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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum in a fixed-cost environment

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  • Ken Schwaber
    I gave a talk on this at the last OOPSLA. You have to approach a fixed price, fixed date contract the same, whether agile or clunky processes are being used;
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 25, 2002
      I gave a talk on this at the last OOPSLA. You have to approach a fixed
      price, fixed date contract the same, whether agile or clunky processes are
      being used; that is, you need to understand the architecture, domain, and
      artifacts that will be involved to create a scope, scale, and costing
      estimate. Even the requirements have to be extracted. However, then it all
      changes. We prepare a list of the requirements in a product backlog and
      prioritize them to deliver the maximum business functionality. And we talk
      to the customer about value, and how the prioritization and iterative,
      incremental delivery may give them an opportunity to call for more releases.
      Also, we talk about emergence, and let the customer know that they can trade
      off backlog items or reprioritize them at each review. We even let them know
      that they can manage the entire product backlog as long as it stays within
      the fixed price, fixed date. We get into collaboration. And, we give them
      the option of cancelling after any thirty day increment. Part of the
      presentation from oopsla follows:

      Develop vision, value statement with prospect.
      Create product backlog of functional and non-functional requirements.
      Prioritize product backlog and review with customer in light of vision and
      value statements.
      Create enough architecture and design to develop product backlog estimates;
      more accuracy on functionality that maximizes value.
      Discuss with customer how value will be delivered incrementally and that
      they are free to change product backlog content and priority . as long as
      estimates stay the same.
      Submit bid based on product backlog.

      Ken

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Neil Padgen [mailto:neil.padgen@...]
      Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 10:42 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum in a fixed-cost environment


      Our small development team has recently implemented Scrum with great
      success. (Thanks Mike and Ken!)

      Just gave a presentation to our project managers. They generally
      seemed to like what they saw, but their biggest stumbling block is
      that we work in a fixed-cost environment here, where an amount of
      funding is bid for at the start of a project.

      With Scrum, it seems that if a project is going to take more time than
      originally budgeted for, then another Sprint might be added, or a
      piece of functionality might be dropped. That doesn't fit too well
      with our fixed-cost approach.

      Has anyone here successfully implemented Scrum in such an environment?
      Are there any words of wisdom I can present at our next meeting?

      For now I've invited all the project managers to attend the daily
      Scrums in chicken mode, hopefully that will start to persuade them
      that Scrum works!

      Any and all advice appreciated,

      -- Neil

      --



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    • Neil Padgen
      Thanks for your replies Hubert and Ken. What tends to happen here is that user requirements and technical requirements documents are written before any project
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 27, 2002
        Thanks for your replies Hubert and Ken.

        What tends to happen here is that user requirements and technical
        requirements documents are written before any project starts. I'll
        propose that those documents are prioritised so that a meaningful
        Product Backlog can be built, and together with the experience we've
        gained in our three Sprints so far we should be able to give
        reasonable estimates for time and cost.

        With your help here, and with sections 6.3 and 6.9 of the book, I
        should be able to get the project managers to see the light!

        Cheers

        -- Neil

        --



        BBCi at http://www.bbc.co.uk/

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      • Hubert Smits
        Neil, Why isn t the writing of these specs done in a sprint? That would give the participants in the sprint (specially those who have to estimate the fixed
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 27, 2002
          Neil,

          Why isn't the writing of these specs done in a sprint? That would give the
          participants in the sprint (specially those who have to estimate the fixed
          price part) a much better steer on the results they require.

          --Hubert

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Neil Padgen
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 27/11/02 11:39
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum in a fixed-cost environment

          Thanks for your replies Hubert and Ken.

          What tends to happen here is that user requirements and technical
          requirements documents are written before any project starts. I'll
          propose that those documents are prioritised so that a meaningful
          Product Backlog can be built, and together with the experience we've
          gained in our three Sprints so far we should be able to give
          reasonable estimates for time and cost.

          With your help here, and with sections 6.3 and 6.9 of the book, I
          should be able to get the project managers to see the light!

          Cheers

          -- Neil

          --



          BBCi at http://www.bbc.co.uk/

          This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
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        • Ken Schwaber
          I worked with an organization that just couldn t get the business analysis group into the Scrum thing, even though I pointed out the number of defects,
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 27, 2002
            I worked with an organization that just couldn't get the "business analysis"
            group into the Scrum thing, even though I pointed out the number of defects,
            limited communication, etc. that was caused by analyzing, writing, reading
            the analysis and trying to figure it out, then designing, coding and
            testing. We used the specs as detailed product backlog, and eventually the
            business analysts joined in, since we needed them to interpret their
            writings anyway.
            Ken

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Hubert Smits [mailto:hsmits@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:50 PM
            To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com '
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum in a fixed-cost environment


            Neil,

            Why isn't the writing of these specs done in a sprint? That would give the
            participants in the sprint (specially those who have to estimate the fixed
            price part) a much better steer on the results they require.

            --Hubert

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Neil Padgen
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 27/11/02 11:39
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum in a fixed-cost environment

            Thanks for your replies Hubert and Ken.

            What tends to happen here is that user requirements and technical
            requirements documents are written before any project starts. I'll
            propose that those documents are prioritised so that a meaningful
            Product Backlog can be built, and together with the experience we've
            gained in our three Sprints so far we should be able to give
            reasonable estimates for time and cost.

            With your help here, and with sections 6.3 and 6.9 of the book, I
            should be able to get the project managers to see the light!

            Cheers

            -- Neil

            --



            BBCi at http://www.bbc.co.uk/

            This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
            personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically
            stated.
            If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do
            not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
            reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the
            BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will
            signify your consent to this.


            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



            ****************************************************************************
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            you are not the recipient
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            to anyone. In such
            case, you should destroy this message and notify us immediately. If you or
            your employer do not
            consent to internet email messages of this kind, please advise us
            immediately.

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          • Neil Padgen
            ... Don t think that will work here. Our setup here is that funding is only granted for a project once the specs have all been written and signed off. As a
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 28, 2002
              On Wednesday 27 November 2002 7:49 pm, Hubert Smits wrote:
              > Neil,
              >
              > Why isn't the writing of these specs done in a sprint? That would
              > give the participants in the sprint (specially those who have to
              > estimate the fixed price part) a much better steer on the results
              > they require.

              Don't think that will work here. Our setup here is that funding is
              only granted for a project once the specs have all been written and
              signed off. As a team we don't write the specs, but we're trying to
              get more involvement in their preparation than we currently have.

              Ken's suggestion of using the specs as detailed product backlog is the
              most likely to apply here. The project managers raised the point
              that if time or money runs out then something has to give. If we can
              get them to put priorities into the specs, then everyone will be
              aware at the start of the project what will be implemented and what
              might not be. And of course the backlog can be reprioritised at the
              Sprint Review and Sprint Planning meetings.

              -- Neil


              BBCi at http://www.bbc.co.uk/

              This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
              personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically
              stated.
              If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do
              not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
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            • David J. Anderson
              I thought this list might be interested in the new community website for Feature Driven Development which Jeff De Luca has recently started.
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 4, 2002
                I thought this list might be interested in the new
                community website for Feature Driven Development which
                Jeff De Luca has recently started.

                http://www.featuredrivendevelopment.com/

                I'd like to see more written comparing FDD and Scrum -
                there are lots of similarities (and differences too)



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