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Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

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  • Victor Szalvay
    Keith, I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my advise. Although they aren t convinced it s a bad idea yet, my feeling is that they
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
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      Keith,

      I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
      advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
      feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

      My argument against:
      1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If individuals are
      "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
      "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

      DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
      loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
      knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
      the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
      Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
      empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
      multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
      task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
      to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

      This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
      of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
      fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
      decision making.

      2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
      as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
      relationship building between the product owner and the development
      team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
      development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
      traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is on the team the
      SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
      same time team advocates.

      3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
      impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also a team member
      then there is no real net benefit to the team. Consider why
      professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
      professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
      that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
      more specifically on their area of expertise.

      Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
      there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
      It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
      wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative. I'm
      curious to hear what others think on this subject.

      -- Victor Szalvay
      Danube Technologies, Inc.
      http://www.danube.com

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
      > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
      >
      > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system
      > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving as
      > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85% developer.
      >
      > What other experieneces have people had with having the scrummaster be
      > part of the working team?
      >
      > thanks,
      > --
      > Keith Sader
      > ksader@g...
      > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
      > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
    • banejason
      I think it really depends on your long term goals for the team, and what kind of change curve you as the Scrum Master want to take them through. When I first
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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        I think it really depends on your long term goals for the team, and
        what kind of change curve you as the Scrum Master want to take them
        through. When I first started as a Scrum Master I was doing 50%
        development work, and 50% SM work. I realized 2 things - 1) If I
        was taking tasks then I wasn't providing the team an opportunity to
        learn how to do those tasks 2) The time I spent working on tasks
        took away from my ability to see what everyone on the team was
        doing - hence I could not see the hidden barriers, areas that needed
        improvement etc. During the next few sprints I worked closely with
        the team on some knowledge transfer for those tasks I performed in
        the past which increased our overall knowledge on the system, and I
        was able to spend more time working with the team, and getting them
        into the space where they could think more creatively about
        solutions. The team encountered many technical difficulties through
        the remainder of the project, but by instilling them with the
        necessary knowledge, and hence confidence they were able to get the
        project into production 1 full month prior to the original date
        without any defects.
        I have seen many posts on this subject, and it remains my opinion
        that the more you put into the Scrum Master role the more you and
        your organization will get out of it.


        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
        wrote:
        > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
        >
        > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
        system
        > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
        as
        > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
        developer.
        >
        > What other experieneces have people had with having the
        scrummaster be
        > part of the working team?
        >
        > thanks,
        > --
        > Keith Sader
        > ksader@g...
        > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
        > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
      • Schiel James - SHS Malvern
        Keith, I d have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
           
          So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
           
          Good luck!!
           
          Jim Schiel
          CSM Trainer


          From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

          Keith,

          I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
          advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
          feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

          My argument against:
          1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
          "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
          "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

          DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
          loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
          knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
          the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
          Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
          empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
          multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
          task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
          to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

          This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
          of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
          fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
          decision making.

          2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
          as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
          relationship building between the product owner and the development
          team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
          development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
          traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
          SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
          same time team advocates.

          3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
          impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
          then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
          professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
          professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
          that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
          more specifically on their area of expertise.

          Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
          there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
          It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
          wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
          curious to hear what others think on this subject.

          -- Victor Szalvay
          Danube Technologies, Inc.
          http://www.danube.com

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
          >
          Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
          >
          > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
          system
          > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
          as
          > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
          developer.
          >
          > What other experieneces have people had with having
          the scrummaster be
          > part of the working team?
          >
          >
          thanks,
          > --
          > Keith Sader
          > ksader@g...
          >
          href="http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader">http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
          >
          http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger


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        • Alfred Bailey
          Hi All, How does one become a CSM trainer? Thanks ... This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions USA, Inc. and are intended
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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            Hi All,

             

            How does one become a CSM trainer?

             

            Thanks

             


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          • Lori Evans
            Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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              Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:

              1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for whom they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are also on Sprint  2 as a developer.

              2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints) amongst developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they are SM.  For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons B and C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop, etc.

              We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our teams.  Thus far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however, see where it might lead to some sticky situations.

              Regards,
              Lori Evans
              Scrum Master/Developer



              Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@...>
              Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

              10/06/2005 10:28 AM
              Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                     
                      To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      cc:        
                      Subject:        RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



              Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
               
              So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
               
              Good luck!!
               
              Jim Schiel
              CSM Trainer


              From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
              Sent:
              Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
              To:
              scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject:
              [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?


              Keith,

              I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
              advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
              feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

              My argument against:
              1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
              "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
              "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

              DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
              loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
              knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
              the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
              Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
              empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
              multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
              task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
              to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

              This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
              of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
              fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
              decision making.

              2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
              as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
              relationship building between the product owner and the development
              team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
              development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
              traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
              SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
              same time team advocates.

              3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
              impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
              then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
              professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
              professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
              that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
              more specifically on their area of expertise.

              Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
              there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
              It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
              wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
              curious to hear what others think on this subject.

              -- Victor Szalvay
              Danube Technologies, Inc.

              http://www.danube.com

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
              > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
              >
              > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system
              > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
              as
              > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85% developer.
              >
              > What other experieneces have people had with having the scrummaster
              be
              > part of the working team?
              >
              > thanks,
              > --
              > Keith Sader
              > ksader@g...
              >
              http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
              >
              http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger




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              -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions
              USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
              The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or
              otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing,
              copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may
              be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe
              you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and
              notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice@...

              Thank you


            • David A Barrett
              Victor, I must be in a contrary mood this week. :) As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see your point. But... Think about
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                Victor,

                I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

                As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                your point. But...

                Think about this though:

                Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                member.

                If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

                We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                our Sprint planning.

                What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                with the majority. That kind of thing.

                Dave Barrett,
                Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
              • Victor Szalvay
                Dave, Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we re on the same page. If you had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM, right? I think
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                  Dave,

                  Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we're on the same page. If you
                  had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM,
                  right?

                  I think you're right in saying that for a small single team scrum org
                  with a limited budget it's impractical to have a separate dedicated
                  SM/facilitator, and in fact the effectiveness lost due to task
                  switching may not outweigh the burden of a new hire. But there is a
                  tipping point where economically it will save the organization money
                  to dedicate a scrummaster (say, as the size of the team gets to 6,7,8,
                  etc. or as the number of teams increases).

                  My point was that some organizations act on a false efficiency:
                  spreading people across separate teams (e.g., 20%/30%/50%) or having
                  people play two or more roles that are more effectively done by
                  separate people. What they forget is the effectiveness lost due to
                  what DeMarco calls "task switching".

                  One more clarifier:
                  Pete Behrens blogged on my post and made an important distinction:
                  http://trailridgeconsulting.typepad.com/pete_behre
                  ns_blog/2005/10/process_facilit.html

                  His point about organizational patterns/"architect also implements"
                  relates to cross functionality. I believe the team should do whatever
                  it takes to complete committed work inside the iteration, and most
                  times that is best done by overlapping roles (cross functionality) to
                  increase communication bandwidth, share knowledge, etc..
                  DeMarco is referring to "task splitting". But "task" for agilists has
                  a specialized meaning. The way I read DeMarco's meaning is splitting
                  someone's time between totally unrelated tasks, like separate projects
                  or in this case sharing two distinct and independent roles.

                  -- Victor Szalvay
                  Danube Technologies, Inc.
                  http://www.danube.com

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, David A Barrett wrote:
                  > Victor,
                  >
                  > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
                  >
                  > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I
                  can see
                  > your point. But...
                  >
                  > Think about this though:
                  >
                  > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams
                  running at
                  > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full
                  time job
                  > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch.
                  The
                  > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if
                  he's
                  > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's
                  not as
                  > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he
                  won't be
                  > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full
                  time
                  > member.
                  >
                  > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                  > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and
                  first
                  > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an
                  advantage.
                  >
                  > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to
                  contribute
                  > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've
                  come to
                  > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for
                  me to do
                  > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've
                  scaled
                  > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development
                  during
                  > our Sprint planning.
                  >
                  > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team
                  Member
                  > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM
                  role with
                  > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings
                  (other
                  > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last
                  and vote
                  > with the majority. That kind of thing.
                  >
                  > Dave Barrett,
                  > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                • Victor Szalvay
                  Hi Lori, Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you re further stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would have to bounce
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                    Hi Lori,

                    Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                    stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                    have to bounce between. The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                    different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                    focused after a switch.

                    I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings. For
                    empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                    important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                    agile team. By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                    participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                    the team composition every sprint. I worked with an experienced team
                    that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                    sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity. In my case,
                    the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                    But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                    dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                    rotation part? Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                    rather develop code?

                    -- Victor Szalvay
                    Danube Technologies Inc.
                    http://www.danube.com

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                    Master is
                    > a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in
                    the
                    > following ways:
                    >
                    > 1, SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for
                    whom
                    > they are SM. For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are
                    also
                    > on Sprint 2 as a developer.
                    >
                    > 2. SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                    amongst
                    > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                    are SM.
                    > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                    B and
                    > C develop. In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                    etc.
                    >
                    > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                    teams. Thus
                    > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                    > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint. I do, however, see
                    where it
                    > might lead to some sticky situations.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Lori Evans
                    > Scrum Master/Developer
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                    > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                    > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                    >
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > cc:
                    > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                    scrummaster be
                    > a team member?
                    >
                    >
                    > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                    the
                    > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                    needs. A
                    > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                    a few
                    > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                    members
                    > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                    >
                    > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                    > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                    more
                    > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                    you
                    > can.
                    >
                    > Good luck!!
                    >
                    > Jim Schiel
                    > CSM Trainer
                    >
                    > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                    member?
                    >
                    > Keith,
                    >
                    > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                    > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
                    > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                    >
                    > My argument against:
                    > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If individuals are
                    > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
                    > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                    >
                    > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                    productivity
                    > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                    > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                    3)
                    > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                    > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                    > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                    > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                    > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                    up
                    > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                    >
                    > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
                    > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
                    > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                    technical
                    > decision making.
                    >
                    > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                    act
                    > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                    > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                    > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                    and
                    > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                    > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is on the team the
                    > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                    > same time team advocates.
                    >
                    > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                    > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also a team member
                    > then there is no real net benefit to the team. Consider why
                    > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                    the
                    > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
                    > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                    talent
                    > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                    >
                    > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                    > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                    do.
                    > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                    I
                    > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative. I'm
                    > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                    >
                    > -- Victor Szalvay
                    > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                    > http://www.danube.com
                    >
                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                    wrote:
                    > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                    > >
                    > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                    system
                    > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                    as
                    > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                    developer.
                    > >
                    > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                    scrummaster be
                    > > part of the working team?
                    > >
                    > > thanks,
                    > > --
                    > > Keith Sader
                    > > ksader@g...
                    > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                    > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                    >
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                    >
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                    > Thank you
                  • Lori Evans
                    Thanks Victor for the input. To answer your question: ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the rotation part? I don t think any of us want to walk
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Victor for the input.  To answer your question:

                      ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                      rotation part?


                      I don't think any of us want to walk away completely from writing code and it seems like a good idea to have a number of people able to fill in as SM.  For instance, one of our SMs is about to go to Tuscany for 3 weeks (yes, I've tried to get her to take me with her to no avail) what do teams with a single SM do in their absence?  Surely SMs are allowed to take vacations/be sick, etc.?  Or, maybe they can as long as they report to work too? ;-)

                      Regards,
                      Lori



                      "Victor Szalvay" <victor@...>
                      Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                      10/06/2005 12:31 PM
                      Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                             
                              To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              cc:        
                              Subject:        [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



                      Hi Lori,

                      Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                      stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                      have to bounce between.  The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                      different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                      focused after a switch.

                      I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings.  For
                      empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                      important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                      agile team.  By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                      participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                      the team composition every sprint.  I worked with an experienced team
                      that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                      sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity.  In my case,
                      the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                      But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                      dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                      rotation part?  Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                      rather develop code?

                      -- Victor Szalvay
                      Danube Technologies Inc.

                      http://www.danube.com

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                      Master is
                      > a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up
                      in
                      the
                      > following ways:
                      >
                      > 1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team
                      for
                      whom
                      > they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they
                      are
                      also
                      > on Sprint  2 as a developer.
                      >
                      > 2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                      amongst
                      > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                      are SM.
                      > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                      B and
                      > C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                      etc.
                      >
                      > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                      teams. Thus
                      > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                      > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however,
                      see
                      where it
                      > might lead to some sticky situations.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Lori Evans
                      > Scrum Master/Developer
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                      > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                      > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                      >  
                      >         To:     scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      >         cc:
                      >         Subject:        RE:
                      [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                      scrummaster be
                      > a team member?
                      >
                      >
                      > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                      the
                      > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                      needs. A
                      > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                      a few
                      > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                      members
                      > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                      >  
                      > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                      > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                      more
                      > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                      you
                      > can.
                      >  
                      > Good luck!!
                      >  
                      > Jim Schiel
                      > CSM Trainer
                      >
                      > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                      member?
                      >
                      > Keith,
                      >
                      > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                      > advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet,
                      my
                      > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                      >
                      > My argument against:
                      > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals
                      are
                      > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive
                      (see
                      > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                      >
                      > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                      productivity
                      > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                      > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                      3)
                      > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                      > Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                      > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                      > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                      > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                      up
                      > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                      >
                      > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the
                      productivity
                      > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack
                      a
                      > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                      technical
                      > decision making.
                      >
                      > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                      act
                      > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                      > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                      > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                      and
                      > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                      > traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team
                      the
                      > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                      > same time team advocates.
                      >
                      > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                      > impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
                      > then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
                      > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                      the
                      > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable
                      in
                      > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                      talent
                      > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                      >
                      > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                      > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                      do.
                      > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                      I
                      > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
                      > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                      >
                      > -- Victor Szalvay
                      > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                      >
                      http://www.danube.com
                      >
                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                      wrote:
                      > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                      > >
                      > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                      system
                      > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                      as
                      > > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                      developer.
                      > >
                      > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                      scrummaster be
                      > > part of the working team?
                      > >
                      > > thanks,
                      > > --
                      > > Keith Sader
                      > > ksader@g...
                      > >
                      http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                      > >
                      http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@e...
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SPONSORED LINKS
                      > Scrum
                      >
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      >  Visit your group "scrumdevelopment" on the web.
                      >  
                      >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      >  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >  
                      >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      --------------------------------------------------
                      -----------------------------
                      > This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical
                      > Solutions
                      > USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
                      > The information contained herein may include trade secrets or
                      privileged
                      > or
                      > otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review,
                      forwarding,
                      > printing,
                      > copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly
                      prohibited
                      > and may
                      > be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason
                      to
                      > believe
                      > you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this
                      message
                      > and
                      > notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to
                      > Central.SecurityOffice@s...
                      >
                      > Thank you




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                    • Kris Gibson
                      Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking is a detriment, but you can t have everything. I ve found in special situations it has helped in the long
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking
                        is a detriment, but you can't have everything. I've
                        found in special situations it has helped in the long
                        run to do dual roles.

                        I'm currently in the beginnings of implementing Scrum
                        to my project team, with 5 programmers including me.
                        Before Scrum, each programmer has been assigned a
                        software product to develop. Yes this is dangerous
                        but we had at the time 3 products needed and we had 3
                        programmers.

                        Eventually I needed to help out another developer on
                        "their" product and found it impossible to manage
                        because we both were bull-headed. I ran across Scrum
                        and took most of the principles and applied them. I
                        was essentially a SM and team member. At the same
                        time I was developing my own software product. So
                        really, I was SM, team member, and "solo" member of
                        another product.

                        Both software products were developed on time and free
                        of major bugs. Our sponsor was happy. From those
                        results, my project manager wanted me to be the
                        software lead and have Scrum implemented to everyone.

                        So now I'm in a predicament of implementing Scrum to
                        solo programmers where I am the Scrum master and also
                        a programmer. But this time, I've been able to
                        convice my boss to join two programmers together to
                        actually form a team. The game plan is after crutial
                        iterations, I'll slowly fuse teams and get away from
                        solo programmers.

                        It took some sacrifice to do dual roles but it is
                        possible to do effectively. I had no other choice;
                        just do the best with what you've got.

                        Kris

                        --- Victor Szalvay <victor@...> wrote:

                        > Keith,
                        >
                        > I work with a group that insisted on going this
                        > route against my
                        > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad
                        > idea yet, my
                        > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                        >
                        > My argument against:
                        > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If
                        > individuals are
                        > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and
                        > unproductive (see
                        > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                        >
                        > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading
                        > cause of productivity
                        > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2)
                        > the need for
                        > knowledge workers to immerse themselves
                        > uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
                        > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted
                        > too often (see
                        > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence
                        > generated in multiple
                        > empirical studies indicating that on average most
                        > workers who are
                        > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight
                        > hour day to
                        > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these
                        > lost hours add up
                        > to significant amounts of money wasted on
                        > non-productive work.
                        >
                        > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects
                        > the productivity
                        > of the other team members on the team (ripple
                        > effect) who now lack a
                        > fully productive team member providing focused
                        > direction and technical
                        > decision making.
                        >
                        > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when
                        > team members act
                        > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant
                        > communication and
                        > relationship building between the product owner and
                        > the development
                        > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the
                        > product owner and
                        > development team when conflicts or discrepancies
                        > arise, and
                        > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is
                        > on the team the
                        > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since
                        > they are at the
                        > same time team advocates.
                        >
                        > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the
                        > administrivia overhead and
                        > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also
                        > a team member
                        > then there is no real net benefit to the team.
                        > Consider why
                        > professionals often have secretaries; it would be
                        > ineffective for the
                        > professional to do administrative tasks when someone
                        > more capable in
                        > that area could handle it which would free up the
                        > pro to focus talent
                        > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                        >
                        > Practically, however, I know that often team members
                        > act as SM when
                        > there are a limited number of people available and
                        > lots of work to do.
                        > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of
                        > people's time, and I
                        > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other
                        > alternative. I'm
                        > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                        >
                        > -- Victor Szalvay
                        > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                        > http://www.danube.com
                        >
                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader
                        > <ksader@g...> wrote:
                        > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but
                        > I'll ask it again.
                        > >
                        > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1
                        > DBA, 1 Legacy system
                        > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM
                        > and is serving as
                        > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM
                        > and 85% developer.
                        > >
                        > > What other experieneces have people had with
                        > having the scrummaster be
                        > > part of the working team?
                        > >
                        > > thanks,
                        > > --
                        > > Keith Sader
                        > > ksader@g...
                        > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                        > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                        >
                        >
                        >




                        __________________________________
                        Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                        http://mail.yahoo.com
                      • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                        You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman s new book Behind Closed Doors.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman's new book  "Behind Closed Doors."
                           
                           
                          --
                          Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


                          The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown
                           
                          -------------- Original message --------------

                          > Victor,
                          >
                          > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
                          >
                          > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                          > your point. But...
                          >
                          > Think about this though:
                          >
                          > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                          > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                          > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                          > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                          > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                          > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                          > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                          > member.
                          >
                          > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                          > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                          > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.
                          >
                          > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                          > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                          > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                          > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                          > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                          > our Sprint planning.
                          >
                          > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                          > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                          > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                          > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                          > with the majority. That kind of thing.
                          >
                          > Dave Barrett,
                          > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Mike Dwyer
                          Guys, read Esther and Johanna s book so these questions can go to bed. David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!? Seriously Behind Closed Doors gives a very good
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 20, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Guys, read Esther and Johanna's book so these questions can go to bed.

                            David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!?

                            Seriously "Behind Closed Doors" gives a very good portrayal of this.

                            Michael F. Dwyer

                            "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
                            solution may emerge."
                            "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Barrett
                            Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:04 AM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

                            Victor,

                            I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

                            As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                            your point. But...

                            Think about this though:

                            Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                            the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                            for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                            question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                            not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                            effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                            able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                            member.

                            If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                            activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                            hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

                            We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                            anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                            realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                            than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                            back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                            our Sprint planning.

                            What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                            dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                            being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                            than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                            with the majority. That kind of thing.

                            Dave Barrett,
                            Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company




                            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Hubert Smits
                            Hi ALfred, You d have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-) --Hubert
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi ALfred,


                              You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                              --Hubert


                              On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@...> wrote:

                              Hi All,

                               

                              How does one become a CSM trainer?

                               

                              Thanks

                               




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                            • Joseph Pelrine
                              ... Unfortunately, you re wrong. There are trainers who haven t qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this. Cheers -- Joseph Pelrine [ | ] MetaProg
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                At 19:33 25.10.2005, you wrote:

                                Hi
                                ALfred,


                                You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                                Unfortunately, you're wrong. There are trainers who haven't qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this.

                                Cheers

                                --
                                Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                                MetaProg GmbH
                                Email: jpelrine@...
                                Web:   http://www.metaprog.com

                                You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really interesting problems.
                                - Mark Victor Hansen

                              • woynam
                                Does Ken assume the role of Mr. Wax on, Wax off Miyagi? :-) ... trainer, then ... scrumdevelopment ...
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                  Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                  <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi ALfred,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                                  trainer, then
                                  > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                                  >
                                  > --Hubert
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi All,
                                  > >
                                  > > How does one become a CSM trainer?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------
                                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > - Visit your group
                                  "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
                                  > > on the web.
                                  > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > >
                                  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                                  > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                                  > >
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                                • Alfred Bailey
                                  I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him.lol At least I don t have to paint the fence.. :-| Alf _____ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 26, 2005
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                                    I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him…lol

                                     

                                    At least I don’t have to paint the fence…. K

                                     

                                    Alf

                                     


                                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of woynam
                                    Sent: 25 October 2005 21:54
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrumaster trainer

                                     


                                    Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                    <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi ALfred,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                                    trainer, then
                                    > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                                    >
                                    > --Hubert
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >  Hi All,
                                    > >
                                    > >  How does one become a CSM trainer?
                                    > >
                                    > >  Thanks
                                    > >
                                    > >  ------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >  To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >  ------------------------------
                                    > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >    - Visit your group
                                    "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
                                    > >    on the web.
                                    > >     - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > >  
                                    scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                    > >     - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                    > >    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >  ------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                    > > be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to
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                                    > > you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this
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                                    > > ___________________________________________________________________
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