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Re: Hey Gale! Look at this man :-)

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  • geoerdeaen
    ... Actually not. Politics iz abot dealing with societal power, legislative is only formalisation of these relations. But politics is pretty much over
    Message 1 of 32 , Aug 29, 2005
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      --- In sd-2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <parashakti108@y...> wrote:
      > --"geoerdeaen" wrote:
      > >G: A new political paradigm: Open politics
      > [...]
      > > Open politics requires full transparency of political action...
      > -M: At a legislative level, right?

      Actually not. Politics iz abot dealing with societal power,
      legislative is only formalisation of these relations. But politics is
      pretty much over legislative.

      > >G:... www.tiaktiv.org One more thing. Recently I wrote some new
      > texts about general concept, one of these things is "Trust network",
      > but I do not have translation for than.
      > -M: Trust network - that is SD2. How would you algorithmicly process
      > poll data?

      I am interested in your model :-)

      > >G: All in all, it seems extremely good thing you are doing, and I
      > strongly believe that it is the time for the NPS thanks to the
      > internet and possiblity to create new power based on Trust netoworks.
      > >G: One more thing. Do you have any people with you in this project?
      > -M: If there are any, they are here, you can ask.


      > >G: Did you try to create politcal base? I am aksing this because
      > that is whatI am actually doing in Croatia and synergy is allways
      > good thing :9 Best wishes! Gale gale1(@)vip.hr
      > -M: I am also getting response from WorldCitizen,
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldCitizen/
      > but people are getting stuck on the PageRank algorithm - they seem
      > to think that they are supposed to understand it.

      Oh, maybe I could help you in this part of project!

      Best regards!

      > shanti
      > Mark, Seattle
    • Mark
      ... a republican - I am for principled governance. When Bush went against WRITTEN agreements with the UN, this about caused me to flip- out. The world s first
      Message 32 of 32 , Sep 20, 2005
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        --Markus Schatten wrote:
        > Mark wrote:

        > > -M: We appear to be of a similar political mind-set. I am simply
        a republican - I am for principled governance. When Bush went
        against WRITTEN agreements with the UN, this about caused me to flip-
        out. The world's first federal democratic-republic has standards to
        uphold. We should NEVER violate written agreements. This all has the
        smell of *empire* - yuck! By contrast, I will uphold my word even
        with the enemy. I am even willing to protect the enemy from
        unprincipled allies. They can actually trust me more than they can
        trust themselves.

        >S: I like your attitude ;-) I do not consider my self as a
        politician or even a political activist. The only thing wich kind of
        forced me to get into this project is the fact that even if I don't
        mind about politics, nowdays politics still has me in mind. Later as
        I started to read more about politict I realized that I can't get
        any real facts and information about the real political processes,
        there's no bit of transparency.

        -M: Its all designed to be a flip'n head-trip - a puppet show.

        >S: Politicians nowdays are not the most trusted people, but people
        who will even kill to get more power. To be clear, I make a
        distinction between nowdays politics and politics as a science
        (politology). I think politics should be a science, a science wich
        tries to find the best solutions for the world as a whole.

        -M: Wouldn't that be 'political engineering','political design'
        or 'statecraft'?

        > >M: And now the response to Katrina has embarassed my country yet
        again. :-(

        >S: I saw that. Very sad story.

        -M: A British political cartoon showed Superman floating dead in
        floodwaters - terrible!

        Another showed Uncle Sam holding a dead body while government
        administators were all pointing fingers at each other. :-(

        I simply want benevolent order.

        > >>S: I was thinking about mobile phones (java midlets are very far
        these days), but was also thinking of using conventional channels
        like the press or even teletext.

        > >-M: Yes, moblie phones, leaflets AND teletext. Once a critcal
        mass is reached, such a movement could push its way even through a
        controlled media.

        >S: But the first thing is to reach the critical mass ;-)

        -M: I think that the key is simply to get results. Well run
        organizations using SD2 will speak for themselves.
        > >-M: This adds an element of spontenaety and serendipity.

        >S: Yes.

        -M: In addition to proximity detection, maybe they could transfer
        data, too. Like updating node values. Maybe based on RFID
        technology. Maybe this could be used for countryside town meetings.
        EXTREMELY CHEAP! $3.00?

        > >-M: The combination of web, leaflets, cellphones and teletext
        could serve as the next best thing to independent media (maybe even

        >S: Well, that's the approach we took on TiAktiv, hoping for the
        best :-)

        -M: I am an experienced activist - this will work.

        > >M: The beauty of SD2 is that its just an organizational method,
        not an ideology - so its hard for imperialists to detect and oppose.
        Infact, I encourage imperialists to use SD2 if they like.

        >S: That is a good thing. The information system wich we try to
        implement should be a platform for a transparent political process.
        SD-2 as a organizational method fits just in.

        -M: Cool.

        > >M: SD2 could even be marketed to the Chinese as a communistic

        >S: ;-))) But when they realize what it does...

        -M: Even though China isn't a real democracy, they are a republic,
        so they usually give reasons for whatever they do.

        What would they say about SD2? If everyone in a group was a commie,
        SD2 would select a commie. The people selected would just have a
        tendicy to be more intelligent and less entrenched than the rest.

        Hardliner: "SD2 tends to pick reformers!"

        Response: "So, are the reforms good? What would be the test of the
        quality of the reforms? Shouldn't the highest ranked determine what
        *good* policy is?"

        > >M: "Its for bringing about Marx's final stage of communism -
        decentralism." OR, "Its for making the communist party a more
        coherent entity." All this could be true. The most common and
        powerful form of propaganda is the truth.

        >S: Well, what is the truth? ;-)

        -M: Whats good about SD2 is that it can be used to find those who
        are most qualified to find the best approximations of the truth.

        >S: BTW. has there been any research or project on SD-2? Has someone
        tried to make an experiment on real people? (Sorry if something
        about this was posted allready)

        -M: Only pilot studies using PageRank. Fully operational SD2 hasn't
        been done yet (unless Timur has some secrets). Denis Bider of
        Slovenia did a polling of his Mensa group, I analyzed the data -
        infact the network graphic on the homepage is based on his data.

        Timur of Khidmat Foundation in Pakistan did a polling of Contact
        Youth - 16 teenage boys - all voting for each other in a SD2
        compliant way. Timur was very happy about the results and plans to
        organize two villages in Pakistan with my system. You can see the
        network graphic based on his data in the photos section, or on my
        profile page.

        Timur, are you reading these posts? How are you doing?

        > >-M: The more platforms, the better. The idea is to make it as
        > >convenient for people as possible.

        >S: I agree.
        > >The American Java-based program also has PageRank in it:
        > >http://jung.sourceforge.net/download.html
        > >This is an applet with PageRank in Java:
        > >http://webworkshop.net/pagerank_calculator.php

        >S: I saw the two implementations. I'll could program it.

        -M: Rock'n.

        > >S: Could you make a macro for a StarOffice spreadsheet?

        >S: I never worked with starOffice, but I could make you a macro for

        -M: I am assuming that this is a Linux based spreadsheet, if so,
        absolutely. :-)

        > >1. Names of all participants would be listed.
        > >2. Who these people vote for would follow.
        > >3. The voter would have the option to weight the votes or not.
        > >4. If the voter doesn't weight the votes, then it would be normal
        > >PageRank with the constraint of at least two votes.
        > >5. If the voter does weight the votes, then its within my
        prescribed constraints of having the highest two with equal weights,
        then descending weights, Borda-count style.
        > >6. The output would list the participants in order by rank, with
        a percentage of total rank at the side.
        > >Sound good?

        >S: Shouldn't be hard do to program it, but I will need more

        -M: The rest is just PageRank. The people are the nodes, and the
        constraints that I listed are the modifications to PageRank.

        > >S: If you program this, I'll show it to the students at the
        University of Washington.

        >S: OK, but I'm in a rush now. I have to program to applications
        till the end of the month. When I finish them I'll try to make you
        the macro.

        -M: OK.

        Mark, Seattle
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