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Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

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  • banejason
    I think it really depends on your long term goals for the team, and what kind of change curve you as the Scrum Master want to take them through. When I first
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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      I think it really depends on your long term goals for the team, and
      what kind of change curve you as the Scrum Master want to take them
      through. When I first started as a Scrum Master I was doing 50%
      development work, and 50% SM work. I realized 2 things - 1) If I
      was taking tasks then I wasn't providing the team an opportunity to
      learn how to do those tasks 2) The time I spent working on tasks
      took away from my ability to see what everyone on the team was
      doing - hence I could not see the hidden barriers, areas that needed
      improvement etc. During the next few sprints I worked closely with
      the team on some knowledge transfer for those tasks I performed in
      the past which increased our overall knowledge on the system, and I
      was able to spend more time working with the team, and getting them
      into the space where they could think more creatively about
      solutions. The team encountered many technical difficulties through
      the remainder of the project, but by instilling them with the
      necessary knowledge, and hence confidence they were able to get the
      project into production 1 full month prior to the original date
      without any defects.
      I have seen many posts on this subject, and it remains my opinion
      that the more you put into the Scrum Master role the more you and
      your organization will get out of it.


      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
      wrote:
      > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
      >
      > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
      system
      > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
      as
      > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
      developer.
      >
      > What other experieneces have people had with having the
      scrummaster be
      > part of the working team?
      >
      > thanks,
      > --
      > Keith Sader
      > ksader@g...
      > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
      > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
    • Schiel James - SHS Malvern
      Keith, I d have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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        Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
         
        So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
         
        Good luck!!
         
        Jim Schiel
        CSM Trainer


        From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

        Keith,

        I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
        advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
        feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

        My argument against:
        1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
        "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
        "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

        DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
        loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
        knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
        the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
        Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
        empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
        multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
        task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
        to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

        This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
        of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
        fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
        decision making.

        2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
        as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
        relationship building between the product owner and the development
        team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
        development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
        traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
        SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
        same time team advocates.

        3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
        impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
        then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
        professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
        professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
        that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
        more specifically on their area of expertise.

        Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
        there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
        It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
        wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
        curious to hear what others think on this subject.

        -- Victor Szalvay
        Danube Technologies, Inc.
        http://www.danube.com

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
        >
        Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
        >
        > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
        system
        > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
        as
        > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
        developer.
        >
        > What other experieneces have people had with having
        the scrummaster be
        > part of the working team?
        >
        >
        thanks,
        > --
        > Keith Sader
        > ksader@g...
        >
        href="http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader">http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
        >
        http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger


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      • Alfred Bailey
        Hi All, How does one become a CSM trainer? Thanks ... This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions USA, Inc. and are intended
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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          Hi All,

           

          How does one become a CSM trainer?

           

          Thanks

           


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        • Lori Evans
          Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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            Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:

            1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for whom they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are also on Sprint  2 as a developer.

            2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints) amongst developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they are SM.  For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons B and C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop, etc.

            We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our teams.  Thus far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however, see where it might lead to some sticky situations.

            Regards,
            Lori Evans
            Scrum Master/Developer



            Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@...>
            Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

            10/06/2005 10:28 AM
            Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                   
                    To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    cc:        
                    Subject:        RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



            Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
             
            So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
             
            Good luck!!
             
            Jim Schiel
            CSM Trainer


            From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
            Sent:
            Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
            To:
            scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject:
            [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?


            Keith,

            I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
            advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
            feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

            My argument against:
            1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
            "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
            "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

            DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
            loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
            knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
            the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
            Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
            empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
            multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
            task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
            to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

            This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
            of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
            fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
            decision making.

            2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
            as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
            relationship building between the product owner and the development
            team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
            development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
            traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
            SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
            same time team advocates.

            3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
            impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
            then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
            professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
            professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
            that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
            more specifically on their area of expertise.

            Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
            there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
            It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
            wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
            curious to hear what others think on this subject.

            -- Victor Szalvay
            Danube Technologies, Inc.

            http://www.danube.com

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
            > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
            >
            > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system
            > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
            as
            > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85% developer.
            >
            > What other experieneces have people had with having the scrummaster
            be
            > part of the working team?
            >
            > thanks,
            > --
            > Keith Sader
            > ksader@g...
            >
            http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
            >
            http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger




            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




            SPONSORED LINKS
            Scrum



            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions
            USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
            The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or
            otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing,
            copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may
            be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe
            you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and
            notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice@...

            Thank you


          • David A Barrett
            Victor, I must be in a contrary mood this week. :) As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see your point. But... Think about
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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              Victor,

              I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

              As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
              your point. But...

              Think about this though:

              Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
              the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
              for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
              question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
              not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
              effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
              able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
              member.

              If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
              activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
              hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

              We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
              anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
              realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
              than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
              back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
              our Sprint planning.

              What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
              dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
              being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
              than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
              with the majority. That kind of thing.

              Dave Barrett,
              Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
            • Victor Szalvay
              Dave, Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we re on the same page. If you had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM, right? I think
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                Dave,

                Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we're on the same page. If you
                had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM,
                right?

                I think you're right in saying that for a small single team scrum org
                with a limited budget it's impractical to have a separate dedicated
                SM/facilitator, and in fact the effectiveness lost due to task
                switching may not outweigh the burden of a new hire. But there is a
                tipping point where economically it will save the organization money
                to dedicate a scrummaster (say, as the size of the team gets to 6,7,8,
                etc. or as the number of teams increases).

                My point was that some organizations act on a false efficiency:
                spreading people across separate teams (e.g., 20%/30%/50%) or having
                people play two or more roles that are more effectively done by
                separate people. What they forget is the effectiveness lost due to
                what DeMarco calls "task switching".

                One more clarifier:
                Pete Behrens blogged on my post and made an important distinction:
                http://trailridgeconsulting.typepad.com/pete_behre
                ns_blog/2005/10/process_facilit.html

                His point about organizational patterns/"architect also implements"
                relates to cross functionality. I believe the team should do whatever
                it takes to complete committed work inside the iteration, and most
                times that is best done by overlapping roles (cross functionality) to
                increase communication bandwidth, share knowledge, etc..
                DeMarco is referring to "task splitting". But "task" for agilists has
                a specialized meaning. The way I read DeMarco's meaning is splitting
                someone's time between totally unrelated tasks, like separate projects
                or in this case sharing two distinct and independent roles.

                -- Victor Szalvay
                Danube Technologies, Inc.
                http://www.danube.com

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, David A Barrett wrote:
                > Victor,
                >
                > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
                >
                > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I
                can see
                > your point. But...
                >
                > Think about this though:
                >
                > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams
                running at
                > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full
                time job
                > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch.
                The
                > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if
                he's
                > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's
                not as
                > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he
                won't be
                > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full
                time
                > member.
                >
                > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and
                first
                > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an
                advantage.
                >
                > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to
                contribute
                > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've
                come to
                > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for
                me to do
                > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've
                scaled
                > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development
                during
                > our Sprint planning.
                >
                > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team
                Member
                > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM
                role with
                > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings
                (other
                > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last
                and vote
                > with the majority. That kind of thing.
                >
                > Dave Barrett,
                > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
              • Victor Szalvay
                Hi Lori, Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you re further stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would have to bounce
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                  Hi Lori,

                  Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                  stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                  have to bounce between. The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                  different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                  focused after a switch.

                  I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings. For
                  empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                  important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                  agile team. By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                  participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                  the team composition every sprint. I worked with an experienced team
                  that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                  sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity. In my case,
                  the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                  But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                  dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                  rotation part? Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                  rather develop code?

                  -- Victor Szalvay
                  Danube Technologies Inc.
                  http://www.danube.com

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                  Master is
                  > a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in
                  the
                  > following ways:
                  >
                  > 1, SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for
                  whom
                  > they are SM. For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are
                  also
                  > on Sprint 2 as a developer.
                  >
                  > 2. SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                  amongst
                  > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                  are SM.
                  > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                  B and
                  > C develop. In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                  etc.
                  >
                  > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                  teams. Thus
                  > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                  > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint. I do, however, see
                  where it
                  > might lead to some sticky situations.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Lori Evans
                  > Scrum Master/Developer
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                  > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                  > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                  >
                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > cc:
                  > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                  scrummaster be
                  > a team member?
                  >
                  >
                  > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                  the
                  > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                  needs. A
                  > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                  a few
                  > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                  members
                  > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                  >
                  > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                  > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                  more
                  > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                  you
                  > can.
                  >
                  > Good luck!!
                  >
                  > Jim Schiel
                  > CSM Trainer
                  >
                  > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                  member?
                  >
                  > Keith,
                  >
                  > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                  > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
                  > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                  >
                  > My argument against:
                  > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If individuals are
                  > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
                  > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                  >
                  > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                  productivity
                  > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                  > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                  3)
                  > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                  > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                  > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                  > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                  > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                  up
                  > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                  >
                  > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
                  > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
                  > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                  technical
                  > decision making.
                  >
                  > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                  act
                  > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                  > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                  > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                  and
                  > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                  > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is on the team the
                  > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                  > same time team advocates.
                  >
                  > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                  > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also a team member
                  > then there is no real net benefit to the team. Consider why
                  > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                  the
                  > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
                  > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                  talent
                  > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                  >
                  > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                  > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                  do.
                  > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                  I
                  > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative. I'm
                  > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                  >
                  > -- Victor Szalvay
                  > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                  > http://www.danube.com
                  >
                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                  > >
                  > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                  system
                  > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                  as
                  > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                  developer.
                  > >
                  > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                  scrummaster be
                  > > part of the working team?
                  > >
                  > > thanks,
                  > > --
                  > > Keith Sader
                  > > ksader@g...
                  > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                  > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > Scrum
                  >
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                • Lori Evans
                  Thanks Victor for the input. To answer your question: ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the rotation part? I don t think any of us want to walk
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                    Thanks Victor for the input.  To answer your question:

                    ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                    rotation part?


                    I don't think any of us want to walk away completely from writing code and it seems like a good idea to have a number of people able to fill in as SM.  For instance, one of our SMs is about to go to Tuscany for 3 weeks (yes, I've tried to get her to take me with her to no avail) what do teams with a single SM do in their absence?  Surely SMs are allowed to take vacations/be sick, etc.?  Or, maybe they can as long as they report to work too? ;-)

                    Regards,
                    Lori



                    "Victor Szalvay" <victor@...>
                    Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                    10/06/2005 12:31 PM
                    Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                           
                            To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            cc:        
                            Subject:        [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



                    Hi Lori,

                    Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                    stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                    have to bounce between.  The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                    different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                    focused after a switch.

                    I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings.  For
                    empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                    important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                    agile team.  By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                    participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                    the team composition every sprint.  I worked with an experienced team
                    that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                    sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity.  In my case,
                    the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                    But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                    dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                    rotation part?  Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                    rather develop code?

                    -- Victor Szalvay
                    Danube Technologies Inc.

                    http://www.danube.com

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                    Master is
                    > a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up
                    in
                    the
                    > following ways:
                    >
                    > 1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team
                    for
                    whom
                    > they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they
                    are
                    also
                    > on Sprint  2 as a developer.
                    >
                    > 2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                    amongst
                    > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                    are SM.
                    > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                    B and
                    > C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                    etc.
                    >
                    > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                    teams. Thus
                    > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                    > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however,
                    see
                    where it
                    > might lead to some sticky situations.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Lori Evans
                    > Scrum Master/Developer
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                    > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                    > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                    >  
                    >         To:     scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    >         cc:
                    >         Subject:        RE:
                    [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                    scrummaster be
                    > a team member?
                    >
                    >
                    > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                    the
                    > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                    needs. A
                    > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                    a few
                    > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                    members
                    > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                    >  
                    > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                    > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                    more
                    > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                    you
                    > can.
                    >  
                    > Good luck!!
                    >  
                    > Jim Schiel
                    > CSM Trainer
                    >
                    > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                    member?
                    >
                    > Keith,
                    >
                    > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                    > advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet,
                    my
                    > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                    >
                    > My argument against:
                    > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals
                    are
                    > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive
                    (see
                    > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                    >
                    > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                    productivity
                    > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                    > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                    3)
                    > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                    > Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                    > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                    > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                    > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                    up
                    > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                    >
                    > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the
                    productivity
                    > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack
                    a
                    > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                    technical
                    > decision making.
                    >
                    > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                    act
                    > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                    > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                    > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                    and
                    > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                    > traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team
                    the
                    > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                    > same time team advocates.
                    >
                    > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                    > impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
                    > then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
                    > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                    the
                    > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable
                    in
                    > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                    talent
                    > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                    >
                    > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                    > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                    do.
                    > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                    I
                    > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
                    > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                    >
                    > -- Victor Szalvay
                    > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                    >
                    http://www.danube.com
                    >
                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                    wrote:
                    > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                    > >
                    > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                    system
                    > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                    as
                    > > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                    developer.
                    > >
                    > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                    scrummaster be
                    > > part of the working team?
                    > >
                    > > thanks,
                    > > --
                    > > Keith Sader
                    > > ksader@g...
                    > >
                    http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                    > >
                    http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
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                    > or
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                  • Kris Gibson
                    Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking is a detriment, but you can t have everything. I ve found in special situations it has helped in the long
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking
                      is a detriment, but you can't have everything. I've
                      found in special situations it has helped in the long
                      run to do dual roles.

                      I'm currently in the beginnings of implementing Scrum
                      to my project team, with 5 programmers including me.
                      Before Scrum, each programmer has been assigned a
                      software product to develop. Yes this is dangerous
                      but we had at the time 3 products needed and we had 3
                      programmers.

                      Eventually I needed to help out another developer on
                      "their" product and found it impossible to manage
                      because we both were bull-headed. I ran across Scrum
                      and took most of the principles and applied them. I
                      was essentially a SM and team member. At the same
                      time I was developing my own software product. So
                      really, I was SM, team member, and "solo" member of
                      another product.

                      Both software products were developed on time and free
                      of major bugs. Our sponsor was happy. From those
                      results, my project manager wanted me to be the
                      software lead and have Scrum implemented to everyone.

                      So now I'm in a predicament of implementing Scrum to
                      solo programmers where I am the Scrum master and also
                      a programmer. But this time, I've been able to
                      convice my boss to join two programmers together to
                      actually form a team. The game plan is after crutial
                      iterations, I'll slowly fuse teams and get away from
                      solo programmers.

                      It took some sacrifice to do dual roles but it is
                      possible to do effectively. I had no other choice;
                      just do the best with what you've got.

                      Kris

                      --- Victor Szalvay <victor@...> wrote:

                      > Keith,
                      >
                      > I work with a group that insisted on going this
                      > route against my
                      > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad
                      > idea yet, my
                      > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                      >
                      > My argument against:
                      > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If
                      > individuals are
                      > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and
                      > unproductive (see
                      > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                      >
                      > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading
                      > cause of productivity
                      > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2)
                      > the need for
                      > knowledge workers to immerse themselves
                      > uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
                      > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted
                      > too often (see
                      > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence
                      > generated in multiple
                      > empirical studies indicating that on average most
                      > workers who are
                      > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight
                      > hour day to
                      > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these
                      > lost hours add up
                      > to significant amounts of money wasted on
                      > non-productive work.
                      >
                      > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects
                      > the productivity
                      > of the other team members on the team (ripple
                      > effect) who now lack a
                      > fully productive team member providing focused
                      > direction and technical
                      > decision making.
                      >
                      > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when
                      > team members act
                      > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant
                      > communication and
                      > relationship building between the product owner and
                      > the development
                      > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the
                      > product owner and
                      > development team when conflicts or discrepancies
                      > arise, and
                      > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is
                      > on the team the
                      > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since
                      > they are at the
                      > same time team advocates.
                      >
                      > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the
                      > administrivia overhead and
                      > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also
                      > a team member
                      > then there is no real net benefit to the team.
                      > Consider why
                      > professionals often have secretaries; it would be
                      > ineffective for the
                      > professional to do administrative tasks when someone
                      > more capable in
                      > that area could handle it which would free up the
                      > pro to focus talent
                      > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                      >
                      > Practically, however, I know that often team members
                      > act as SM when
                      > there are a limited number of people available and
                      > lots of work to do.
                      > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of
                      > people's time, and I
                      > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other
                      > alternative. I'm
                      > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                      >
                      > -- Victor Szalvay
                      > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                      > http://www.danube.com
                      >
                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader
                      > <ksader@g...> wrote:
                      > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but
                      > I'll ask it again.
                      > >
                      > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1
                      > DBA, 1 Legacy system
                      > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM
                      > and is serving as
                      > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM
                      > and 85% developer.
                      > >
                      > > What other experieneces have people had with
                      > having the scrummaster be
                      > > part of the working team?
                      > >
                      > > thanks,
                      > > --
                      > > Keith Sader
                      > > ksader@g...
                      > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                      > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                      >
                      >
                      >




                      __________________________________
                      Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                    • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                      You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman s new book Behind Closed Doors.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman's new book  "Behind Closed Doors."
                         
                         
                        --
                        Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


                        The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown
                         
                        -------------- Original message --------------

                        > Victor,
                        >
                        > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
                        >
                        > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                        > your point. But...
                        >
                        > Think about this though:
                        >
                        > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                        > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                        > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                        > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                        > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                        > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                        > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                        > member.
                        >
                        > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                        > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                        > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.
                        >
                        > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                        > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                        > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                        > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                        > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                        > our Sprint planning.
                        >
                        > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                        > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                        > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                        > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                        > with the majority. That kind of thing.
                        >
                        > Dave Barrett,
                        > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
                        > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
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                      • Mike Dwyer
                        Guys, read Esther and Johanna s book so these questions can go to bed. David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!? Seriously Behind Closed Doors gives a very good
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 20, 2005
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                          Guys, read Esther and Johanna's book so these questions can go to bed.

                          David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!?

                          Seriously "Behind Closed Doors" gives a very good portrayal of this.

                          Michael F. Dwyer

                          "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
                          solution may emerge."
                          "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Barrett
                          Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:04 AM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

                          Victor,

                          I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

                          As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                          your point. But...

                          Think about this though:

                          Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                          the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                          for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                          question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                          not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                          effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                          able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                          member.

                          If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                          activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                          hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

                          We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                          anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                          realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                          than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                          back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                          our Sprint planning.

                          What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                          dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                          being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                          than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                          with the majority. That kind of thing.

                          Dave Barrett,
                          Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company




                          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Hubert Smits
                          Hi ALfred, You d have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-) --Hubert
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                            Hi ALfred,


                            You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                            --Hubert


                            On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@...> wrote:

                            Hi All,

                             

                            How does one become a CSM trainer?

                             

                            Thanks

                             




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                          • Joseph Pelrine
                            ... Unfortunately, you re wrong. There are trainers who haven t qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this. Cheers -- Joseph Pelrine [ | ] MetaProg
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                              At 19:33 25.10.2005, you wrote:

                              Hi
                              ALfred,


                              You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                              Unfortunately, you're wrong. There are trainers who haven't qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this.

                              Cheers

                              --
                              Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                              MetaProg GmbH
                              Email: jpelrine@...
                              Web:   http://www.metaprog.com

                              You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really interesting problems.
                              - Mark Victor Hansen

                            • woynam
                              Does Ken assume the role of Mr. Wax on, Wax off Miyagi? :-) ... trainer, then ... scrumdevelopment ...
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi ALfred,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                                trainer, then
                                > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                                >
                                > --Hubert
                                >
                                >
                                > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi All,
                                > >
                                > > How does one become a CSM trainer?
                                > >
                                > > Thanks
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
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                              • Alfred Bailey
                                I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him.lol At least I don t have to paint the fence.. :-| Alf _____ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 26, 2005
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                                  I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him…lol

                                   

                                  At least I don’t have to paint the fence…. K

                                   

                                  Alf

                                   


                                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of woynam
                                  Sent: 25 October 2005 21:54
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrumaster trainer

                                   


                                  Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                  <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi ALfred,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                                  trainer, then
                                  > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                                  >
                                  > --Hubert
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >  Hi All,
                                  > >
                                  > >  How does one become a CSM trainer?
                                  > >
                                  > >  Thanks
                                  > >
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