQSeries or similar, and this number was expected to remain pretty constant over the next 18 months. So the only reported movement was between SOAP and REST. This I find rather surprising, but also quite interesting! Shouldn't we be talking more about this other 1/3?
                >>
                >> The second point I would like to make is that it seems more likely that when people said they were using (or planning to use) REST, they really meant just RPC and POX over HTTP, i.e. what the Richardson Maturity Model calls "REST Level 0". This is emphatically *not* REST, as Roy Fielding and many others would forcibly tell you!
                >>
                >> In my experience, there is very little real understanding of REST within the industry at large. For example, I ran a conference workshop on REST a couple of months ago and although most of the 30+ attendees had *heard* of REST, none of them could actually say what it was!
                >>
                >> So I would like to ask you Nick how much evidence you have of the real adoption of REST for system-to-system communication, that is examples of fully hypermedia driven APIs conforming to all of the REST constraints?
                >>
                >> I suspect that today one could count the number of such systems worldwide on the fingers of one hand. Perhaps Steve has a point that the real *adoption* of "Web Services" has been much more rapid and pervasive than that of [true] REST, because it is much easier to achieve.
                >>
                >> Disregarding the pros and cons of the competing technical approaches for a moment, I think this points to a real need for REST to communicate its message more clearly so that it can be understood by the wider industry and to generate some form of tool support from the vendors.
                >>
                >> I think that the present "macho" attitude of many in the REST community who argue that "REST is so simple that you don't need tools" is rather unhelpful to the vast majority of practitioners who just want to get their job done with the minimum of fuss!
                >>
                >> And besides, I don't see how REST can be *that* simple when the real complexities of the design of hypermedia driven APIs do not seem to be fully understood and certainly not clearly explained, even by the experts!
                >>
                >> Regards,
                >>
                >> -Mike Glendinning.
                >>
                >>
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                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                -----------------------------------
                Jan Algermissen, Consultant
                NORD Software Consulting

                Mail: algermissen@...
                Blog: http://www.nordsc.com/blog/
                Work: http://www.nordsc.com/
                -----------------------------------
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