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[self-interest] Re: Self hardware

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  • Steve Dekorte
    ... Is an iMac(w/64M) good enough? Steve
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 5, 1998
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      David Ungar <David.Ungar@...> wrote:
      > Yes, HotSpot was an intellectual descendant of the Self VM work, and
      > some of its key personnel were former Selfies.
      >
      > Jason, do you have access to a fairly recent Macintosh?
      >
      > - Dave

      Is an iMac(w/64M) good enough?

      Steve
    • riftweaver@hotmail.com
      Yes, I think its cool too; I ve not been able to do more than read about Self, but having raided the old Sun site a few months ago, it seems like a very clean
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 2, 1999
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        Yes, I think its cool too; I've not been able to do more than read
        about Self, but having raided the old Sun site a few months ago, it
        seems like a very clean and fun language. Also persused the old Merlin
        stuff, and I am anxious to see what kind of system(s) you may produce.

        Dave -- didn't you end up working on Sun's "HotSpot" Java compiler?

        Jason Karney (jason@...)

        > Cool!
        >
        > - Dave
        >
        > >Hi, friends!
        > >
        > >I've been without internet access for the past couple of weeks and
        > >am only now catching up with my email, including the discussions
        > >on this list.
        > >
        > >I thought you might be interested to know that I am typing this
        > >from the offices of "Merlin Computer Technology", the first
        > >company dedicated to producing hardware implementations of Self.
        > >We hope to be selling our first product (Merlin 6) by the
        > >Christmas season - I can post some details about it if there is
        > >interest.
        > >
        > >That doesn't mean that I have forgotten about software
        implemetantions
        > >for PCs and such! They'll be coming along.
        > >
        > >This new company will soon have its own web site, and there will
        > >also be a special web server written in Self called "Self Projects".
        > >The pages for this site will be editable and there will be space
        > >for all Self related projects.
        > >
        > >-- Jecel
        > >
        > >
      • David Ungar
        Yes, HotSpot was an intellectual descendant of the Self VM work, and some of its key personnel were former Selfies. Jason, do you have access to a fairly
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 5, 1999
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          Yes, HotSpot was an intellectual descendant of the Self VM work, and
          some of its
          key personnel were former Selfies.

          Jason, do you have access to a fairly recent Macintosh?

          - Dave


          At 10:08 AM -0700 8/2/99, riftweaver@... wrote:
          >Yes, I think its cool too; I've not been able to do more than read
          >about Self, but having raided the old Sun site a few months ago, it
          >seems like a very clean and fun language. Also persused the old Merlin
          >stuff, and I am anxious to see what kind of system(s) you may produce.
          >
          >Dave -- didn't you end up working on Sun's "HotSpot" Java compiler?
          >
          >Jason Karney (jason@...)
          >
          >> Cool!
          >>
          >> - Dave
          >>
          >> >Hi, friends!
          >> >
          >> >I've been without internet access for the past couple of weeks and
          >> >am only now catching up with my email, including the discussions
          >> >on this list.
          >> >
          >> >I thought you might be interested to know that I am typing this
          >> >from the offices of "Merlin Computer Technology", the first
          >> >company dedicated to producing hardware implementations of Self.
          >> >We hope to be selling our first product (Merlin 6) by the
          >> >Christmas season - I can post some details about it if there is
          >> >interest.
          >> >
          >> >That doesn't mean that I have forgotten about software
          >implemetantions
          >> >for PCs and such! They'll be coming along.
          >> >
          >> >This new company will soon have its own web site, and there will
          >> >also be a special web server written in Self called "Self Projects".
          >> >The pages for this site will be editable and there will be space
          >> >for all Self related projects.
          >> >
          >> >-- Jecel
          >> >
          >> >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/self-interest
          >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications



          David Ungar
          Sun Microsystems Laboratories
          (650) 336-2618
        • Gilad Bracha
          ... Please do post any details you can (without, of course, disclosing anything proprietary). Cheers, Gilad *********************************************
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 5, 1999
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            At 03:46 PM 7/23/99 , Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:
            >I thought you might be interested to know that I am typing this
            >from the offices of "Merlin Computer Technology", the first
            >company dedicated to producing hardware implementations of Self.
            >We hope to be selling our first product (Merlin 6) by the
            >Christmas season - I can post some details about it if there is
            >interest.
            >

            Please do post any details you can (without, of course, disclosing anything
            proprietary).


            Cheers, Gilad

            *********************************************
            Gilad Bracha
            Computational Theologist
            Sun Java Software
            http://java.sun.com/people/gbracha/
          • Jecel Assumpcao Jr
            ... If the answer is yes, then I know where I can kidnap a machine like that :-) -- Jecel
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 6, 1999
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              Steve Dekorte wrote:
              >
              > David Ungar <David.Ungar@...> wrote:
              > > Yes, HotSpot was an intellectual descendant of the Self VM work, and
              > > some of its key personnel were former Selfies.
              > >
              > > Jason, do you have access to a fairly recent Macintosh?
              > >
              > > - Dave
              >
              > Is an iMac(w/64M) good enough?

              If the answer is yes, then I know where I can kidnap a machine
              like that :-)

              -- Jecel
            • Jochen Schneider
              ... Sorry for being nosy: Is there a Self for it? Or HotSpot? Jochen Gráe, Jochen ... Jochen Schneider (josch@isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de)
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 6, 1999
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                David Ungar <David.Ungar@...> wrote:

                > Jason, do you have access to a fairly recent Macintosh?

                Sorry for being nosy: Is there a Self for it? Or HotSpot?

                Jochen

                Gr��e,
                Jochen
                ---
                Jochen Schneider (josch@...-magdeburg.de)
                Otto-von-Guericke-Universit�t
                Institut f�r Simulation und Graphik
                Postfach 4120
                39016 Magdeburg
              • Jason Karney
                I can borrow a PowerBook 3400 if that s recent enough... although if I m really nice, I can beg a G3 book... So is there a good incentive for me to borrow one
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 6, 1999
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                  I can borrow a PowerBook 3400 if that's recent enough... although if I'm really
                  nice, I can beg a G3 book...

                  So is there a good incentive for me to borrow one :-)

                  Jason

                  David Ungar wrote:

                  > Yes, HotSpot was an intellectual descendant of the Self VM work, and
                  > some of its
                  > key personnel were former Selfies.
                  >
                  > Jason, do you have access to a fairly recent Macintosh?
                  >
                  > - Dave
                  >
                  > At 10:08 AM -0700 8/2/99, riftweaver@... wrote:
                  > >Yes, I think its cool too; I've not been able to do more than read
                  > >about Self, but having raided the old Sun site a few months ago, it
                  > >seems like a very clean and fun language. Also persused the old Merlin
                  > >stuff, and I am anxious to see what kind of system(s) you may produce.
                  > >
                  > >Dave -- didn't you end up working on Sun's "HotSpot" Java compiler?
                  > >
                  > >Jason Karney (jason@...)
                  > >
                  > >> Cool!
                  > >>
                  > >> - Dave
                  > >>
                  > >> >Hi, friends!
                  > >> >
                  > >> >I've been without internet access for the past couple of weeks and
                  > >> >am only now catching up with my email, including the discussions
                  > >> >on this list.
                  > >> >
                  > >> >I thought you might be interested to know that I am typing this
                  > >> >from the offices of "Merlin Computer Technology", the first
                  > >> >company dedicated to producing hardware implementations of Self.
                  > >> >We hope to be selling our first product (Merlin 6) by the
                  > >> >Christmas season - I can post some details about it if there is
                  > >> >interest.
                  > >> >
                  > >> >That doesn't mean that I have forgotten about software
                  > >implemetantions
                  > >> >for PCs and such! They'll be coming along.
                  > >> >
                  > >> >This new company will soon have its own web site, and there will
                  > >> >also be a special web server written in Self called "Self Projects".
                  > >> >The pages for this site will be editable and there will be space
                  > >> >for all Self related projects.
                  > >> >
                  > >> >-- Jecel
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/self-interest
                  > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > David Ungar
                  > Sun Microsystems Laboratories
                  > (650) 336-2618
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
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                  >
                  > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/self-interest
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                • Jecel Assumpcao Jr
                  ... Don t worry about that - all information about it will be available on the web under two licenses (see the end of the page on
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 6, 1999
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                    Gilad Bracha wrote:
                    >
                    > At 03:46 PM 7/23/99 , Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:
                    > >[merlin 6]
                    >
                    > Please do post any details you can (without, of course, disclosing anything
                    > proprietary).

                    Don't worry about that - all information about it will be
                    available on the web under two licenses (see the end of the
                    page on http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/merlin4.7 for an idea of
                    what they will be like).

                    Merlin 6 will be a small computer/keyboard combination (like
                    the Commodore 64) and will include a pointing device like the
                    "hula pointer" used in some notebooks.

                    Along the back will be the digital ports:

                    - USB
                    - Firewire (three connectors)
                    - Fast Ethernet
                    - VGA out (not really digital, but...)

                    and on the side we have the analog ports:

                    - video out (NTSC and PAL)
                    - video in (NTSC and PAL)
                    - sound out (mono)
                    - sound in (mono)
                    - telephone (V.34 modem initially)

                    There is also a power cord and space for an optional battery.
                    It is powered by a Xilinx Virtex XCV 300-6 field programmable
                    gate array and also a Xilinx Spartan FPGA. It includes 32MB of
                    100 Mhz SDRAM, 640 KB of 10 ns SRAM (for the caches) and a
                    2 MB Flash memory. The rest of the circuit is composed of small
                    interface chips. A DIMM socket allows expansion of the SDRAM.

                    The cache memory is linked to the FPGA over an 80 bit wide bus
                    (including both tag and data information). It is divided into
                    four regions: the data cache, the microcode cache, the PICs
                    and the translator. The internal architecture of the CPU is
                    a four issue MOVE (or TTA. See http://cardit.et.tudelft.nl/MOVE/)
                    with four moves on each 64 bit instruction word. This is the
                    "microcode" for the machine and is only stored in the microcode
                    cache and the translator area. The externally visible machine
                    code is simply Self bytecodes (but could be Java or Smalltalk
                    bytecodes) and that is what is stored in main memory.

                    The microcode cache and the "loop coprocessors" (for multimedia.
                    I hadn't mentioned them yet...) are rather complicated, so I'll
                    post a link here as soon as I finish the web pages explaining
                    them. I hope to cycle the CPU at 100 MHz even though I will be
                    using the slowest speed grade (the other cost too much).

                    The Flash memory stores the bits for programming both FPGAs and
                    also the system software. It includes two banks of programming,
                    selectable with a strap. So you can use the machine to call up
                    its own design, change it and save it to bank B in the Flash.
                    Then you open up the machine (I feel that if you are not up to
                    messing inside the machine, you shouldn't be redesigning it!)
                    and change the strap to it tries to load from bank B after a
                    reset. If that doesn't work, you move the strap back to A and
                    boot normally into Self/R to change the design again to try to
                    fix the problem. If you end up ruining both banks and can't
                    boot the machine anymore, then set the strap to a third position
                    and connect a cable to either another Merlin 6 or a PC with the
                    right software and you can wipe the Flash clean and load a
                    working design into it.

                    I think this is about as "open" as hardware will ever get and
                    will be a great learning experience for the new generations
                    that didn't get to build stuff from TTLs. What do you think?

                    -- Jecel
                    P.S.: I got the site http://200.210.69.43 running over a 33kbps
                    link, but the pages there are just placeholders until I can
                    write something better.
                  • Steve Dekorte
                    ... I d love to play with it when the UI is running. I d even find it usefull for writing server applications if it was running under Mac OS X. I d also be
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 9, 1999
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                      David Ungar <David.Ungar@...> wrote:
                      > This should depend on if anyone would use or improve it, and this is hard to
                      > get a sense of--so let me know if you want.
                      >
                      > - Dave
                      >
                      > PS: Right now, only the stupid compiler is there. The UI (ui2) is barely usable
                      > on my 266Mhz G3 and the transporter is a bit slow.

                      I'd love to play with it when the UI is running.
                      I'd even find it usefull for writing server applications if it
                      was running under Mac OS X. I'd also be willing to help with a port
                      though my expertise is limited to the OS X Foundation and UI APIs.

                      Steve
                    • David Ungar
                      I have been working on a Self port to the Mac for a while now, and it is starting to limp along. It is hard for me to know at what point I should divert time
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 9, 1999
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                        I have been working on a Self port to the Mac for a while now, and it
                        is starting
                        to limp along.

                        It is hard for me to know at what point I should divert time away
                        from the engineering
                        to do the release work (legal, documentation, etc.)

                        This should depend on if anyone would use or improve it, and this is hard to
                        get a sense of--so let me know if you want.

                        - Dave

                        PS: Right now, only the stupid compiler is there. The UI (ui2) is barely usable
                        on my 266Mhz G3 and the transporter is a bit slow.



                        At 2:31 PM +0100 8/6/99, Jochen Schneider wrote:
                        >David Ungar <David.Ungar@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> Jason, do you have access to a fairly recent Macintosh?
                        >
                        >Sorry for being nosy: Is there a Self for it? Or HotSpot?
                        >
                        > Jochen
                        >
                        >Gráe,
                        > Jochen
                        >---
                        >Jochen Schneider (josch@...-magdeburg.de)
                        >Otto-von-Guericke-Universit„t
                        >Institut fr Simulation und Graphik
                        >Postfach 4120
                        >39016 Magdeburg
                        >
                        >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/self-interest
                        >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications



                        David Ungar
                        Sun Microsystems Laboratories
                        (650) 336-2618
                      • David N. Smith (IBM)
                        ... Dave: I d certainly use it, and it might be a good excuse to upgrade my PPC 9500/200. I also suspect that it something that basically worked was out, then
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 10, 1999
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                          At 14:29 -0700 8/9/99, David Ungar wrote:
                          >I have been working on a Self port to the Mac for a while now, and
                          >it is starting
                          >to limp along.
                          >
                          >It is hard for me to know at what point I should divert time away
                          >from the engineering
                          >to do the release work (legal, documentation, etc.)
                          >
                          >This should depend on if anyone would use or improve it, and this is hard to
                          >get a sense of--so let me know if you want.

                          Dave:

                          I'd certainly use it, and it might be a good excuse to upgrade my PPC 9500/200.

                          I also suspect that it something that basically worked was out, then
                          you'd get lots of help making it better.

                          Dave
                          _______________________________
                          David N. Smith
                          IBM T J Watson Research Center
                          Hawthorne, NY
                          _______________________________
                          Any opinions or recommendations
                          herein are those of the author
                          and not of his employer.
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