Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: newbie drills/sparring survey

Expand Messages
  • Rick Wallace
    From the responses so far, the answers are on the high side for drill time. At least 50% for practices four through six for a brand-new fencer. Some of you
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      From the responses so far, the answers are on the high side for drill
      time. At least 50% for practices four through six for a brand-new
      fencer.

      Some of you won't commit to a hard number, or limit yourself to one
      of the choices given, and that's understandable. Fencers are more
      feline than canine after all... *g*

      Let's see if the responses from those people who have yet to read the
      question continue the pattern.

      Yves
    • Ric and Joanne Loll
      Not feeling qualified to offer an opinion on how newbie rapier practice should be structured, I d still like to offer an observation and ask a question or two.
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Not feeling qualified to offer an opinion on how newbie rapier practice
        should be structured, I'd still like to offer an observation and ask a
        question or two.

        I've been fighting heavy for over 10 years. I've been to fighter's practice
        in eight Kingdoms and over 20 groups on a fairly regular basis in the last
        decade. I occurs to me that drill work is virtually never part of armored
        fighter's practice. I have seen knights take a fighter aside to show them a
        move or correct a problem, but have almost never noted authorized fighters
        declaring 'tonight is wrap shot night - that's what we're working on' and
        then work on practice to make it so. This is true both for newbies and for
        experienced fighters, in my experience. Yes, we'll tell a new heavy fighter
        'here's how to throw a forearm snap, a wrap, etc.' - but the difference I've
        almost never observed the fighter to then proceed, either against a pell or
        opponent, to spend any length of time in practicing that particular shot.
        I've put myself through much more conscious training to throw rapier shots
        than most of my heavy training (given, I don't like tourneys - I'm a war
        addict).

        It seems, as a community, that skill work is much more prevalent throughout
        the community for rapier fighters. By this I mean there appears to be a
        public effort to improve skills and overall prowess of the community, rather
        than a personal effort or something that happens privately inside the
        Knight-Squire relationship. This doesn't discount the efforts made by the
        highly skilled who raise above the casual participant - it just means the
        "median value" of a rapier fighter is something the community wants to see
        remain high or improve upon. This in contrast to what I see as the "Bright
        stars on a dull field" attitudes of the majority of the heavy fighting
        community. Once again, this is based on my experiences and YMMV, but the
        rapier community seems much more helpful and less "old boy network" - which
        leads to better training for everyone rather than just the promising few who
        might make Knight some day. Does anyone else agree or disagree?

        Having dealt with "newbie" training, how do you perceive the percentage of
        drill required for the continuing authorizations? I feel soft and rigid
        parry as being drill dependent for a shorter period of time, more quickly
        accelerating into sparring. I see the opposite on dagger and case. I'd be
        very interested in further discussions on moving past the initial
        authorization.

        Magnus McKinley

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Rick Wallace" <rwalla@...>
        To: <serapier@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:51 AM
        Subject: [serapier] Re: newbie drills/sparring survey


        > From the responses so far, the answers are on the high side for drill
        > time. At least 50% for practices four through six for a brand-new
        > fencer.
        >
        > Some of you won't commit to a hard number, or limit yourself to one
        > of the choices given, and that's understandable. Fencers are more
        > feline than canine after all... *g*
        >
        > Let's see if the responses from those people who have yet to read the
        > question continue the pattern.
        >
        > Yves
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Laury Torrence
        Hmmm.... also not being an instructor type ... but having played the rapier game for about 13 years now, I think I can safely throw in my 2 cents worth. As a
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Hmmm.... also not being an "instructor type"... but having played the rapier
          game for about 13 years now, I think I can safely throw in my 2 cents worth.
          As a brand new fighter, I was fortunate enough to have an instructor who,
          although not a cadet or student of any Don at the time, was very good at
          showing me the basics without boring me to tears.
          Then I moved to the "hub of fencing" in the SCA, Bryn Gwlad (aka Austin Tx),
          and had the good fortune to have many instructors who also gave me a better
          understanding of the basics, again without driving me crazy with too much
          history(forgive me historians out there), or boring me to death with the
          same repetitive drills week in week out.
          I still drive classical fencers nuts because I do not use standard
          footwork... although I can and occasionally do... but I generally seem to
          end up on the right foot for me to get the job done.

          I guess my personal preference is a 50/50 split, teach them something new,
          do some drill work to get it in there, then do some sparring to let them see
          how it works. I worked for me!

          Baroness Caterina (the Ansteorran transplant)

          _________________________________________________________________
          The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
          http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
        • Penny Brierley-Bowers
          In several notes people have referred to drills as boring and referred to drills as being basic . Starting basic drills are well, yes basic, but I am
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 1, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            In several notes people have referred to drills as boring and referred to
            drills as being "basic". Starting basic drills are well, yes basic, but I
            am wondering if perhaps what I think of as drills is not what everyone else
            thinks of as drills.

            For example one of my favorites is the "box drill". One person is in a
            box, say 4 X 4. Another attacks. The person in the box focuses on defense
            and repostes while the person on the outside focuses on use of angles, space
            and variety of attacks. If no touch is made after a few minutes then the
            box shrinks until the defender has only one foot planted. It is an advanced
            drill, not something used in the first few lessons, but great after basics
            are reliable enough to focus on other aspects.

            Perhaps people can define what they mean as drills versus sparring?

            M. Celeste

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Laury Torrence [mailto:latorrence@...]
            Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 1:50 PM
            To: serapier@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [serapier] newbie drills/sparring survey



            Hmmm.... also not being an "instructor type"... but having played the rapier
            game for about 13 years now, I think I can safely throw in my 2 cents worth.
            As a brand new fighter, I was fortunate enough to have an instructor who,
            although not a cadet or student of any Don at the time, was very good at
            showing me the basics without boring me to tears.
            Then I moved to the "hub of fencing" in the SCA, Bryn Gwlad (aka Austin Tx),
            and had the good fortune to have many instructors who also gave me a better
            understanding of the basics, again without driving me crazy with too much
            history(forgive me historians out there), or boring me to death with the
            same repetitive drills week in week out.
            I still drive classical fencers nuts because I do not use standard
            footwork... although I can and occasionally do... but I generally seem to
            end up on the right foot for me to get the job done.

            I guess my personal preference is a 50/50 split, teach them something new,
            do some drill work to get it in there, then do some sparring to let them see
            how it works. I worked for me!

            Baroness Caterina (the Ansteorran transplant)

            _________________________________________________________________
            The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
            http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail





            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Rick Wallace
            Well since I was the one who tossed out the survey question . . . I think a drill is a set sequence or loop of actions, generally practiced in repetition.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 1, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Well since I was the one who tossed out the survey question . . .

              I think a drill is a set sequence or loop of actions, generally
              practiced in repetition. Teacher says "I want to see X" - where X is
              some desired result achieved by the student. The teacher could be
              oneself (solo practice) or someone else - preferably someone who can
              correct mistakes and unfavorable habits. A drill has one leader and
              zero or more students.

              I think sparring is two fencers practicing by fencing each other on
              an equal basis. Neither serves as leader or student.

              With three or more fencers involved I think it's melee practice
              rather than sparring.

              Celeste, I like the box drill concept. Thanks for sharing it.

              Yves
            • Carol Knight
              MEOW PHYT PURRRRRRRRRRRR Roz Student of Fluent Siamese...cat, that is ... From: Rick Wallace [mailto:rwalla@attbi.com] Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 09:52 AM
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                MEOW
                PHYT
                PURRRRRRRRRRRR

                Roz
                "Student of Fluent Siamese...cat, that is"

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Rick Wallace [mailto:rwalla@...]
                Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 09:52 AM
                To: serapier@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [serapier] Re: newbie drills/sparring survey

                From the responses so far, the answers are on the high side for drill
                time. At least 50% for practices four through six for a brand-new
                fencer.

                Some of you won't commit to a hard number, or limit yourself to one
                of the choices given, and that's understandable. Fencers are more
                feline than canine after all... *g*

                Let's see if the responses from those people who have yet to read the
                question continue the pattern.

                Yves








                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Marsh, Michael
                Sparing when I can get there ... From: Carol Knight [mailto:carol.knight@chsys.org] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:35 AM To: serapier@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sparing when I can get there

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Carol Knight [mailto:carol.knight@...]
                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:35 AM
                  To: 'serapier@yahoogroups.com'
                  Subject: RE: [serapier] Re: newbie drills/sparring survey


                  MEOW
                  PHYT
                  PURRRRRRRRRRRR

                  Roz
                  "Student of Fluent Siamese...cat, that is"

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rick Wallace [mailto:rwalla@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 09:52 AM
                  To: serapier@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [serapier] Re: newbie drills/sparring survey

                  From the responses so far, the answers are on the high side for drill
                  time. At least 50% for practices four through six for a brand-new
                  fencer.

                  Some of you won't commit to a hard number, or limit yourself to one
                  of the choices given, and that's understandable. Fencers are more
                  feline than canine after all... *g*

                  Let's see if the responses from those people who have yet to read the
                  question continue the pattern.

                  Yves








                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                  ________________________________________________
                  The information contained in this message from
                  Sutherland Asbill & Brennan LLP and any attachments
                  is confidential and intended only for the named
                  recipient(s). If you have received this message
                  in error, you are prohibited from copying,
                  distributing or using the information. Please
                  contact the sender immediately by return email
                  and delete the original message.
                • Carol Knight
                  I have noticed that Heavies tend to teach more with; Come Here and let me hit you ... That was not a good shot, don t ever take any of those. ... RATTLE,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I have noticed that Heavies tend to teach more with;
                    "Come Here and let me hit you"
                    ::WHAM:: BOING:: Rattle, rattle....
                    "That was not a good shot, don't ever take any of those."
                    ::WHAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMM:: BOOOOIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGG:: RATTLE,
                    RATTLE, RATTLE
                    "That is what a good shot feels like-those you take. Do you need help
                    getting up?"

                    AT Rapier Practice, for the New Person;
                    "Here is a good foot work drill-this helps keep your narrowest view to your
                    opponent as you attack."
                    "Remember the Karate Kid? We are going to do something similar. This drill
                    will build up your muscle memory so you will not block a blow into you, but
                    away from you."
                    "Hold up your hand."
                    ::poke::
                    "This is how hard you are supposed to hit your opponent, and this is the
                    kind of blows you are expected to call. If a blow is too hard, let your
                    opponent know, so they will be able to calibrate."

                    The one big difference I have noticed is that there is real teaching going
                    on with the Rapier Practices. Rapier Marshals aren't there just for Armor
                    Inspection. These folks take a very active teaching role.
                    I think Rapier requires more finesse then brute strength. This makes drills
                    and classes a necessity. Threading through someone else's defenses, and
                    poking them, instead of trying to hit them with the SCA equivalent of a
                    baseball bat, requires certain skills that have to be taught to the point of
                    being automatically a 'no-brainer.' <G>

                    Hmm, am I answering your question, or just agreeing with you? <G>

                    As to continued drilling after the initial authorization-oh, yes, it is
                    needed. With each new 'step', drills do help. One drill that poor Stefan is
                    surely tired of by now, was doing that blasted drill I call "Wipe on, wipe
                    off". First I would do that with my hands (no weapons) and when I was trying
                    to learn dagger, I would do it with my dagger only.
                    My next to learn will be hard parry/buckler. I will warn Stefan now-look for
                    the same thing, with Baby Shield! <G>


                    Roz



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ric and Joanne Loll [mailto:rnjloll@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:01 AM
                    To: serapier@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [serapier] Re: newbie drills/sparring survey

                    It seems, as a community, that skill work is much more prevalent throughout
                    the community for rapier fighters. By this I mean there appears to be a
                    public effort to improve skills and overall prowess of the community, rather
                    than a personal effort or something that happens privately inside the
                    Knight-Squire relationship. This doesn't discount the efforts made by the
                    highly skilled who raise above the casual participant - it just means the
                    "median value" of a rapier fighter is something the community wants to see
                    remain high or improve upon. This in contrast to what I see as the "Bright
                    stars on a dull field" attitudes of the majority of the heavy fighting
                    community. Once again, this is based on my experiences and YMMV, but the
                    rapier community seems much more helpful and less "old boy network" - which
                    leads to better training for everyone rather than just the promising few who
                    might make Knight some day. Does anyone else agree or disagree?

                    Having dealt with "newbie" training, how do you perceive the percentage of
                    drill required for the continuing authorizations? I feel soft and rigid
                    parry as being drill dependent for a shorter period of time, more quickly
                    accelerating into sparring. I see the opposite on dagger and case. I'd be
                    very interested in further discussions on moving past the initial
                    authorization.

                    Magnus McKinley

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Rick Wallace" <rwalla@...>
                    To: <serapier@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:51 AM
                    Subject: [serapier] Re: newbie drills/sparring survey


                    > From the responses so far, the answers are on the high side for drill
                    > time. At least 50% for practices four through six for a brand-new
                    > fencer.
                    >
                    > Some of you won't commit to a hard number, or limit yourself to one
                    > of the choices given, and that's understandable. Fencers are more
                    > feline than canine after all... *g*
                    >
                    > Let's see if the responses from those people who have yet to read the
                    > question continue the pattern.
                    >
                    > Yves
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Rick Wallace
                    Bonjour Magnus, Since the student is an authorized fencer they (ideally) know how to use a rapier to attack and defend safely and use the open hand both with
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bonjour Magnus,

                      Since the student is an authorized fencer they (ideally) know how to
                      use a rapier to attack and defend safely and use the open hand both
                      with some proficiency. That (along with footwork some might say) is
                      the physical foundation of our game and what a fencer must rely on
                      should they lose the use of their hand or arm in combat - unless all
                      they have left is a dagger. Then agility becomes a lot more important!

                      For extra authorizations, the student can request drills or half-
                      speed (or slower) sparring based on their previous experience,
                      whatever they prefer.

                      Since using a shield is less complex than using the open hand, I
                      reckon a large majority of fencers learn it quickly.

                      Practice with a baton (cane, etc.) could help make sure the student
                      can use it safely, avoiding hitting either themselves or their foe.

                      Technically, using a shield or baton come under the same
                      authorization form (rigid), but I treat them separately due to their
                      usage and safety considerations. (I've been whacked with a baton more
                      often than a shield, m'self.)

                      Drills with a dagger (and with "case") could help make sure the
                      student can attack safely with the second hand and avoiding getting
                      the blades tangled. I think using two rapiers is the most complex
                      form and the most difficult to learn for most fencers.

                      Practice with a cape, well, safety isn't as much of an issue outside
                      of the "here's what you can't do" rules, but it's good to be able to
                      avoid getting oneself tangled.

                      So... drill/sparring percentage, to me, doesn't apply for
                      extra/continuing authorizations.

                      Comments anyone?

                      Yves
                    • Rick Wallace
                      Hi Leon, The student, B, wants to learn more and has no specific goals. The student s progression is typical for what you have seen. The teacher is yourself.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Leon,

                        The student, B, wants to learn more and has no specific goals. The
                        student's progression is typical for what you have seen. The teacher
                        is yourself.

                        Recalling the original question: for practices four through six for a
                        brand-new fencer, what percentage of time overall would you spend
                        with B on drills and how much on sparring?

                        Yves
                      • Rick Wallace
                        Bonjour Roscelin, You said, Drills alone, just don t work! You don t learn from your mistakes doing drills, as well as you can from getting in there and
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 2, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Bonjour Roscelin,

                          You said, "Drills alone, just don't work! You don't learn from your
                          mistakes doing drills, as well as you can from getting in there and
                          sparring."

                          One can learn from one's mistakes doing drills if the teacher shows
                          one how. I will agree that 100% drills during a practice won't work
                          for a large majority of fencers for the same reason you said:
                          boredom. I included it for the sake of completeness. And, otherwise,
                          Craig Robert would have had to settle for something less than 100%.
                          *smile*

                          By the by, regarding sparring, I did mean full-speed (or at least 3/4
                          speed) activity. Let's call this fast sparring.

                          Personally, I don't learn much from fast sparring, even now after
                          fencing for several years. Other people do. *shrug*

                          I really like slow sparring (1/2 to 1/4 speed) along with drills.
                          Your brain doesn't get left behind as quickly - you see more
                          openings, you have more time to react and think of more options, and
                          you don't get tired nearly as quickly.

                          Comments, anyone?

                          Yves
                          ... slow-sparring proponent
                        • Craig Robert Pierpont
                          Bonjour Yves, We have also found directed sparring helpful. This is sparring with an informed observer who will periodically pass his/her observations along
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bonjour Yves,
                            We have also found "directed sparring" helpful. This is sparring with an informed observer who will periodically pass his/her observations along to one or both of the participating fighters. It is particularly useful if there is an established focus for the sparing bout. For example, maybe a fighter always parries too late. Knowing that the fighter will be working on this, the observer can watch for it and perhaps help the fighter see what is happening, figure out why and develop a cure. This is particularly helpful for fighters who have been sparing long enough to have developed a fighting style (which can then be improved).
                            Craig Robert

                            Rick Wallace <rwalla@...> wrote:
                            Bonjour Roscelin,

                            You said, "Drills alone, just don't work! You don't learn from your
                            mistakes doing drills, as well as you can from getting in there and
                            sparring."

                            One can learn from one's mistakes doing drills if the teacher shows
                            one how. I will agree that 100% drills during a practice won't work
                            for a large majority of fencers for the same reason you said:
                            boredom. I included it for the sake of completeness. And, otherwise,
                            Craig Robert would have had to settle for something less than 100%.
                            *smile*

                            By the by, regarding sparring, I did mean full-speed (or at least 3/4
                            speed) activity. Let's call this fast sparring.

                            Personally, I don't learn much from fast sparring, even now after
                            fencing for several years. Other people do. *shrug*

                            I really like slow sparring (1/2 to 1/4 speed) along with drills.
                            Your brain doesn't get left behind as quickly - you see more
                            openings, you have more time to react and think of more options, and
                            you don't get tired nearly as quickly.

                            Comments, anyone?

                            Yves
                            ... slow-sparring proponent




                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                            ---------------------------------
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mangler2010@aol.com
                            Having taken fencing lesson for many years, I have learned that drills teach me muscle memory. It becomes second nature to do a certain parry and repost when
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 3, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Having taken fencing lesson for many years, I have learned that drills teach
                              me muscle memory. It becomes second nature to do a certain parry and repost
                              when an attack is made. The drills I have learned always start with some form
                              of an attack but it is slow and controlled and I know what to parry/repost
                              with. I think that slow sparring does allow one to better see the setup for a
                              certain attack or a parry and repost. When at full speed, hopefully all the
                              training kicks in and it all works. So I feel that a practice should have a
                              healthy mix of all three.
                              What are some of the drills you guys like to teach/practice?

                              In service,
                              Robert de Forge


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Shoiel ben Yisrael of Poznan'
                              ... Never been to Axemoor? . . . It s been a while since I attended an Axemorian Practice but in the past we trained our new fighters well. We had several
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >
                                >I've been fighting heavy for over 10 years. I've been to fighter's
                                >practice
                                >in eight Kingdoms and over 20 groups on a fairly regular basis in the last
                                >decade. I occurs to me that drill work is virtually never part of armored
                                >fighter's practice.

                                Never been to Axemoor? . . .

                                It's been a while since I attended an Axemorian Practice but in the past we
                                trained our new fighters well. We had several drills. In addition to
                                footwork and distance drills, we worked shield practice and sword practice
                                seperately. We also had a drill where we placed a round shield on the
                                ground and had two fighters stand with their lead foot on the edge with the
                                objective to throw as many blows at each other in a set amount of time.
                                This worked on combiinations AND since you did not want to get hit, worked
                                the shield. Also, since you could not run away it prepared you for getting
                                hit. Then there is the Pell . . .

                                > > Let's see if the responses from those people who have yet to read the
                                > > question continue the pattern.
                                > >
                                > > Yves
                                > >


                                Now My two Zloty on the Drill vs. Spar:

                                I, personally, HATE doing drills. That is just me. Drills ARE the best
                                thing to learn how to spar. If you do not have the techniques ingrained
                                into your muscle memory you are at a major disadvantage. If you have to
                                think of what to do under the stress of an attack or miss an opening becase
                                you could not make yourself move in quick enough, you will lose the battle.

                                So, my answer to the question:

                                A fencer straight out of the box: Drill 100% (Slow sparing to me is a
                                drill and that comes after the foot and sword work have proven competent)

                                After the new wears off the amount of D vs S will depend on the new fighter.

                                Shalom,
                                Shoiel

                                _________________________________________________________________
                                Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
                                http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                              • Wendy Colbert
                                Hi Guys, I have been out of touch for about 2 weeks and got back from Chicago early Sunday morning. I took yesterday to get caught up. Those who have watched
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Guys,
                                  I have been out of touch for about 2 weeks and got back from Chicago
                                  early Sunday morning. I took yesterday to get caught up.

                                  Those who have watched me teach already know my answer. A new student
                                  should do drills until they have enough muscle memory trained so they
                                  can think about what they are doing rather than reacting blindly. :-)

                                  There are lots of different drills that can be done to keep life
                                  interesting. Drills can work on footwork, distance, guard positions,
                                  parries, point control. For a new student keep drills simple until
                                  mastered then move on to the more complex.

                                  Focus on doing the drill perfectly.

                                  I still drill, I like to work on perfecting moves.

                                  Irene
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.