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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

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  • Schiel James - SHS Malvern
    Keith, I d have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 6 7:28 AM
      Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
       
      So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
       
      Good luck!!
       
      Jim Schiel
      CSM Trainer


      From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

      Keith,

      I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
      advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
      feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

      My argument against:
      1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
      "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
      "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

      DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
      loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
      knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
      the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
      Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
      empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
      multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
      task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
      to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

      This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
      of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
      fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
      decision making.

      2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
      as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
      relationship building between the product owner and the development
      team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
      development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
      traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
      SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
      same time team advocates.

      3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
      impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
      then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
      professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
      professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
      that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
      more specifically on their area of expertise.

      Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
      there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
      It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
      wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
      curious to hear what others think on this subject.

      -- Victor Szalvay
      Danube Technologies, Inc.
      http://www.danube.com

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
      >
      Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
      >
      > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
      system
      > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
      as
      > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
      developer.
      >
      > What other experieneces have people had with having
      the scrummaster be
      > part of the working team?
      >
      >
      thanks,
      > --
      > Keith Sader
      > ksader@g...
      >
      href="http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader">http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
      >
      http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger


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    • Alfred Bailey
      Hi All, How does one become a CSM trainer? Thanks ... This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions USA, Inc. and are intended
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 6 7:51 AM

        Hi All,

         

        How does one become a CSM trainer?

         

        Thanks

         


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      • Lori Evans
        Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 6 8:02 AM
          Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:

          1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for whom they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are also on Sprint  2 as a developer.

          2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints) amongst developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they are SM.  For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons B and C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop, etc.

          We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our teams.  Thus far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however, see where it might lead to some sticky situations.

          Regards,
          Lori Evans
          Scrum Master/Developer



          Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@...>
          Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

          10/06/2005 10:28 AM
          Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                 
                  To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  cc:        
                  Subject:        RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



          Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
           
          So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
           
          Good luck!!
           
          Jim Schiel
          CSM Trainer


          From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
          Sent:
          Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
          To:
          scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject:
          [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?


          Keith,

          I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
          advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
          feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

          My argument against:
          1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
          "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
          "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

          DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
          loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
          knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
          the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
          Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
          empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
          multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
          task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
          to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

          This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
          of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
          fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
          decision making.

          2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
          as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
          relationship building between the product owner and the development
          team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
          development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
          traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
          SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
          same time team advocates.

          3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
          impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
          then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
          professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
          professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
          that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
          more specifically on their area of expertise.

          Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
          there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
          It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
          wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
          curious to hear what others think on this subject.

          -- Victor Szalvay
          Danube Technologies, Inc.

          http://www.danube.com

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
          > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
          >
          > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system
          > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
          as
          > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85% developer.
          >
          > What other experieneces have people had with having the scrummaster
          be
          > part of the working team?
          >
          > thanks,
          > --
          > Keith Sader
          > ksader@g...
          >
          http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
          >
          http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger




          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




          SPONSORED LINKS
          Scrum



          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions
          USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
          The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or
          otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing,
          copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may
          be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe
          you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and
          notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice@...

          Thank you


        • David A Barrett
          Victor, I must be in a contrary mood this week. :) As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see your point. But... Think about
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 6 8:03 AM
            Victor,

            I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

            As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
            your point. But...

            Think about this though:

            Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
            the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
            for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
            question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
            not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
            effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
            able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
            member.

            If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
            activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
            hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

            We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
            anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
            realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
            than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
            back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
            our Sprint planning.

            What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
            dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
            being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
            than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
            with the majority. That kind of thing.

            Dave Barrett,
            Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
          • Victor Szalvay
            Dave, Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we re on the same page. If you had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM, right? I think
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 6 9:06 AM
              Dave,

              Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we're on the same page. If you
              had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM,
              right?

              I think you're right in saying that for a small single team scrum org
              with a limited budget it's impractical to have a separate dedicated
              SM/facilitator, and in fact the effectiveness lost due to task
              switching may not outweigh the burden of a new hire. But there is a
              tipping point where economically it will save the organization money
              to dedicate a scrummaster (say, as the size of the team gets to 6,7,8,
              etc. or as the number of teams increases).

              My point was that some organizations act on a false efficiency:
              spreading people across separate teams (e.g., 20%/30%/50%) or having
              people play two or more roles that are more effectively done by
              separate people. What they forget is the effectiveness lost due to
              what DeMarco calls "task switching".

              One more clarifier:
              Pete Behrens blogged on my post and made an important distinction:
              http://trailridgeconsulting.typepad.com/pete_behre
              ns_blog/2005/10/process_facilit.html

              His point about organizational patterns/"architect also implements"
              relates to cross functionality. I believe the team should do whatever
              it takes to complete committed work inside the iteration, and most
              times that is best done by overlapping roles (cross functionality) to
              increase communication bandwidth, share knowledge, etc..
              DeMarco is referring to "task splitting". But "task" for agilists has
              a specialized meaning. The way I read DeMarco's meaning is splitting
              someone's time between totally unrelated tasks, like separate projects
              or in this case sharing two distinct and independent roles.

              -- Victor Szalvay
              Danube Technologies, Inc.
              http://www.danube.com

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, David A Barrett wrote:
              > Victor,
              >
              > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
              >
              > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I
              can see
              > your point. But...
              >
              > Think about this though:
              >
              > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams
              running at
              > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full
              time job
              > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch.
              The
              > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if
              he's
              > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's
              not as
              > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he
              won't be
              > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full
              time
              > member.
              >
              > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
              > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and
              first
              > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an
              advantage.
              >
              > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to
              contribute
              > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've
              come to
              > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for
              me to do
              > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've
              scaled
              > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development
              during
              > our Sprint planning.
              >
              > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team
              Member
              > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM
              role with
              > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings
              (other
              > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last
              and vote
              > with the majority. That kind of thing.
              >
              > Dave Barrett,
              > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
            • Victor Szalvay
              Hi Lori, Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you re further stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would have to bounce
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 6 9:31 AM
                Hi Lori,

                Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                have to bounce between. The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                focused after a switch.

                I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings. For
                empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                agile team. By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                the team composition every sprint. I worked with an experienced team
                that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity. In my case,
                the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                rotation part? Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                rather develop code?

                -- Victor Szalvay
                Danube Technologies Inc.
                http://www.danube.com

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                wrote:
                > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                Master is
                > a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in
                the
                > following ways:
                >
                > 1, SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for
                whom
                > they are SM. For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are
                also
                > on Sprint 2 as a developer.
                >
                > 2. SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                amongst
                > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                are SM.
                > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                B and
                > C develop. In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                etc.
                >
                > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                teams. Thus
                > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint. I do, however, see
                where it
                > might lead to some sticky situations.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Lori Evans
                > Scrum Master/Developer
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                >
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > cc:
                > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                scrummaster be
                > a team member?
                >
                >
                > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                the
                > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                needs. A
                > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                a few
                > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                members
                > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                >
                > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                more
                > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                you
                > can.
                >
                > Good luck!!
                >
                > Jim Schiel
                > CSM Trainer
                >
                > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                member?
                >
                > Keith,
                >
                > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
                > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                >
                > My argument against:
                > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If individuals are
                > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
                > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                >
                > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                productivity
                > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                3)
                > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                up
                > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                >
                > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
                > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
                > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                technical
                > decision making.
                >
                > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                act
                > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                and
                > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is on the team the
                > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                > same time team advocates.
                >
                > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also a team member
                > then there is no real net benefit to the team. Consider why
                > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                the
                > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
                > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                talent
                > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                >
                > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                do.
                > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                I
                > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative. I'm
                > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                >
                > -- Victor Szalvay
                > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                > http://www.danube.com
                >
                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                wrote:
                > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                > >
                > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                system
                > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                as
                > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                developer.
                > >
                > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                scrummaster be
                > > part of the working team?
                > >
                > > thanks,
                > > --
                > > Keith Sader
                > > ksader@g...
                > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >
                --------------------------------------------------
                -----------------------------
                > This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical
                > Solutions
                > USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
                > The information contained herein may include trade secrets or
                privileged
                > or
                > otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review,
                forwarding,
                > printing,
                > copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly
                prohibited
                > and may
                > be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason
                to
                > believe
                > you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this
                message
                > and
                > notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to
                > Central.SecurityOffice@s...
                >
                > Thank you
              • Lori Evans
                Thanks Victor for the input. To answer your question: ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the rotation part? I don t think any of us want to walk
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 6 9:38 AM
                  Thanks Victor for the input.  To answer your question:

                  ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                  rotation part?


                  I don't think any of us want to walk away completely from writing code and it seems like a good idea to have a number of people able to fill in as SM.  For instance, one of our SMs is about to go to Tuscany for 3 weeks (yes, I've tried to get her to take me with her to no avail) what do teams with a single SM do in their absence?  Surely SMs are allowed to take vacations/be sick, etc.?  Or, maybe they can as long as they report to work too? ;-)

                  Regards,
                  Lori



                  "Victor Szalvay" <victor@...>
                  Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                  10/06/2005 12:31 PM
                  Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                         
                          To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          cc:        
                          Subject:        [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



                  Hi Lori,

                  Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                  stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                  have to bounce between.  The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                  different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                  focused after a switch.

                  I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings.  For
                  empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                  important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                  agile team.  By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                  participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                  the team composition every sprint.  I worked with an experienced team
                  that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                  sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity.  In my case,
                  the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                  But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                  dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                  rotation part?  Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                  rather develop code?

                  -- Victor Szalvay
                  Danube Technologies Inc.

                  http://www.danube.com

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                  Master is
                  > a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up
                  in
                  the
                  > following ways:
                  >
                  > 1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team
                  for
                  whom
                  > they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they
                  are
                  also
                  > on Sprint  2 as a developer.
                  >
                  > 2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                  amongst
                  > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                  are SM.
                  > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                  B and
                  > C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                  etc.
                  >
                  > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                  teams. Thus
                  > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                  > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however,
                  see
                  where it
                  > might lead to some sticky situations.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Lori Evans
                  > Scrum Master/Developer
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                  > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                  > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                  >  
                  >         To:     scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  >         cc:
                  >         Subject:        RE:
                  [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                  scrummaster be
                  > a team member?
                  >
                  >
                  > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                  the
                  > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                  needs. A
                  > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                  a few
                  > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                  members
                  > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                  >  
                  > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                  > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                  more
                  > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                  you
                  > can.
                  >  
                  > Good luck!!
                  >  
                  > Jim Schiel
                  > CSM Trainer
                  >
                  > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                  member?
                  >
                  > Keith,
                  >
                  > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                  > advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet,
                  my
                  > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                  >
                  > My argument against:
                  > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals
                  are
                  > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive
                  (see
                  > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                  >
                  > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                  productivity
                  > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                  > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                  3)
                  > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                  > Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                  > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                  > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                  > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                  up
                  > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                  >
                  > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the
                  productivity
                  > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack
                  a
                  > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                  technical
                  > decision making.
                  >
                  > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                  act
                  > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                  > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                  > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                  and
                  > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                  > traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team
                  the
                  > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                  > same time team advocates.
                  >
                  > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                  > impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
                  > then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
                  > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                  the
                  > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable
                  in
                  > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                  talent
                  > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                  >
                  > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                  > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                  do.
                  > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                  I
                  > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
                  > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                  >
                  > -- Victor Szalvay
                  > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                  >
                  http://www.danube.com
                  >
                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                  > >
                  > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                  system
                  > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                  as
                  > > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                  developer.
                  > >
                  > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                  scrummaster be
                  > > part of the working team?
                  > >
                  > > thanks,
                  > > --
                  > > Keith Sader
                  > > ksader@g...
                  > >
                  http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                  > >
                  http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Kris Gibson
                  Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking is a detriment, but you can t have everything. I ve found in special situations it has helped in the long
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 6 9:39 AM
                    Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking
                    is a detriment, but you can't have everything. I've
                    found in special situations it has helped in the long
                    run to do dual roles.

                    I'm currently in the beginnings of implementing Scrum
                    to my project team, with 5 programmers including me.
                    Before Scrum, each programmer has been assigned a
                    software product to develop. Yes this is dangerous
                    but we had at the time 3 products needed and we had 3
                    programmers.

                    Eventually I needed to help out another developer on
                    "their" product and found it impossible to manage
                    because we both were bull-headed. I ran across Scrum
                    and took most of the principles and applied them. I
                    was essentially a SM and team member. At the same
                    time I was developing my own software product. So
                    really, I was SM, team member, and "solo" member of
                    another product.

                    Both software products were developed on time and free
                    of major bugs. Our sponsor was happy. From those
                    results, my project manager wanted me to be the
                    software lead and have Scrum implemented to everyone.

                    So now I'm in a predicament of implementing Scrum to
                    solo programmers where I am the Scrum master and also
                    a programmer. But this time, I've been able to
                    convice my boss to join two programmers together to
                    actually form a team. The game plan is after crutial
                    iterations, I'll slowly fuse teams and get away from
                    solo programmers.

                    It took some sacrifice to do dual roles but it is
                    possible to do effectively. I had no other choice;
                    just do the best with what you've got.

                    Kris

                    --- Victor Szalvay <victor@...> wrote:

                    > Keith,
                    >
                    > I work with a group that insisted on going this
                    > route against my
                    > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad
                    > idea yet, my
                    > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                    >
                    > My argument against:
                    > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If
                    > individuals are
                    > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and
                    > unproductive (see
                    > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                    >
                    > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading
                    > cause of productivity
                    > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2)
                    > the need for
                    > knowledge workers to immerse themselves
                    > uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
                    > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted
                    > too often (see
                    > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence
                    > generated in multiple
                    > empirical studies indicating that on average most
                    > workers who are
                    > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight
                    > hour day to
                    > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these
                    > lost hours add up
                    > to significant amounts of money wasted on
                    > non-productive work.
                    >
                    > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects
                    > the productivity
                    > of the other team members on the team (ripple
                    > effect) who now lack a
                    > fully productive team member providing focused
                    > direction and technical
                    > decision making.
                    >
                    > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when
                    > team members act
                    > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant
                    > communication and
                    > relationship building between the product owner and
                    > the development
                    > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the
                    > product owner and
                    > development team when conflicts or discrepancies
                    > arise, and
                    > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is
                    > on the team the
                    > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since
                    > they are at the
                    > same time team advocates.
                    >
                    > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the
                    > administrivia overhead and
                    > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also
                    > a team member
                    > then there is no real net benefit to the team.
                    > Consider why
                    > professionals often have secretaries; it would be
                    > ineffective for the
                    > professional to do administrative tasks when someone
                    > more capable in
                    > that area could handle it which would free up the
                    > pro to focus talent
                    > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                    >
                    > Practically, however, I know that often team members
                    > act as SM when
                    > there are a limited number of people available and
                    > lots of work to do.
                    > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of
                    > people's time, and I
                    > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other
                    > alternative. I'm
                    > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                    >
                    > -- Victor Szalvay
                    > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                    > http://www.danube.com
                    >
                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader
                    > <ksader@g...> wrote:
                    > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but
                    > I'll ask it again.
                    > >
                    > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1
                    > DBA, 1 Legacy system
                    > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM
                    > and is serving as
                    > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM
                    > and 85% developer.
                    > >
                    > > What other experieneces have people had with
                    > having the scrummaster be
                    > > part of the working team?
                    > >
                    > > thanks,
                    > > --
                    > > Keith Sader
                    > > ksader@g...
                    > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                    > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                    >
                    >
                    >




                    __________________________________
                    Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                    You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman s new book Behind Closed Doors.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 6 11:25 AM
                      You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman's new book  "Behind Closed Doors."
                       
                       
                      --
                      Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


                      The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown
                       
                      -------------- Original message --------------

                      > Victor,
                      >
                      > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
                      >
                      > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                      > your point. But...
                      >
                      > Think about this though:
                      >
                      > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                      > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                      > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                      > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                      > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                      > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                      > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                      > member.
                      >
                      > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                      > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                      > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.
                      >
                      > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                      > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                      > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                      > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                      > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                      > our Sprint planning.
                      >
                      > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                      > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                      > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                      > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                      > with the majority. That kind of thing.
                      >
                      > Dave Barrett,
                      > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
                      > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
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                    • Mike Dwyer
                      Guys, read Esther and Johanna s book so these questions can go to bed. David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!? Seriously Behind Closed Doors gives a very good
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 20 7:20 PM
                        Guys, read Esther and Johanna's book so these questions can go to bed.

                        David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!?

                        Seriously "Behind Closed Doors" gives a very good portrayal of this.

                        Michael F. Dwyer

                        "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
                        solution may emerge."
                        "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Barrett
                        Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:04 AM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

                        Victor,

                        I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

                        As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                        your point. But...

                        Think about this though:

                        Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                        the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                        for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                        question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                        not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                        effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                        able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                        member.

                        If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                        activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                        hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

                        We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                        anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                        realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                        than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                        back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                        our Sprint planning.

                        What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                        dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                        being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                        than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                        with the majority. That kind of thing.

                        Dave Barrett,
                        Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company




                        To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Hubert Smits
                        Hi ALfred, You d have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-) --Hubert
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 25 10:33 AM
                          Hi ALfred,


                          You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                          --Hubert


                          On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@...> wrote:

                          Hi All,

                           

                          How does one become a CSM trainer?

                           

                          Thanks

                           




                          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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                          USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
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                          copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may
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                        • Joseph Pelrine
                          ... Unfortunately, you re wrong. There are trainers who haven t qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this. Cheers -- Joseph Pelrine [ | ] MetaProg
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 25 10:54 AM
                            At 19:33 25.10.2005, you wrote:

                            Hi
                            ALfred,


                            You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                            Unfortunately, you're wrong. There are trainers who haven't qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this.

                            Cheers

                            --
                            Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                            MetaProg GmbH
                            Email: jpelrine@...
                            Web:   http://www.metaprog.com

                            You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really interesting problems.
                            - Mark Victor Hansen

                          • woynam
                            Does Ken assume the role of Mr. Wax on, Wax off Miyagi? :-) ... trainer, then ... scrumdevelopment ...
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 25 1:53 PM
                              Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                              <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi ALfred,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                              trainer, then
                              > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                              >
                              > --Hubert
                              >
                              >
                              > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi All,
                              > >
                              > > How does one become a CSM trainer?
                              > >
                              > > Thanks
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
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                              > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
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                              > > otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding,
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                            • Alfred Bailey
                              I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him.lol At least I don t have to paint the fence.. :-| Alf _____ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 26 12:36 AM

                                I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him…lol

                                 

                                At least I don’t have to paint the fence…. K

                                 

                                Alf

                                 


                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of woynam
                                Sent: 25 October 2005 21:54
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrumaster trainer

                                 


                                Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi ALfred,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                                trainer, then
                                > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                                >
                                > --Hubert
                                >
                                >
                                > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >  Hi All,
                                > >
                                > >  How does one become a CSM trainer?
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