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Some questions about Self (Transcript, Modules, Browsing Subobjects, Debugging, defaultBehavior)

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  • shanenbe
    Hi all, I am relatively new in Self and have a bunch of questions (I am using Self 4.4 alpha2/Linux). 1. Transcript I wanted to implement something such as
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 3, 2009
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      Hi all,

      I am relatively new in Self and have a bunch of questions (I am using Self 4.4 alpha2/Linux).

      1. Transcript
      I wanted to implement something such as Transcript - but I saw that there is already such an object (but I cannot open it).

      transcript copy show.

      ends with a "depth not found"-error. Is it maybe a restriction of my linux, or does transcript really has this problem?

      2. Modules
      Is there an easy way to see what elements are in a module? For examples, I added a module "shChanges" which I open via "modules shChanges". Can I see somehow what objects exist in this module?

      3. Subobjects of a certain object
      Is there a way to see what objects are subobjects of a given one? For
      example, if I have an outliner for "defaultBehavior". Is there a way to get a list of all object which use defaultBehavior as parent?

      4. Debugging
      Is there a way to evaluate an object which is shown in the debugger. For example, if I have a error in a statement such as

      doPrint: myObject doSomething

      and I want to inspect myObject. Does the debugger provide such a thing? Can I evaluate a statement using the context of the debugger?


      5. Design decision with defaultBehavior
      I am slightly confused about the design decision that not every object has defaultBehavior as super object. Is this intended in that way or rather "an accident"? The reason why it confuses me is, that i cannot use a new created object within a collection (since slots for e.g. comparing objects are not available).

      -Stefan
    • Russell Allen
      Hi Stefan, Glad to see you re interested in Self! I ve put some quick answers below. Let me know if they re helpful. On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 09:48:15 -0000,
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 3, 2009
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        Hi Stefan,

        Glad to see you're interested in Self! I've put some quick answers below.
        Let me know if they're helpful.

        On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 09:48:15 -0000, "shanenbe"
        <stefan.hanenberg@...-due.de> wrote:
        > Hi all,
        >
        > I am relatively new in Self and have a bunch of questions (I am using
        Self
        > 4.4 alpha2/Linux).
        >
        > 1. Transcript
        > I wanted to implement something such as Transcript - but I saw that there
        > is already such an object (but I cannot open it).
        >
        > transcript copy show.
        >
        > ends with a "depth not found"-error. Is it maybe a restriction of my
        linux,
        > or does transcript really has this problem?

        I'm not sure offhand what the 'transcript' object is supposed to be doing*.
        It's not the equivalent of a Smalltalk80 Transcript though. Self usually
        uses stdout instead of a separate 'transcript'. It is normally a live
        file, so you can do

        stdout write: 'Hello'

        for example, which should do what you expect it to. The messages 'print'
        and 'printLine' print by default to stdout.

        * I did some searching. 'Transcript' is part of ui1 (ie the ui before
        morphic). Hmm. UI1 is great fun, but probably should be moved to a separate
        download rather than putting it in the Clean snapshot.

        > 2. Modules
        > Is there an easy way to see what elements are in a module? For examples,
        I
        > added a module "shChanges" which I open via "modules shChanges". Can I
        see
        > somehow what objects exist in this module?

        Modules are sets of slots with information on where those slots are placed
        in relation to the lobby.

        If you open an outliner on "modules shChanges", you will see that it has a
        parent "modules init parent"; opening an outliner on that will let you see
        what messages modules understand. "slotsInMeAndAllSubparts" might be good
        place to start.

        This might be a little low level for what you are looking for, though.

        > 3. Subobjects of a certain object
        > Is there a way to see what objects are subobjects of a given one? For
        > example, if I have an outliner for "defaultBehavior". Is there a way to
        get
        > a list of all object which use defaultBehavior as parent?

        Bring up the orange/brown menu on the outliner, and choose "children".

        > 4. Debugging
        > Is there a way to evaluate an object which is shown in the debugger. For
        > example, if I have a error in a statement such as
        >
        > doPrint: myObject doSomething
        >
        > and I want to inspect myObject. Does the debugger provide such a thing?
        Can
        > I evaluate a statement using the context of the debugger?

        You should be able to get an outliner on "myObject" by clicking the word
        "myObject" in the debugger.

        Not sure about evaluating statements in the context of the debugger - do
        you mean without changing the existing frames?

        You might find this useful if you haven't read it yet:
        http://docs.selflanguage.org/howtoprg.html

        > 5. Design decision with defaultBehavior
        > I am slightly confused about the design decision that not every object
        has
        > defaultBehavior as super object. Is this intended in that way or rather
        "an
        > accident"? The reason why it confuses me is, that i cannot use a new
        > created object within a collection (since slots for e.g. comparing
        objects
        > are not available).

        I'll let the designers discuss the design choices :) but as I see it Self
        tends to err on the side of allowing developer choice and power rather than
        building stuff into the language (eg you can create a class based system on
        top of Self if you want, but if you don't want to you don't need to ---
        classes aren't built into the language). The Handbook says that "It is
        entirely permissible to construct objects that do not inherit from the
        lobby, and the Self world contains quite a few such objects."

        In practice I don't find naked objects as much of a problem as initially I
        would have thought. This could be because:

        - I find myself using collections less than in other languages such as
        python, and more bespoke objects to hold my data. This could also be
        because the outliners at the moment don't give enough support for
        collections (something I would like to fix)
        - I'm used to making my objects share 'traits oddball' or 'traits clonable'
        as appropriate (not just for collections --- objects that don't inherit the
        lobby don't understand 'true' or 'false' etc either)

        eg (| parent* = traits clonable. mySlot = 20. otherSlot <- true. myMethod =
        (| | otherSlot = false ) |)

        While I've got you, one unrelated question: How do you start your Self
        snapshot/vm? There are a number of ways and I was recently surprised that
        someone was doing things in a convoluted way I didn't expect, so I'm trying
        to get a feel for how people are using it (especially on Linux, which is a
        new platform for us)

        --Russell


        >
        > -Stefan
      • Russell Allen
        Hmm. Lets try that again! Hi Stefan, Glad to see you re interested in Self! I ve put some quick answers below. Let me know if they re helpful. On Thu, 03 Dec
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 3, 2009
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          Hmm. Lets try that again!

          Hi Stefan,

          Glad to see you're interested in Self! I've put some quick answers below.
          Let me know if they're helpful.

          On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 09:48:15 -0000, "shanenbe"
          <stefan.hanenberg@...-due.de> wrote:
          > Hi all,
          >
          > I am relatively new in Self and have a bunch of questions (I am using
          Self
          > 4.4 alpha2/Linux).
          >
          > 1. Transcript
          > I wanted to implement something such as Transcript - but I saw that there
          > is already such an object (but I cannot open it).
          >
          > transcript copy show.
          >
          > ends with a "depth not found"-error. Is it maybe a restriction of my
          linux,
          > or does transcript really has this problem?
          >

          I'm not sure offhand what the 'transcript' object is supposed to be doing*.
          It's not the equivalent of a Smalltalk80 Transcript though. Self usually
          uses stdout instead of a separate 'transcript'. It is normally a live
          file, so you can do

          stdout write: 'Hello'

          for example, which should do what you expect it to. The messages 'print'
          and 'printLine' print by default to stdout.

          * I did some searching. 'Transcript' is part of ui1 (ie the ui before
          morphic). Hmm. UI1 is great fun, but probably should be moved to a separate
          download rather than putting it in the Clean snapshot.

          > 2. Modules
          > Is there an easy way to see what elements are in a module? For examples,
          I
          > added a module "shChanges" which I open via "modules shChanges". Can I
          see
          > somehow what objects exist in this module?
          >

          Modules are sets of slots with information on where those slots are placed
          in relation to the lobby.

          If you open an outliner on "modules shChanges", you will see that it has a
          parent "modules init parent"; opening an outliner on that will let you see
          what messages modules understand. "slotsInMeAndAllSubparts" might be good
          place to start.

          This might be a little low level for what you are looking for, though.

          > 3. Subobjects of a certain object
          > Is there a way to see what objects are subobjects of a given one? For
          > example, if I have an outliner for "defaultBehavior". Is there a way to
          get
          > a list of all object which use defaultBehavior as parent?
          >

          Bring up the orange/brown menu on the outliner, and choose "children".

          > 4. Debugging
          > Is there a way to evaluate an object which is shown in the debugger. For
          > example, if I have a error in a statement such as
          >
          > doPrint: myObject doSomething
          >
          > and I want to inspect myObject. Does the debugger provide such a thing?
          Can
          > I evaluate a statement using the context of the debugger?
          >

          You should be able to get an outliner on "myObject" by clicking the word
          "myObject" in the debugger.

          Not sure about evaluating statements in the context of the debugger - do
          you mean without changing the existing frames?

          You might find this useful if you haven't read it yet:
          http://docs.selflanguage.org/howtoprg.html

          >
          > 5. Design decision with defaultBehavior
          > I am slightly confused about the design decision that not every object
          has
          > defaultBehavior as super object. Is this intended in that way or rather
          "an
          > accident"? The reason why it confuses me is, that i cannot use a new
          > created object within a collection (since slots for e.g. comparing
          objects
          > are not available).
          >

          I'll let the designers discuss the design choices :) but as I see it Self
          tends to err on the side of allowing developer choice and power rather than
          building stuff into the language (eg you can create a class based system on
          top of Self if you want, but if you don't want to you don't need to ---
          classes aren't built into the language). The Handbook says that "It is
          entirely permissible to construct objects that do not inherit from the
          lobby, and the Self world contains quite a few such objects."

          In practice I don't find naked objects as much of a problem as initially I
          would have thought. This could be because:

          - I find myself using collections less than in other languages such as
          python, and more bespoke objects to hold my data. This could also be
          because the outliners at the moment don't give enough support for
          collections (something I would like to fix)
          - I'm used to making my objects share 'traits oddball' or 'traits clonable'
          as appropriate (not just for collections --- objects that don't inherit the
          lobby don't understand 'true' or 'false' etc either)

          eg (| parent* = traits clonable. mySlot = 20. otherSlot <- true. myMethod =
          (| | otherSlot = false ) |)

          While I've got you, one unrelated question: How do you start your Self
          snapshot/vm? There are a number of ways and I was recently surprised that
          someone was doing things in a convoluted way I didn't expect, so I'm trying
          to get a feel for how people are using it (especially on Linux, which is a
          new platform for us)

          --Russell


          > -Stefan
        • Stefan Hanenberg
          Many thanks for the answers (I will give some comments in a separate mail). ... I do not exactly know what kind of answer you expect....but lets see ;-) I
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 4, 2009
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            Many thanks for the answers (I will give some comments in a separate mail).

            Russell Allen schrieb:
            > While I've got you, one unrelated question: How do you start your Self
            > snapshot/vm? There are a number of ways and I was recently surprised that
            > someone was doing things in a convoluted way I didn't expect, so I'm trying
            > to get a feel for how people are using it (especially on Linux, which is a
            > new platform for us)

            I do not exactly know what "kind of answer" you expect....but lets see ;-)

            I did the installation of self in the "ordinary way" (having the binary
            accessible in /usr/bin). I start a snapshot via "self -s MySnaphot.snap".

            2 things that seem to be somehow strange:

            1.
            I used self first with a live-version of ubuntu 9.3. There, the refresh
            (or redraw) of the world-object did not work right: whenever I opened
            the Demo snapshot and scrolled right in the world object, "a chaotic
            collection of pixels was shown". Just taking one window into the hand
            and "wipe over the world" corrected it. Now, I am using a regular
            installation of Ubuntu 9.10 and this effect is no longer there. I do not
            know whether this effect depends on the live version or on ubuntu 9.3.

            2.
            Whenever I saved a snapshop and reopen it in the way as described above,
            I always get the following message:

            ##############################################################
            VM version: 4.1.13

            Adjusting VM for better UI2 performance:
            _MaxPICSize: 25
            "Self 1" _Flush
            Could not open display "ROSE:0.0", error: primitiveFailedError
            1. Try Again
            2. Try Local Display
            3. Give Up
            ##############################################################

            (rose is the name of my machine)

            3.
            Leaving self from the terminal is slightly "unwieldy": I have to press
            CTRL-C for some times, say that I really want to leave Self, etc.


            By the way.....since we are near christmas....
            It would be great to have windows version of self (I know, much
            work...someone has to do it), since it would be easier to convince some
            of my students to "play a little bit with self".

            ....just a comment....since it is almost christmas ;-)

            - Stefan
          • Stefan Hanenberg
            ... Ok, thanks. I agree that it is a great think to let Self write on the stdout, but I prefer to have something such as a transcript that I can see directly
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 4, 2009
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              Russell Allen schrieb:

              > I'm not sure offhand what the 'transcript' object is supposed to be doing*.
              > It's not the equivalent of a Smalltalk80 Transcript though. Self usually
              > uses stdout instead of a separate 'transcript'. It is normally a live
              > file, so you can do
              >
              > stdout write: 'Hello'
              >
              > for example, which should do what you expect it to. The messages 'print'
              > and 'printLine' print by default to stdout.
              >
              > * I did some searching. 'Transcript' is part of ui1 (ie the ui before
              > morphic). Hmm. UI1 is great fun, but probably should be moved to a separate
              > download rather than putting it in the Clean snapshot.

              Ok, thanks.

              I agree that it is a great think to let Self write on the stdout, but I
              prefer to have something such as a transcript that I can see directly in
              my self window. I think this a good small project for me to get more
              into self ;-)

              -Stefan
            • Stefan Hanenberg
              ... I found it, thanks. To be honest...yes, slightly low-level, but maybe a small gui will do it here (I think it is similar to you comment on outliners and
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 4, 2009
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                Russell Allen schrieb:
                >> 2. Modules
                >> Is there an easy way to see what elements are in a module? For examples,
                > I
                >> added a module "shChanges" which I open via "modules shChanges". Can I
                > see
                >> somehow what objects exist in this module?
                >>
                >
                > Modules are sets of slots with information on where those slots are placed
                > in relation to the lobby.
                >
                > If you open an outliner on "modules shChanges", you will see that it has a
                > parent "modules init parent"; opening an outliner on that will let you see
                > what messages modules understand. "slotsInMeAndAllSubparts" might be good
                > place to start.
                >
                > This might be a little low level for what you are looking for, though.

                I found it, thanks. To be honest...yes, slightly low-level, but maybe a
                small gui will do it here (I think it is similar to you comment on
                "outliners and lists": a better list outliner would maybe already do the
                job).

                - Stefan
              • Chris Double
                On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Stefan Hanenberg ... Possibly this error: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/self-interest/message/2074 That post has a
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 4, 2009
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                  On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Stefan Hanenberg
                  <stefan.hanenberg@...-due.de> wrote:
                  >
                  > Whenever I saved a snapshop and reopen it in the way as described above,
                  > I always get the following message:

                  Possibly this error:

                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/self-interest/message/2074

                  That post has a workaround for it as well.

                  Chris.
                  --
                  http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz
                • Chris Double
                  ... Oops, maybe not. Re-reading your error message I missed the _Flush part. Different error I think. Chris. -- http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 4, 2009
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                    On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:30 AM, Chris Double <chris@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Possibly this error:

                    Oops, maybe not. Re-reading your error message I missed the '_Flush'
                    part. Different error I think.

                    Chris.
                    --
                    http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz
                  • Russell Allen
                    Hi Stefan, Sorry for the delay in replying! ... Thanks, this is a good way. Have you tried making the snapshot executable and running it? That should also
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 14, 2009
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                      Hi Stefan,

                      Sorry for the delay in replying!

                      On 04/12/2009, at 9:45 PM, Stefan Hanenberg wrote:

                       

                      Many thanks for the answers (I will give some comments in a separate mail).

                      Russell Allen schrieb:
                      > While I've got you, one unrelated question: How do you start your Self
                      > snapshot/vm? There are a number of ways and I was recently surprised that
                      > someone was doing things in a convoluted way I didn't expect, so I'm trying
                      > to get a feel for how people are using it (especially on Linux, which is a
                      > new platform for us)

                      I do not exactly know what "kind of answer" you expect....but lets see ;-)

                      I did the installation of self in the "ordinary way" (having the binary
                      accessible in /usr/bin). I start a snapshot via "self -s MySnaphot.snap" .

                      Thanks, this is a good way.  Have you tried making the snapshot executable and running it?  That should also work, assuming that you have run the INSTALL shellscript (which puts a link to the Self binary at /usr/bin/Self) or otherwise put the Self binary on your path.

                      2 things that seem to be somehow strange:

                      1.
                      I used self first with a live-version of ubuntu 9.3. There, the refresh
                      (or redraw) of the world-object did not work right: whenever I opened
                      the Demo snapshot and scrolled right in the world object, "a chaotic
                      collection of pixels was shown". Just taking one window into the hand
                      and "wipe over the world" corrected it. Now, I am using a regular
                      installation of Ubuntu 9.10 and this effect is no longer there. I do not
                      know whether this effect depends on the live version or on ubuntu 9.3.

                      Odd. I haven't seen this myself.  If it happens to me I will investigate it, but as it works for your new Ubuntu I think I'll leave it alone for now.

                      2.
                      Whenever I saved a snapshop and reopen it in the way as described above,
                      I always get the following message:

                      ############ ######### ######### ######### ######### ######### #####
                      VM version: 4.1.13

                      Adjusting VM for better UI2 performance:
                      _MaxPICSize: 25
                      "Self 1" _Flush
                      Could not open display "ROSE:0.0", error: primitiveFailedErro r
                      1. Try Again
                      2. Try Local Display
                      3. Give Up
                      ############ ######### ######### ######### ######### ######### #####

                      (rose is the name of my machine)

                      I can reproduce this and will look into the best way of fixing it before the next release (which is due soon).  I assume that when you choose "Try Local Display" it works?

                      3.
                      Leaving self from the terminal is slightly "unwieldy": I have to press
                      CTRL-C for some times, say that I really want to leave Self, etc.

                      If you are in the normal Self 'shell' you should be able to say 'quit' and choose 'n' when asked if you want to save the image (or y if you do).

                      If you are in the debugger, ^d should stop Self at once.


                      By the way.....since we are near christmas... .
                      It would be great to have windows version of self (I know, much
                      work...someone has to do it), since it would be easier to convince some
                      of my students to "play a little bit with self".

                      ....just a comment....since it is almost christmas ;-)

                      I will ask Santa nicely... but I suspect I am more likely to get coal in my stocking :) :)

                      - Russell





                    • Russell Allen
                      Hi guys, Assuming I wanted to set up a Self bugtracker---and didn t want to take the time to write one myself in Self :) ---does anyone have any suggestions on
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 14, 2009
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                        Hi guys,

                        Assuming I wanted to set up a Self bugtracker---and didn't want to take the time to write one myself in Self :) ---does anyone have any suggestions on what to use?

                        Open source (or free to use), works on Linux and easy to set up and use would seem to be the only criteria.

                        We're already using Github.com for source and wordpress.com for the blog, so I guess a hosted bugtracker would be fine as well...

                        Thoughts?

                        Russell
                      • Michael Latta
                        Lighthouseapp.com is quite good. Michael On Dec 14, 2009, at 3:30 AM, Russell Allen
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 14, 2009
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                          Lighthouseapp.com is quite good.


                          Michael

                          On Dec 14, 2009, at 3:30 AM, Russell Allen <mail@...>
                          wrote:

                          > Hi guys,
                          >
                          > Assuming I wanted to set up a Self bugtracker---and didn't want to
                          > take the time to write one myself in Self :) ---does anyone have any
                          > suggestions on what to use?
                          >
                          > Open source (or free to use), works on Linux and easy to set up and
                          > use would seem to be the only criteria.
                          >
                          > We're already using Github.com for source and wordpress.com for the
                          > blog, so I guess a hosted bugtracker would be fine as well...
                          >
                          > Thoughts?
                          >
                          > Russell
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Russell Allen
                          Thanks Michael, I ll have a look at it. -Russell
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 15, 2009
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                            Thanks Michael, I'll have a look at it.

                            -Russell

                            On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:02:50 -0700, Michael Latta <lattam@...> wrote:
                            > Lighthouseapp.com is quite good.
                            >
                            >
                            > Michael
                            >
                            > On Dec 14, 2009, at 3:30 AM, Russell Allen <mail@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            >> Hi guys,
                            >>
                            >> Assuming I wanted to set up a Self bugtracker---and didn't want to
                            >> take the time to write one myself in Self :) ---does anyone have any
                            >> suggestions on what to use?
                            >>
                            >> Open source (or free to use), works on Linux and easy to set up and
                            >> use would seem to be the only criteria.
                            >>
                            >> We're already using Github.com for source and wordpress.com for the
                            >> blog, so I guess a hosted bugtracker would be fine as well...
                            >>
                            >> Thoughts?
                            >>
                            >> Russell
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                          • Gregory Burd
                            Russell, For a long time I had a Self project setup on Launchpad as a place-holder, you could request for that to be re-opened (or I could for you).
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 15, 2009
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                              Russell,

                              For a long time I had a "Self" project setup on Launchpad as a place-holder, you could request for that to be re-opened (or I could for you).  FogBugz.com does an excellent job as well and can be integrated with GitHub.  I believe GitHub itself can be an issue tracker for a project.  There are a lot of these around.  The question to ask yourself first is what you want from the service.

                              -greg


                              On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 4:18 AM, Russell Allen <mail@...> wrote:
                               

                              Thanks Michael, I'll have a look at it.

                              -Russell



                              On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:02:50 -0700, Michael Latta <lattam@...> wrote:
                              > Lighthouseapp.com is quite good.
                              >
                              >
                              > Michael
                              >
                              > On Dec 14, 2009, at 3:30 AM, Russell Allen <mail@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> Hi guys,
                              >>
                              >> Assuming I wanted to set up a Self bugtracker---and didn't want to
                              >> take the time to write one myself in Self :) ---does anyone have any
                              >> suggestions on what to use?
                              >>
                              >> Open source (or free to use), works on Linux and easy to set up and
                              >> use would seem to be the only criteria.
                              >>
                              >> We're already using Github.com for source and wordpress.com for the
                              >> blog, so I guess a hosted bugtracker would be fine as well...
                              >>
                              >> Thoughts?
                              >>
                              >> Russell
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>


                            • Steve Dekorte
                              ... Yes, I recommend using the github issue tracker if the project is on github.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 15, 2009
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                                On 2009-12-15, at 7:04 AM, Gregory Burd wrote:
                                > I believe GitHub itself can be an issue tracker for a project.

                                Yes, I recommend using the github issue tracker if the project is on github.
                              • Russell Allen
                                If its just a matter of keeping track of bugs then a piece of scrap paper would probably do it :) I think an issue tracker only makes sense if it is
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 15, 2009
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                                  If its just a matter of keeping track of bugs then a piece of scrap paper
                                  would probably do it :)

                                  I think an issue tracker only makes sense if it is public-oriented way of
                                  showing Self users and interested parties what we're aware of and what
                                  we're planning.

                                  So simplicity, clarity and friendliness would seem primary characteristics.

                                  Github looks a bit too minimal, Fogbugz looks a little too comprehensive;
                                  Lighthouse is looking good.

                                  -Russell


                                  On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:04:50 -0500, Gregory Burd <gburd@...> wrote:
                                  > Russell,
                                  >
                                  > For a long time I had a "Self" project setup on Launchpad as a
                                  > place-holder,
                                  > you could request for that to be re-opened (or I could for you).
                                  > FogBugz.com does an excellent job as well and can be integrated with
                                  > GitHub. I believe GitHub itself can be an issue tracker for a project.
                                  > There are a lot of these around. The question to ask yourself first is
                                  > what you want from the service.
                                  >
                                  > -greg
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 4:18 AM, Russell Allen
                                  > <mail@...>wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Thanks Michael, I'll have a look at it.
                                  >>
                                  >> -Russell
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:02:50 -0700, Michael Latta
                                  >> <lattam@...<lattam%40mac.com>>
                                  >> wrote:
                                  >> > Lighthouseapp.com is quite good.
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Michael
                                  >> >
                                  >> > On Dec 14, 2009, at 3:30 AM, Russell Allen
                                  >> > <mail@...<mail%40russell-allen.com>>
                                  >>
                                  >> > wrote:
                                  >> >
                                  >> >> Hi guys,
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >> Assuming I wanted to set up a Self bugtracker---and didn't want to
                                  >> >> take the time to write one myself in Self :) ---does anyone have any
                                  >> >> suggestions on what to use?
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >> Open source (or free to use), works on Linux and easy to set up and
                                  >> >> use would seem to be the only criteria.
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >> We're already using Github.com for source and wordpress.com for the
                                  >> >> blog, so I guess a hosted bugtracker would be fine as well...
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >> Thoughts?
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >> Russell
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >> ------------------------------------
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                • Steve Dekorte
                                  ... The value is in allowing users to report a bug in a clear way that doesn t give them the feeling that it s disappearing into a black hole (ie email).
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 15, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On 2009-12-15, at 2:45 PM, Russell Allen wrote:
                                    > If its just a matter of keeping track of bugs then a piece of scrap paper
                                    > would probably do it :)

                                    The value is in allowing users to report a bug in a clear way that doesn't give them the feeling that it's disappearing into a black hole (ie email).
                                  • doublecnz
                                    ... I had a got at fixing this and I ve attached what I think is the fix in the bugtracker:
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 2, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In self-interest@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Hanenberg <stefan.hanenberg@...> wrote:
                                      > Adjusting VM for better UI2 performance:
                                      > _MaxPICSize: 25
                                      > "Self 1" _Flush
                                      > Could not open display "ROSE:0.0", error: primitiveFailedError
                                      > 1. Try Again
                                      > 2. Try Local Display
                                      > 3. Give Up

                                      I had a got at fixing this and I've attached what I think is the fix in the bugtracker:

                                      <http://self.lighthouseapp.com/projects/42988/tickets/1-linux-display-wont-reopen-after-saving-world-in-new-snapshot#ticket-1-2>

                                      Chris.
                                      --
                                      http://bluishcoder.co.nz
                                    • Russell Allen
                                      Hi Chris, That s great - thanks very much for that. I ll have a look at getting these integrated. Cheers, Russell On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:22:01 -0000,
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Feb 2, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Chris,

                                        That's great - thanks very much for that. I'll have a look at getting
                                        these integrated.

                                        Cheers, Russell



                                        On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:22:01 -0000, "doublecnz"
                                        <chris.double@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > --- In self-interest@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Hanenberg
                                        > <stefan.hanenberg@...> wrote:
                                        >> Adjusting VM for better UI2 performance:
                                        >> _MaxPICSize: 25
                                        >> "Self 1" _Flush
                                        >> Could not open display "ROSE:0.0", error: primitiveFailedError
                                        >> 1. Try Again
                                        >> 2. Try Local Display
                                        >> 3. Give Up
                                        >
                                        > I had a got at fixing this and I've attached what I think is the fix in
                                        > the bugtracker:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        <http://self.lighthouseapp.com/projects/42988/tickets/1-linux-display-wont-reopen-after-saving-world-in-new-snapshot#ticket-1-2>
                                        >
                                        > Chris.
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