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Getting someone to port Self

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  • Russell Allen
    Hello, I m interested in making a number of improvements/changes to Self, not for any particular commercial motive but out of general interest in Self and its
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 22, 2008
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      Hello,

      I'm interested in making a number of improvements/changes to Self, not
      for any particular commercial motive but out of general interest in
      Self and its ideas.

      A good starting point for this would be getting the Self VM working
      properly on linux and Windows.

      Unfortunately, I'm not a C++ person, and the learning curve is a bit
      too steep and my time too limited to do it myself.

      What I was wondering was whether anyone on this list knew any students
      who would be interested in doing the porting work. I would be prepared
      to put some money towards the effort of porting if it would help,
      though obviously my budget is pretty limited. Everything done would
      be released under the same open source licence as the rest of Self.

      I'm open to any alternative ideas on how to get there too!

      Best wishes,

      Russell
    • Jeff Brown
      Why not build a Self interpreter on the .Net Dynamic Language Runtime? Sure, the performance won t be as good as native but you ll get more portability in the
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 19, 2008
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        Why not build a Self interpreter on the .Net Dynamic Language Runtime?
        Sure, the performance won't be as good as native but you'll get more portability in the long term.
         
        Jeff.


        From: self-interest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:self-interest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Allen
        Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 5:25 AM
        To: Self Mailing List
        Subject: [self-interest] Getting someone to port Self

        Hello,

        I'm interested in making a number of improvements/ changes to Self, not
        for any particular commercial motive but out of general interest in
        Self and its ideas.

        A good starting point for this would be getting the Self VM working
        properly on linux and Windows.

        Unfortunately, I'm not a C++ person, and the learning curve is a bit
        too steep and my time too limited to do it myself.

        What I was wondering was whether anyone on this list knew any students
        who would be interested in doing the porting work. I would be prepared
        to put some money towards the effort of porting if it would help,
        though obviously my budget is pretty limited. Everything done would
        be released under the same open source licence as the rest of Self.

        I'm open to any alternative ideas on how to get there too!

        Best wishes,

        Russell

      • Russell Allen
        Hi Jeff, There have been attempts to get Self running on the JVM (which I am more familiar with since it is open source and cross platform); as you indicated,
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 21, 2008
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          Hi Jeff,

          There have been attempts to get Self running on the JVM (which I am more
          familiar with since it is open source and cross platform); as you
          indicated, it seems that you pay a speed price for being on a VM that
          doesn't quite fit but on the other hand should be potentially able to take
          advantage of a well written VM and lots of premade libraries. Certainly
          jython, jRuby and Groovy seem to show it could be done...

          Do you see any advantages of .Net over the JVM?

          Russell


          On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:56:00 +1000, Jeff Brown <jeff.brown@...>
          wrote:

          > Why not build a Self interpreter on the .Net Dynamic Language Runtime?
          > Sure, the performance won't be as good as native but you'll get more
          > portability in the long term.
          > Jeff.
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: self-interest@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:self-interest@yahoogroups.com]
          > On Behalf Of Russell Allen
          > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 5:25 AM
          > To: Self Mailing List
          > Subject: [self-interest] Getting someone to port Self
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello,
          >
          > I'm interested in making a number of improvements/changes to Self, not
          > for any particular commercial motive but out of general interest in
          > Self and its ideas.
          >
          > A good starting point for this would be getting the Self VM working
          > properly on linux and Windows.
          >
          > Unfortunately, I'm not a C++ person, and the learning curve is a bit
          > too steep and my time too limited to do it myself.
          >
          > What I was wondering was whether anyone on this list knew any students
          > who would be interested in doing the porting work. I would be prepared
          > to put some money towards the effort of porting if it would help,
          > though obviously my budget is pretty limited. Everything done would
          > be released under the same open source licence as the rest of Self.
          >
          > I'm open to any alternative ideas on how to get there too!
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Russell
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Michael Latta
          The DLR (the layer on the CLR designed for dynamic languages) adds support for dynamic languages and packages up some of the concerns, which on the JVM you
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 21, 2008
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            The DLR (the layer on the CLR designed for dynamic languages) adds
            support for dynamic languages and packages up some of the concerns,
            which on the JVM you would need to roll yourself. The underlying CLR
            has a few more hooks for dynamic languages than does the JVM. In J2EE
            7 they have said they will be adding a new op-code to better support
            dynamic language dispatch, which may even the field in terms of the
            basic VM support.

            In any case you may find a much better fit with the new javascript VMs
            that are coming out of webkit and FireFox. They are very high
            performance, and do not have the strong typing basis that both the JVM
            and CLR assume. Other than syntax javascript is very compatible with
            self in its concepts.

            Michael



            On Sep 21, 2008, at 3:15 AM, Russell Allen wrote:

            > Hi Jeff,
            >
            > There have been attempts to get Self running on the JVM (which I am
            > more
            > familiar with since it is open source and cross platform); as you
            > indicated, it seems that you pay a speed price for being on a VM that
            > doesn't quite fit but on the other hand should be potentially able
            > to take
            > advantage of a well written VM and lots of premade libraries.
            > Certainly
            > jython, jRuby and Groovy seem to show it could be done...
            >
            > Do you see any advantages of .Net over the JVM?
            >
            > Russell
            >
            >
            > On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:56:00 +1000, Jeff Brown <jeff.brown@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            >> Why not build a Self interpreter on the .Net Dynamic Language
            >> Runtime?
            >> Sure, the performance won't be as good as native but you'll get more
            >> portability in the long term.
            >> Jeff.
            >>
            >> _____
            >>
            >> From: self-interest@yahoogroups.com
            >> [mailto:self-interest@yahoogroups.com]
            >> On Behalf Of Russell Allen
            >> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 5:25 AM
            >> To: Self Mailing List
            >> Subject: [self-interest] Getting someone to port Self
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Hello,
            >>
            >> I'm interested in making a number of improvements/changes to Self,
            >> not
            >> for any particular commercial motive but out of general interest in
            >> Self and its ideas.
            >>
            >> A good starting point for this would be getting the Self VM working
            >> properly on linux and Windows.
            >>
            >> Unfortunately, I'm not a C++ person, and the learning curve is a bit
            >> too steep and my time too limited to do it myself.
            >>
            >> What I was wondering was whether anyone on this list knew any
            >> students
            >> who would be interested in doing the porting work. I would be
            >> prepared
            >> to put some money towards the effort of porting if it would help,
            >> though obviously my budget is pretty limited. Everything done would
            >> be released under the same open source licence as the rest of Self.
            >>
            >> I'm open to any alternative ideas on how to get there too!
            >>
            >> Best wishes,
            >>
            >> Russell
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Toby Ovod-Everett
            ... Speaking of JavaScript, did anyone notice the reference to Self in the design docs for V8? V8 is the new JavaScript engine that Google wrote for Chrome.
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 21, 2008
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              On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:03:20AM -0700, Michael Latta wrote:
              > In any case you may find a much better fit with the new javascript VMs
              > that are coming out of webkit and FireFox. They are very high
              > performance, and do not have the strong typing basis that both the JVM
              > and CLR assume. Other than syntax javascript is very compatible with
              > self in its concepts.

              Speaking of JavaScript, did anyone notice the reference to Self in the design
              docs for V8? V8 is the new JavaScript engine that Google wrote for Chrome.
              See http://code.google.com/apis/v8/design.html . :-) Hmmm. V8 is Open
              Source, and is portable to a number of platforms. It's pulling ideas from
              Self in order to get Self-like speeds in a prototyped language. Might be a
              good match . . .


              --Toby Ovod-everett
            • Russell Allen
              Javascript is still single-threaded isn t it? Or has V8 changed that? Russell On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:49:48 +1000, Toby Ovod-Everett
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 21, 2008
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                Javascript is still single-threaded isn't it? Or has V8 changed that?

                Russell

                On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:49:48 +1000, Toby Ovod-Everett
                <toby@...> wrote:

                > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:03:20AM -0700, Michael Latta wrote:
                >> In any case you may find a much better fit with the new javascript VMs
                >> that are coming out of webkit and FireFox. They are very high
                >> performance, and do not have the strong typing basis that both the JVM
                >> and CLR assume. Other than syntax javascript is very compatible with
                >> self in its concepts.
                >
                > Speaking of JavaScript, did anyone notice the reference to Self in the
                > design
                > docs for V8? V8 is the new JavaScript engine that Google wrote for
                > Chrome.
                > See http://code.google.com/apis/v8/design.html . :-) Hmmm. V8 is Open
                > Source, and is portable to a number of platforms. It's pulling ideas
                > from
                > Self in order to get Self-like speeds in a prototyped language. Might
                > be a
                > good match . . .
                >
                >
                > --Toby Ovod-everett
              • Chris Double
                ... V8 supports running JavaScript on multiple threads, but not at the same time. So a script running on one thread will pause while a script is running on
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 22, 2008
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                  On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Russell Allen <mail@...> wrote:
                  > Javascript is still single-threaded isn't it? Or has V8 changed that?
                  >

                  V8 supports running JavaScript on multiple threads, but not at the
                  same time. So a script running on one thread will pause while a script
                  is running on another. The switching between running threads is done
                  by explicit yield calls (by the JavaScript engine).

                  Relevant thread:
                  <http://groups.google.com/group/v8-users/browse_thread/thread/86fe6c3922d33b97/6f8919f6be7cf6e8>

                  Chris.
                  --
                  http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz
                • Mario Wolczko
                  ... Unsurprising, since Lars Bak worked on both the Self VM and was the principal on V8.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 22, 2008
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                    Speaking of JavaScript, did anyone notice the reference to Self in the design
                    docs for V8? V8 is the new JavaScript engine that Google wrote for Chrome.
                    See http://code. google.com/ apis/v8/design. html . :-) 

                    Unsurprising, since Lars Bak worked on both the Self VM and was the principal on V8.

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