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Can the scrummaster be a team member?

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  • Keith Sader
    Maybe this question has been asked before, but I ll ask it again. We ve got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system guy) and one of those
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
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      Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.

      We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system
      guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving as
      the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85% developer.

      What other experieneces have people had with having the scrummaster be
      part of the working team?

      thanks,
      --
      Keith Sader
      ksader@...
      http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
      http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
    • Victor Szalvay
      Keith, I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my advise. Although they aren t convinced it s a bad idea yet, my feeling is that they
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
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        Keith,

        I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
        advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
        feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

        My argument against:
        1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If individuals are
        "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
        "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

        DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
        loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
        knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
        the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
        Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
        empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
        multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
        task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
        to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

        This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
        of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
        fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
        decision making.

        2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
        as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
        relationship building between the product owner and the development
        team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
        development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
        traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is on the team the
        SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
        same time team advocates.

        3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
        impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also a team member
        then there is no real net benefit to the team. Consider why
        professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
        professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
        that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
        more specifically on their area of expertise.

        Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
        there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
        It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
        wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative. I'm
        curious to hear what others think on this subject.

        -- Victor Szalvay
        Danube Technologies, Inc.
        http://www.danube.com

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
        > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
        >
        > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system
        > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving as
        > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85% developer.
        >
        > What other experieneces have people had with having the scrummaster be
        > part of the working team?
        >
        > thanks,
        > --
        > Keith Sader
        > ksader@g...
        > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
        > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
      • banejason
        I think it really depends on your long term goals for the team, and what kind of change curve you as the Scrum Master want to take them through. When I first
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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          I think it really depends on your long term goals for the team, and
          what kind of change curve you as the Scrum Master want to take them
          through. When I first started as a Scrum Master I was doing 50%
          development work, and 50% SM work. I realized 2 things - 1) If I
          was taking tasks then I wasn't providing the team an opportunity to
          learn how to do those tasks 2) The time I spent working on tasks
          took away from my ability to see what everyone on the team was
          doing - hence I could not see the hidden barriers, areas that needed
          improvement etc. During the next few sprints I worked closely with
          the team on some knowledge transfer for those tasks I performed in
          the past which increased our overall knowledge on the system, and I
          was able to spend more time working with the team, and getting them
          into the space where they could think more creatively about
          solutions. The team encountered many technical difficulties through
          the remainder of the project, but by instilling them with the
          necessary knowledge, and hence confidence they were able to get the
          project into production 1 full month prior to the original date
          without any defects.
          I have seen many posts on this subject, and it remains my opinion
          that the more you put into the Scrum Master role the more you and
          your organization will get out of it.


          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
          wrote:
          > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
          >
          > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
          system
          > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
          as
          > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
          developer.
          >
          > What other experieneces have people had with having the
          scrummaster be
          > part of the working team?
          >
          > thanks,
          > --
          > Keith Sader
          > ksader@g...
          > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
          > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
        • Schiel James - SHS Malvern
          Keith, I d have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
             
            So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
             
            Good luck!!
             
            Jim Schiel
            CSM Trainer


            From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

            Keith,

            I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
            advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
            feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

            My argument against:
            1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
            "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
            "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

            DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
            loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
            knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
            the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
            Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
            empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
            multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
            task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
            to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

            This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
            of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
            fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
            decision making.

            2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
            as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
            relationship building between the product owner and the development
            team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
            development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
            traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
            SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
            same time team advocates.

            3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
            impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
            then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
            professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
            professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
            that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
            more specifically on their area of expertise.

            Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
            there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
            It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
            wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
            curious to hear what others think on this subject.

            -- Victor Szalvay
            Danube Technologies, Inc.
            http://www.danube.com

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
            >
            Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
            >
            > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
            system
            > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
            as
            > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
            developer.
            >
            > What other experieneces have people had with having
            the scrummaster be
            > part of the working team?
            >
            >
            thanks,
            > --
            > Keith Sader
            > ksader@g...
            >
            href="http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader">http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
            >
            http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger


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          • Alfred Bailey
            Hi All, How does one become a CSM trainer? Thanks ... This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions USA, Inc. and are intended
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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              Hi All,

               

              How does one become a CSM trainer?

               

              Thanks

               


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            • Lori Evans
              Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum Master is a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up in the following ways:

                1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for whom they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are also on Sprint  2 as a developer.

                2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints) amongst developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they are SM.  For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons B and C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop, etc.

                We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our teams.  Thus far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however, see where it might lead to some sticky situations.

                Regards,
                Lori Evans
                Scrum Master/Developer



                Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@...>
                Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                       
                        To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        cc:        
                        Subject:        RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



                Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At the same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your needs. A Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for a few Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team members being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                 
                So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or more teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that you can.
                 
                Good luck!!
                 
                Jim Schiel
                CSM Trainer


                From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
                Sent:
                Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                To:
                scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject:
                [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?


                Keith,

                I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
                feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.

                My argument against:
                1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals are
                "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
                "Slack" by Tom Demarco).

                DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of productivity
                loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
                the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add up
                to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.

                This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
                of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
                fully productive team member providing focused direction and technical
                decision making.

                2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members act
                as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                relationship building between the product owner and the development
                team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner and
                development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team the
                SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                same time team advocates.

                3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
                then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
                professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for the
                professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
                that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus talent
                more specifically on their area of expertise.

                Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to do.
                It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and I
                wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
                curious to hear what others think on this subject.

                -- Victor Szalvay
                Danube Technologies, Inc.

                http://www.danube.com

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...> wrote:
                > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                >
                > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy system
                > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                as
                > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85% developer.
                >
                > What other experieneces have people had with having the scrummaster
                be
                > part of the working team?
                >
                > thanks,
                > --
                > Keith Sader
                > ksader@g...
                >
                http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                >
                http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger




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                This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions
                USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
                The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or
                otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing,
                copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may
                be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe
                you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and
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              • David A Barrett
                Victor, I must be in a contrary mood this week. :) As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see your point. But... Think about
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                  Victor,

                  I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

                  As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                  your point. But...

                  Think about this though:

                  Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                  the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                  for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                  question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                  not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                  effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                  able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                  member.

                  If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                  activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                  hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

                  We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                  anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                  realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                  than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                  back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                  our Sprint planning.

                  What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                  dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                  being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                  than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                  with the majority. That kind of thing.

                  Dave Barrett,
                  Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                • Victor Szalvay
                  Dave, Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we re on the same page. If you had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM, right? I think
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                    Dave,

                    Contrary is more fun. :) But I think we're on the same page. If you
                    had 5 teams of 7-9 devs, you would probably request a dedicated SM,
                    right?

                    I think you're right in saying that for a small single team scrum org
                    with a limited budget it's impractical to have a separate dedicated
                    SM/facilitator, and in fact the effectiveness lost due to task
                    switching may not outweigh the burden of a new hire. But there is a
                    tipping point where economically it will save the organization money
                    to dedicate a scrummaster (say, as the size of the team gets to 6,7,8,
                    etc. or as the number of teams increases).

                    My point was that some organizations act on a false efficiency:
                    spreading people across separate teams (e.g., 20%/30%/50%) or having
                    people play two or more roles that are more effectively done by
                    separate people. What they forget is the effectiveness lost due to
                    what DeMarco calls "task switching".

                    One more clarifier:
                    Pete Behrens blogged on my post and made an important distinction:
                    http://trailridgeconsulting.typepad.com/pete_behre
                    ns_blog/2005/10/process_facilit.html

                    His point about organizational patterns/"architect also implements"
                    relates to cross functionality. I believe the team should do whatever
                    it takes to complete committed work inside the iteration, and most
                    times that is best done by overlapping roles (cross functionality) to
                    increase communication bandwidth, share knowledge, etc..
                    DeMarco is referring to "task splitting". But "task" for agilists has
                    a specialized meaning. The way I read DeMarco's meaning is splitting
                    someone's time between totally unrelated tasks, like separate projects
                    or in this case sharing two distinct and independent roles.

                    -- Victor Szalvay
                    Danube Technologies, Inc.
                    http://www.danube.com

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, David A Barrett wrote:
                    > Victor,
                    >
                    > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
                    >
                    > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I
                    can see
                    > your point. But...
                    >
                    > Think about this though:
                    >
                    > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams
                    running at
                    > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full
                    time job
                    > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch.
                    The
                    > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if
                    he's
                    > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's
                    not as
                    > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he
                    won't be
                    > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full
                    time
                    > member.
                    >
                    > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                    > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and
                    first
                    > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an
                    advantage.
                    >
                    > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to
                    contribute
                    > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've
                    come to
                    > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for
                    me to do
                    > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've
                    scaled
                    > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development
                    during
                    > our Sprint planning.
                    >
                    > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team
                    Member
                    > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM
                    role with
                    > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings
                    (other
                    > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last
                    and vote
                    > with the majority. That kind of thing.
                    >
                    > Dave Barrett,
                    > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                  • Victor Szalvay
                    Hi Lori, Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you re further stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would have to bounce
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
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                      Hi Lori,

                      Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                      stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                      have to bounce between. The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                      different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                      focused after a switch.

                      I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings. For
                      empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                      important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                      agile team. By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                      participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                      the team composition every sprint. I worked with an experienced team
                      that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                      sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity. In my case,
                      the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                      But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                      dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                      rotation part? Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                      rather develop code?

                      -- Victor Szalvay
                      Danube Technologies Inc.
                      http://www.danube.com

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                      Master is
                      > a developer too). What are your thoughts on mixing things up in
                      the
                      > following ways:
                      >
                      > 1, SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team for
                      whom
                      > they are SM. For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they are
                      also
                      > on Sprint 2 as a developer.
                      >
                      > 2. SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                      amongst
                      > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                      are SM.
                      > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                      B and
                      > C develop. In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                      etc.
                      >
                      > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                      teams. Thus
                      > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                      > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint. I do, however, see
                      where it
                      > might lead to some sticky situations.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Lori Evans
                      > Scrum Master/Developer
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                      > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                      > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                      >
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > cc:
                      > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                      scrummaster be
                      > a team member?
                      >
                      >
                      > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                      the
                      > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                      needs. A
                      > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                      a few
                      > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                      members
                      > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                      >
                      > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                      > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                      more
                      > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                      you
                      > can.
                      >
                      > Good luck!!
                      >
                      > Jim Schiel
                      > CSM Trainer
                      >
                      > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                      member?
                      >
                      > Keith,
                      >
                      > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                      > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet, my
                      > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                      >
                      > My argument against:
                      > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If individuals are
                      > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive (see
                      > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                      >
                      > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                      productivity
                      > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                      > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                      3)
                      > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                      > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                      > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                      > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                      > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                      up
                      > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                      >
                      > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the productivity
                      > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack a
                      > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                      technical
                      > decision making.
                      >
                      > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                      act
                      > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                      > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                      > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                      and
                      > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                      > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is on the team the
                      > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                      > same time team advocates.
                      >
                      > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                      > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also a team member
                      > then there is no real net benefit to the team. Consider why
                      > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                      the
                      > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable in
                      > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                      talent
                      > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                      >
                      > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                      > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                      do.
                      > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                      I
                      > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative. I'm
                      > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                      >
                      > -- Victor Szalvay
                      > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                      > http://www.danube.com
                      >
                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                      wrote:
                      > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                      > >
                      > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                      system
                      > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                      as
                      > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                      developer.
                      > >
                      > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                      scrummaster be
                      > > part of the working team?
                      > >
                      > > thanks,
                      > > --
                      > > Keith Sader
                      > > ksader@g...
                      > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                      > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      > Scrum
                      >
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                      >
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                      > Thank you
                    • Lori Evans
                      Thanks Victor for the input. To answer your question: ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the rotation part? I don t think any of us want to walk
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Victor for the input.  To answer your question:

                        ...why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                        rotation part?


                        I don't think any of us want to walk away completely from writing code and it seems like a good idea to have a number of people able to fill in as SM.  For instance, one of our SMs is about to go to Tuscany for 3 weeks (yes, I've tried to get her to take me with her to no avail) what do teams with a single SM do in their absence?  Surely SMs are allowed to take vacations/be sick, etc.?  Or, maybe they can as long as they report to work too? ;-)

                        Regards,
                        Lori



                        "Victor Szalvay" <victor@...>
                        Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                        10/06/2005 12:31 PM
                        Please respond to scrumdevelopment

                               
                                To:        scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                cc:        
                                Subject:        [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?



                        Hi Lori,

                        Your alternative 1) is not attractive because you're further
                        stretching the diversity of the tasks/roles that SM/team member would
                        have to bounce between.  The more diverse the tasks (different people,
                        different work, different problem space), the longer it takes to get
                        focused after a switch.

                        I've tried alternative 2) before and have mixed feelings.  For
                        empirical forecasting or anything based on team velocity, it is
                        important that the team composition be as stable as possible on an
                        agile team.  By rotating a role like SM, a role that does not
                        participate in building product toward sprint goals, we are changing
                        the team composition every sprint.  I worked with an experienced team
                        that was able to pull this off well because they had a keen intuitive
                        sense for how the rotation would affect their velocity.  In my case,
                        the rotating SM still doubled as a team member.

                        But my question to you is that if in alternative 2 you are willing to
                        dedicate a rotating SM, why not dedicate a permanent SM and forget the
                        rotation part?  Perhaps no one wants to be a dedicated SM and would
                        rather develop code?

                        -- Victor Szalvay
                        Danube Technologies Inc.

                        http://www.danube.com

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Lori Evans <evans025@m...>
                        wrote:
                        > Hmmm, we are currently operating in the discouraged mode (Scrum
                        Master is
                        > a developer too).  What are your thoughts on mixing things up
                        in
                        the
                        > following ways:
                        >
                        > 1,  SM is a developer, but not an active developer on the team
                        for
                        whom
                        > they are SM.   For example, for Sprint 1 person A is SM and they
                        are
                        also
                        > on Sprint  2 as a developer.
                        >
                        > 2.  SM duties are rotated monthly (the length of our Sprints)
                        amongst
                        > developers such that the SM is not an active developer while they
                        are SM.
                        > For example, person A is SM for June on all 3 Sprints while persons
                        B and
                        > C develop.  In July, person B is SM and persons A and C develop,
                        etc.
                        >
                        > We are just getting going with using the formal SM role on our
                        teams. Thus
                        > far, we haven't encountered problems with mixing SM and developer
                        > responsibilities on the same team and Sprint.  I do, however,
                        see
                        where it
                        > might lead to some sticky situations.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Lori Evans
                        > Scrum Master/Developer
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Schiel James - SHS Malvern <james.schiel@s...>
                        > Sent by: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > 10/06/2005 10:28 AM
                        > Please respond to scrumdevelopment
                        >  
                        >         To:     scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        >         cc:
                        >         Subject:        RE:
                        [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the
                        scrummaster be
                        > a team member?
                        >
                        >
                        > Keith, I'd have to agree with what my colleagues have said here. At
                        the
                        > same time, I think you have to examine your organization and your
                        needs. A
                        > Scrum Master who can be dedicated to being a Scrum Master, even for
                        a few
                        > Scrum teams simultaneously, is much more productive than team
                        members
                        > being Scrum Masters at the same time.
                        >  
                        > So, for you, I'd suggest looking at your organization and it's
                        > capabilities. If you can create a dedicated Scrum Master for one or
                        more
                        > teams, you should do it. If not, you have to make the best call that
                        you
                        > can.
                        >  
                        > Good luck!!
                        >  
                        > Jim Schiel
                        > CSM Trainer
                        >
                        > From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@d...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:19 PM
                        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team
                        member?
                        >
                        > Keith,
                        >
                        > I work with a group that insisted on going this route against my
                        > advise.  Although they aren't convinced it's a bad idea yet,
                        my
                        > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                        >
                        > My argument against:
                        > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible.  If individuals
                        are
                        > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and unproductive
                        (see
                        > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                        >
                        > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading cause of
                        productivity
                        > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2) the need for
                        > knowledge workers to immerse themselves uninterrupted in tasks, and
                        3)
                        > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted too often (see
                        > Slack, pg. 16-21).  DeMarco refers to evidence generated in multiple
                        > empirical studies indicating that on average most workers who are
                        > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight hour day to
                        > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these lost hours add
                        up
                        > to significant amounts of money wasted on non-productive work.
                        >
                        > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects the
                        productivity
                        > of the other team members on the team (ripple effect) who now lack
                        a
                        > fully productive team member providing focused direction and
                        technical
                        > decision making.
                        >
                        > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when team members
                        act
                        > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant communication and
                        > relationship building between the product owner and the development
                        > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the product owner
                        and
                        > development team when conflicts or discrepancies arise, and
                        > traditionally this is the SM.  However, if the SM is on the team
                        the
                        > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since they are at the
                        > same time team advocates.
                        >
                        > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the administrivia overhead and
                        > impediments that affect the team.  If the SM is also a team member
                        > then there is no real net benefit to the team.  Consider why
                        > professionals often have secretaries; it would be ineffective for
                        the
                        > professional to do administrative tasks when someone more capable
                        in
                        > that area could handle it which would free up the pro to focus
                        talent
                        > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                        >
                        > Practically, however, I know that often team members act as SM when
                        > there are a limited number of people available and lots of work to
                        do.
                        > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of people's time, and
                        I
                        > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other alternative.  I'm
                        > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                        >
                        > -- Victor Szalvay
                        > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                        >
                        http://www.danube.com
                        >
                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader <ksader@g...>
                        wrote:
                        > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but I'll ask it again.
                        > >
                        > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1 DBA, 1 Legacy
                        system
                        > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM and is serving
                        as
                        > > the scrummaster.  I'd say my role is about 15% SM and 85%
                        developer.
                        > >
                        > > What other experieneces have people had with having the
                        scrummaster be
                        > > part of the working team?
                        > >
                        > > thanks,
                        > > --
                        > > Keith Sader
                        > > ksader@g...
                        > >
                        http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                        > >
                        http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@e...
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SPONSORED LINKS
                        > Scrum
                        >
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        >  Visit your group "scrumdevelopment" on the web.
                        >  
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                        >  
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                        >
                        >
                        --------------------------------------------------
                        -----------------------------
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                        > Solutions
                        > USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
                        > The information contained herein may include trade secrets or
                        privileged
                        > or
                        > otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review,
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                        > and may
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                        > you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this
                        message
                        > and
                        > notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to
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                        >
                        > Thank you




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                      • Kris Gibson
                        Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking is a detriment, but you can t have everything. I ve found in special situations it has helped in the long
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Interesting points. I would agree that multitasking
                          is a detriment, but you can't have everything. I've
                          found in special situations it has helped in the long
                          run to do dual roles.

                          I'm currently in the beginnings of implementing Scrum
                          to my project team, with 5 programmers including me.
                          Before Scrum, each programmer has been assigned a
                          software product to develop. Yes this is dangerous
                          but we had at the time 3 products needed and we had 3
                          programmers.

                          Eventually I needed to help out another developer on
                          "their" product and found it impossible to manage
                          because we both were bull-headed. I ran across Scrum
                          and took most of the principles and applied them. I
                          was essentially a SM and team member. At the same
                          time I was developing my own software product. So
                          really, I was SM, team member, and "solo" member of
                          another product.

                          Both software products were developed on time and free
                          of major bugs. Our sponsor was happy. From those
                          results, my project manager wanted me to be the
                          software lead and have Scrum implemented to everyone.

                          So now I'm in a predicament of implementing Scrum to
                          solo programmers where I am the Scrum master and also
                          a programmer. But this time, I've been able to
                          convice my boss to join two programmers together to
                          actually form a team. The game plan is after crutial
                          iterations, I'll slowly fuse teams and get away from
                          solo programmers.

                          It took some sacrifice to do dual roles but it is
                          possible to do effectively. I had no other choice;
                          just do the best with what you've got.

                          Kris

                          --- Victor Szalvay <victor@...> wrote:

                          > Keith,
                          >
                          > I work with a group that insisted on going this
                          > route against my
                          > advise. Although they aren't convinced it's a bad
                          > idea yet, my
                          > feeling is that they are on a dangerous path.
                          >
                          > My argument against:
                          > 1) Knowledge workers aren't really fungible. If
                          > individuals are
                          > "split" between tasks they become ineffective and
                          > unproductive (see
                          > "Slack" by Tom Demarco).
                          >
                          > DeMarco argues that task switching is a leading
                          > cause of productivity
                          > loss due to 1) the mechanics of switching tasks, 2)
                          > the need for
                          > knowledge workers to immerse themselves
                          > uninterrupted in tasks, and 3)
                          > the frustration that accompanies being interrupted
                          > too often (see
                          > Slack, pg. 16-21). DeMarco refers to evidence
                          > generated in multiple
                          > empirical studies indicating that on average most
                          > workers who are
                          > multitasking lose at least one hour in every eight
                          > hour day to
                          > task-switching. Over the period of a project, these
                          > lost hours add up
                          > to significant amounts of money wasted on
                          > non-productive work.
                          >
                          > This "task-switching" problem also directly affects
                          > the productivity
                          > of the other team members on the team (ripple
                          > effect) who now lack a
                          > fully productive team member providing focused
                          > direction and technical
                          > decision making.
                          >
                          > 2) There is also a logical conflict of interest when
                          > team members act
                          > as SM simultaneously. Scrum requires constant
                          > communication and
                          > relationship building between the product owner and
                          > the development
                          > team. Someone needs to act as a mediator between the
                          > product owner and
                          > development team when conflicts or discrepancies
                          > arise, and
                          > traditionally this is the SM. However, if the SM is
                          > on the team the
                          > SM cannot be impartial arbiters of conflicts since
                          > they are at the
                          > same time team advocates.
                          >
                          > 3) A major SM role is to take care of the
                          > administrivia overhead and
                          > impediments that affect the team. If the SM is also
                          > a team member
                          > then there is no real net benefit to the team.
                          > Consider why
                          > professionals often have secretaries; it would be
                          > ineffective for the
                          > professional to do administrative tasks when someone
                          > more capable in
                          > that area could handle it which would free up the
                          > pro to focus talent
                          > more specifically on their area of expertise.
                          >
                          > Practically, however, I know that often team members
                          > act as SM when
                          > there are a limited number of people available and
                          > lots of work to do.
                          > It's not a disaster but it is inefficient use of
                          > people's time, and I
                          > wouldn't encourage it if there was some other
                          > alternative. I'm
                          > curious to hear what others think on this subject.
                          >
                          > -- Victor Szalvay
                          > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                          > http://www.danube.com
                          >
                          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Keith Sader
                          > <ksader@g...> wrote:
                          > > Maybe this question has been asked before, but
                          > I'll ask it again.
                          > >
                          > > We've got a small shop, (2.25 developers, 1 QA, 1
                          > DBA, 1 Legacy system
                          > > guy) and one of those developers (me) took the CSM
                          > and is serving as
                          > > the scrummaster. I'd say my role is about 15% SM
                          > and 85% developer.
                          > >
                          > > What other experieneces have people had with
                          > having the scrummaster be
                          > > part of the working team?
                          > >
                          > > thanks,
                          > > --
                          > > Keith Sader
                          > > ksader@g...
                          > > http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
                          > > http://www.jroller.com/page/certifieddanger
                          >
                          >
                          >




                          __________________________________
                          Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                          http://mail.yahoo.com
                        • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                          You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman s new book Behind Closed Doors.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You all might profit from reading Esther Derby and Johanna Rothaman's new book  "Behind Closed Doors."
                             
                             
                            --
                            Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


                            The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown
                             
                            -------------- Original message --------------

                            > Victor,
                            >
                            > I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)
                            >
                            > As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                            > your point. But...
                            >
                            > Think about this though:
                            >
                            > Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                            > the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                            > for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                            > question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                            > not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                            > effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                            > able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                            > member.
                            >
                            > If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                            > activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                            > hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.
                            >
                            > We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                            > anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                            > realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                            > than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                            > back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                            > our Sprint planning.
                            >
                            > What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                            > dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                            > being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                            > than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                            > with the majority. That kind of thing.
                            >
                            > Dave Barrett,
                            > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Mike Dwyer
                            Guys, read Esther and Johanna s book so these questions can go to bed. David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!? Seriously Behind Closed Doors gives a very good
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 20, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Guys, read Esther and Johanna's book so these questions can go to bed.

                              David, You in a contrary mood?!?!?!?

                              Seriously "Behind Closed Doors" gives a very good portrayal of this.

                              Michael F. Dwyer

                              "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
                              solution may emerge."
                              "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Barrett
                              Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:04 AM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Can the scrummaster be a team member?

                              Victor,

                              I must be in a contrary mood this week. :)

                              As someone who lives the Team Member/Scrum Master role every day, I can see
                              your point. But...

                              Think about this though:

                              Unless the organization is large enough to have several teams running at
                              the same time, there's really no way that SM is going to be a full time job
                              for anyone. That means that the SM is going to have to task switch. The
                              question is then - what's he doing when he's not SMing? Clearly, if he's
                              not on the team, then the project isn't going to suffer because he's not as
                              effecient at his other tasks. If he's on the team, however, he won't be
                              able to function as efficiently on the team as he would as a full time
                              member.

                              If the SM is a team member, however, he is plugged into the Sprint
                              activities 100% of the time, and will probably have a better (and first
                              hand) knowledge of the what's going on. This is probably an advantage.

                              We discarded some time ago any thought that I would be able to contribute
                              anything close to 1 full team member. As a matter of fact, we've come to
                              realize that SM activities are a whole lot more important than for me to do
                              than development tasks as a team member. For this reason, we've scaled
                              back how much of my time we schedule as available for development during
                              our Sprint planning.

                              What is much, much harder for me to manage in the Scrum Master/Team Member
                              dual role is balancing the Team Leader/Manager aspects of the SM role with
                              being a Team Member. For instance, my biggest job in team meetings (other
                              than Scrums) is to shut up. I don't vote, or if I do, I vote last and vote
                              with the majority. That kind of thing.

                              Dave Barrett,
                              Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company




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                            • Hubert Smits
                              Hi ALfred, You d have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-) --Hubert
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                Hi ALfred,


                                You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                                --Hubert


                                On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@...> wrote:

                                Hi All,

                                 

                                How does one become a CSM trainer?

                                 

                                Thanks

                                 




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                              • Joseph Pelrine
                                ... Unfortunately, you re wrong. There are trainers who haven t qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this. Cheers -- Joseph Pelrine [ | ] MetaProg
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                  At 19:33 25.10.2005, you wrote:

                                  Hi
                                  ALfred,


                                  You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a trainer, then co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)

                                  Unfortunately, you're wrong. There are trainers who haven't qualified as practitioners. Only Ken can explain this.

                                  Cheers

                                  --
                                  Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                                  MetaProg GmbH
                                  Email: jpelrine@...
                                  Web:   http://www.metaprog.com

                                  You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really interesting problems.
                                  - Mark Victor Hansen

                                • woynam
                                  Does Ken assume the role of Mr. Wax on, Wax off Miyagi? :-) ... trainer, then ... scrumdevelopment ...
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                    Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                    <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi ALfred,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                                    trainer, then
                                    > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                                    >
                                    > --Hubert
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi All,
                                    > >
                                    > > How does one become a CSM trainer?
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
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                                  • Alfred Bailey
                                    I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him.lol At least I don t have to paint the fence.. :-| Alf _____ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 26, 2005
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                                      I have met Ken, he does have a Mr Miyagi bout him…lol

                                       

                                      At least I don’t have to paint the fence…. K

                                       

                                      Alf

                                       


                                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of woynam
                                      Sent: 25 October 2005 21:54
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrumaster trainer

                                       


                                      Does Ken assume the role of Mr. "Wax on, Wax off" Miyagi? :-)

                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                      <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi ALfred,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > You'd have to be a CSM practitioner, then ask Ken to become a
                                      trainer, then
                                      > co-teach with him. And wash his car 3 times :-)
                                      >
                                      > --Hubert
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On 10/6/05, Alfred Bailey <alfred.bailey@m...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >  Hi All,
                                      > >
                                      > >  How does one become a CSM trainer?
                                      > >
                                      > >  Thanks
                                      > >
                                      > >  ------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >  To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                                      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                      > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
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