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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and CMM

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  • Ken Schwaber
    Integrated Software Management and Training Program ... From: Aureliano Calvo [mailto:acalvo@datatransfer.com.ar] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:13 PM To:
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 7, 2002
      Integrated Software Management and Training Program

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Aureliano Calvo [mailto:acalvo@...]
      Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:13 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and CMM


      What KPA are missing if we use scrum correctly to achieve level 3 CMM
      (besides subcontractor management)?

      >I was at Carnegie Mellon University and the Software Engineering
      >Institute last week.
      >I gave a presentation on Scrum and requirements traceability to a
      >graduate architecture class. It turns out that they have the same
      >waterfall approach we had in software development, with the same
      >problems of managing changes and resisting "scope creep."
      >I worked with Mark Paulk at SEI and assessed Scrum as level 2
      >compliant to CMM, except for subcontractor management, which Scrum
      >doesn't address. Scrum is also mostly level 3 compliant. The
      >main "aha" for Mark was software quality engineering, where he saw
      >that the daily scrums and sprint review addressed this. I'll be
      >writing more about this over the next several weeks.
      >
      >Ken
      >
      >
      >
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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Ken: How does scrum meet the following KPAs? Level 2: Software Configuration Management Software Quality Assurance Level 3: Peer Reviews Software Product
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 8, 2002
        On Thursday, November 7, 2002, at 7:27:56 PM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

        > Integrated Software Management and Training Program

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Aureliano Calvo [mailto:acalvo@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:13 PM
        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and CMM


        > What KPA are missing if we use scrum correctly to achieve level 3 CMM
        > (besides subcontractor management)?

        Ken: How does scrum meet the following KPAs?

        Level 2: Software Configuration Management
        Software Quality Assurance
        Level 3: Peer Reviews
        Software Product Engineering
        Organization Process Focus

        Of course a team doing scrum might meet those KPAs, but I'm not aware
        of how Scrum itself addresses them.

        Thanks,

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Inigo Montoya: You are wonderful!
        Man in Black: Thank you. I have worked hard to become so.
      • Mircea Nedelcu
        Hi, The company in which I work is investigating Scrum for adoption. They are committed to a CMM/I based process improvement model and they intend to use the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 7, 2007
          Hi,

          The company in which I work is investigating Scrum for adoption.
          They are committed to a CMM/I based process improvement model and they intend to use the two together.

          What do you think, are there any chances to follow the key practices from CMM (level 2 and 3) and still adopt Scrum principles?

          My opinion is that the two approaches are incompatible, yet there are some opinions from experienced Scrum practitioners that they can be used:
          http://jeffsutherland.com/scrum/2006/11/scrum-supports-cmmi-level-5.html

          Some incompatibilities that I can think of are related to:
          - institutionalization supposed by CMM which is contrary to Scrum self managed teams
          - the software quality assurance activities (internal audits) that are covered by SQA key process area of CMM
          - the role and responsibility of project manager that are described in project planning key process area of CMM versus Scrum Master role
          - need for documented, reviewed and baselined procedures and plans, e.g. project management plan versus the product backlog proposed by Scrum
          - need of the Change Control Board for change management in CMM versus much simpler approach in Scrum (stories are committed to a Sprint)
          - traceability of various artifacts (requirements, test cases) which is advocated by CMM as opposed to a lightweight, sync if needed approach

          Regards,
          Mircea




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        • Thierry Cros
          Hi Mircea CMMI: Yet Another (Huge) User Story to be included in the backlog Regards, Thierry ...
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 7, 2007
            Hi Mircea

            CMMI: Yet Another (Huge) User Story
            to be included in the backlog


            Regards,
            Thierry

            --- Mircea Nedelcu <mirceaned@...> a écrit :

            > Hi,
            >
            > The company in which I work is investigating Scrum
            > for adoption.
            > They are committed to a CMM/I based process
            > improvement model and they intend to use the two
            > together.
            >
            > What do you think, are there any chances to follow
            > the key practices from CMM (level 2 and 3) and still
            > adopt Scrum principles?
            >
            > My opinion is that the two approaches are
            > incompatible, yet there are some opinions from
            > experienced Scrum practitioners that they can be
            > used:
            >
            http://jeffsutherland.com/scrum/2006/11/scrum-supports-cmmi-level-5.html
            >
            > Some incompatibilities that I can think of are
            > related to:
            > - institutionalization supposed by CMM which is
            > contrary to Scrum self managed teams
            > - the software quality assurance activities
            > (internal audits) that are covered by SQA key
            > process area of CMM
            > - the role and responsibility of project manager
            > that are described in project planning key process
            > area of CMM versus Scrum Master role
            > - need for documented, reviewed and baselined
            > procedures and plans, e.g. project management plan
            > versus the product backlog proposed by Scrum
            > - need of the Change Control Board for change
            > management in CMM versus much simpler approach in
            > Scrum (stories are committed to a Sprint)
            > - traceability of various artifacts (requirements,
            > test cases) which is advocated by CMM as opposed to
            > a lightweight, sync if needed approach
            >
            > Regards,
            > Mircea
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • srinivas chillara
            Hello, This requires a fairly detailed answer. I happen to have significant experience in both (CMMI and Scrum). They are not necessarily incompatible. However
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 7, 2007
              Hello,
              This requires a fairly detailed answer. I happen to
              have significant experience in both (CMMI and Scrum).
              They are not necessarily incompatible. However to meet
              all the KPAs (till level 5) and implement Scrum, I
              suppose, is not realistic.


              > They are committed to a CMM/I based process
              > improvement model and they intend to use the two
              > together.

              They can do it together, with difficulty, but which to
              which CMMI level are we thinking of?


              > What do you think, are there any chances to follow
              > the key practices from CMM (level 2 and 3) and still
              > adopt Scrum principles?

              If you look at Schwaber's book, appendix-E, you'll
              realise that there is a good chance of meeting KPAs at
              levels 2 and 3. If you want to (and can afford) advice
              from the Guru of CMMI mapping, you should contack Mark
              Paulk (of SEI).
              You can also settle for me.



              > Some incompatibilities that I can think of are
              > related to:
              > - institutionalization supposed by CMM which is
              > contrary to Scrum self managed teams

              Oh no, nothing stops you from institutionalising
              Scrum. Not just for software dev, also for all company
              activities that have goals.


              > - the software quality assurance activities
              > (internal audits) that are covered by SQA key
              > process area of CMM

              Actually, in part the Scrum Master does that, and in
              many places a consultant-coach who facilitates
              adoption of Scrum can play this role. Yes there is
              more to this... but it's too long and detailed to put
              up here.


              > - the role and responsibility of project manager
              > that are described in project planning key process
              > area of CMM versus Scrum Master role.

              They are actually not that different.

              > - need for documented, reviewed and baselined
              > procedures and plans, e.g. project management plan
              > versus the product backlog proposed by Scrum.

              Hmmm good point. However the Scrum Backlog is a form
              of project plan. The Scrum Master can take up the role
              of maintaining other artifacts reqd by CMM
              implementation, without disturbing the team.


              > - need of the Change Control Board for change
              > management in CMM versus much simpler approach in
              > Scrum (stories are committed to a Sprint)


              Clever wording can get you out of this hole.

              > - traceability of various artifacts (requirements,
              > test cases) which is advocated by CMM as opposed to
              > a lightweight, sync if needed approach

              Nothing wrong with maintaining traceability. I think
              one should put the case for tracability, and get the
              team and PO to agree for the need for this. If the PO
              says that "traceability is required, so I can say an
              item is DONE" it is in!
              But of a backdoor, but in my opinion useful for the
              long run.


              cheers
              Cheenie





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            • George Dinwiddie
              ... Actually, I think you can do quite well. See http://agilecmmi.com/ The main point is to get auditors who understand the issues, not who use heavyweight
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 7, 2007
                Mircea Nedelcu wrote:
                > Hi,
                >
                > The company in which I work is investigating Scrum for adoption.
                > They are committed to a CMM/I based process improvement model and they intend to use the two together.

                Actually, I think you can do quite well. See http://agilecmmi.com/ The
                main point is to get auditors who understand the issues, not who use
                heavyweight processes as a checklist for CMMI compliance.

                - George

                --
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              • Basharat Wani
                I have a fairly good experience with both CMM level 5 and Scrum, they both can coexist peacefully together. From the perceptive of CMM all the KPA for Level 3
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 7, 2007
                  I have a fairly good experience with both CMM level 5  and Scrum, they both can coexist peacefully together.
                  From the perceptive of CMM all the KPA for Level 3 are also available in SCRUM implementation with little bit of tailoring.
                  Scrum is also mostly a level 3 compliant in terms of CMM .
                   
                  Basharat
                   
                   

                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Dinwiddie
                  Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 7:38 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and CMM

                  Mircea Nedelcu wrote:

                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > The company in which I
                  work is investigating Scrum for adoption.
                  > They are committed to a CMM/I
                  based process improvement model and they intend to use the two together.

                  Actually, I think you can do quite well. See http://agilecmmi. com/ The
                  main point is to get auditors who understand the issues, not who use
                  heavyweight processes as a checklist for CMMI compliance.

                  - George

                  --
                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  * George Dinwiddie * http://blog. gdinwiddie. com
                  Software Development http://www.idiacomp uting.com
                  Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemar yland.org
                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                • mirceaned
                  Hi Thierry, You re right, if the client demands CMMI compliance then this is just another task in the backlog. Just that CMM doesn t seem to be very agile: in
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 7, 2007
                    Hi Thierry,
                    You're right, if the client demands CMMI compliance then this is just
                    another task in the backlog.
                    Just that CMM doesn't seem to be very agile: in my opinion a great
                    emphasize is put on process (audits, Software process engineering
                    groups), contract negotiation (reviews and approvals of documentation,
                    stricter change control), comprehensive documentation (even if client
                    does not request it) and following the plan (see the project
                    management plan in the Project Planning key process area).

                    I don't have extensive knowledge about the CMMI version.

                    Regards,
                    Mircea

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Thierry Cros <tc2mar-tco@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Mircea
                    >
                    > CMMI: Yet Another (Huge) User Story
                    > to be included in the backlog
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Thierry
                    >
                  • Michael Maham
                    I d second the recommendation to look at Hillel s www.agilecmmi.com site. I saw his presentation at the last SEPG conference in Austin and I felt like he
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 7, 2007
                      I'd second the recommendation to look at Hillel's www.agilecmmi.com site.  I saw his presentation at the last SEPG conference in Austin and I felt like he really has a depth of understanding of both Agile and CMMI in way that I don't see in a lot of other people coming from one area or the other.  There's a lot of superficial aatempts from people from either background- for example, I can't take the meeting where the project manager assigns tasks and gets updates on progress and rename it a "daily scrum" and say I'm Agile. 

                      There's also misconceptions about CMMI- for example the practices say you have to manage the changes to a project, it doesn't say *how* you have to do it (ie- with a CCB).  Scrum says how you should be managing some changes - the product owner can re-prioritize the product backlog (not the Scrum Master, not marketing, not the CEO), the stories accepted into a sprint shouldn't be changed during the sprint except as the team needs clarification from the owner, etc.  Similarly, I think a lot of the original examples of potential incompatibilities given in the original email are incompatibilities between a particular set of practices (that happen to meet the expectations of the CMMI model) and Agile principles or Scrum practices.  That doesn't mean those are the *only* practices that meet the goals of the model.

                      Granted, a lot of CMMI based improvement efforts haven't developed particularly agile practices, and I agree that if you are hiring an appraiser or consultant to help you they need to understand all of the organization's goals (ie- to be agile and to be a certain CMMI level), you may need 2 if you can't find someone with enough experience in both areas.

                      Scrum on it's own isn't going to address all of the practices at any level in the CMMI model, XP would cover some of the engineering practices it doesn't, other practices would need to addressed by the organization in ways that make business sense and are agile.

                      michael

                      On 6/7/07, mirceaned <mirceaned@...> wrote:

                      Hi Thierry,
                      You're right, if the client demands CMMI compliance then this is just
                      another task in the backlog.
                      Just that CMM doesn't seem to be very agile: in my opinion a great
                      emphasize is put on process (audits, Software process engineering
                      groups), contract negotiation (reviews and approvals of documentation,
                      stricter change control), comprehensive documentation (even if client
                      does not request it) and following the plan (see the project
                      management plan in the Project Planning key process area).

                      I don't have extensive knowledge about the CMMI version.

                      Regards,
                      Mircea

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Thierry Cros <tc2mar-tco@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Mircea
                      >
                      > CMMI: Yet Another (Huge) User Story
                      > to be included in the backlog
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Thierry
                      >


                    • Michael Vizdos
                      Hi, If the two camps can come together and talk about what is really needed (from a CMM compliance standpoint and actually delivering working software, if
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 8, 2007
                        Hi,

                        If the two "camps" can come together and talk about what is really
                        needed (from a CMM compliance standpoint and actually delivering
                        working software, if that is a goal), you stand a better chance of
                        succeeding if the team understand what "done" looks like from the
                        different perspectives.

                        If you are implementing Scrum because you/they think is is a silver
                        bullet, that is probably not a good reason to use it. Remember that
                        Scrum brings a lot of dysfunctional habits within an organizations,
                        and this can be tough on some people.

                        Talk. Open the communication lines. And make an informed decision.
                        Along with the advice already posted to this thread (smile).

                        Thank you!

                        - mike vizdos
                        www.implementingscrum.com
                        www.michaelvizdos.com


                        On 6/7/07, Mircea Nedelcu <mirceaned@...> wrote:
                        > Hi,
                        >
                        > The company in which I work is investigating Scrum for adoption.
                        > They are committed to a CMM/I based process improvement model and they intend to use the two together.
                        >
                        > What do you think, are there any chances to follow the key practices from CMM (level 2 and 3) and still adopt Scrum principles?
                        >
                        > My opinion is that the two approaches are incompatible, yet there are some opinions from experienced Scrum practitioners that they can be used:
                        > http://jeffsutherland.com/scrum/2006/11/scrum-supports-cmmi-level-5.html
                        >
                        > Some incompatibilities that I can think of are related to:
                        > - institutionalization supposed by CMM which is contrary to Scrum self managed teams
                        > - the software quality assurance activities (internal audits) that are covered by SQA key process area of CMM
                        > - the role and responsibility of project manager that are described in project planning key process area of CMM versus Scrum Master role
                        > - need for documented, reviewed and baselined procedures and plans, e.g. project management plan versus the product backlog proposed by Scrum
                        > - need of the Change Control Board for change management in CMM versus much simpler approach in Scrum (stories are committed to a Sprint)
                        > - traceability of various artifacts (requirements, test cases) which is advocated by CMM as opposed to a lightweight, sync if needed approach
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Mircea
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                        > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                        > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
                        >
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • ceezone
                        Looks like a good blog. Yes, he makes the necessary points. ... they intend to use the two together. ... http://agilecmmi.com/ The ... use ...
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 9, 2007
                          Looks like a good blog. Yes, he makes the necessary points.


                          >
                          > Mircea Nedelcu wrote:
                          > > Hi,
                          > >
                          > > The company in which I work is investigating Scrum for adoption.
                          > > They are committed to a CMM/I based process improvement model and
                          they intend to use the two together.
                          >
                          > Actually, I think you can do quite well. See
                          http://agilecmmi.com/ The
                          > main point is to get auditors who understand the issues, not who
                          use
                          > heavyweight processes as a checklist for CMMI compliance.
                          >
                          > - George
                          >
                          > --
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ----
                          > * George Dinwiddie *
                          http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                          > Software Development
                          http://www.idiacomputing.com
                          > Consultant and Coach
                          http://www.agilemaryland.org
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ----
                          >
                        • srinivas chillara
                          Very well put indeed. However it is Scrum that is more relavent to CMMI than XP. Actually CMMI doesn t cover engineering practices very well (which XP does),
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 9, 2007
                            Very well put indeed. However it is Scrum that is more
                            relavent to CMMI than XP. Actually CMMI doesn't cover
                            engineering practices very well (which XP does), and
                            CMMI implementations don't often really produce good
                            engineering results for this reason.
                            CMMI and SW-CMM are process improvement and management
                            frameworks.

                            Yes, and XP and Scrum are much more prescriptive than
                            CMMI/SW-CMM

                            cheers
                            Cheenie



                            > I'd second the recommendation to look at Hillel's
                            > www.agilecmmi.com site. I
                            > saw his presentation at the last SEPG conference in
                            > Austin and I felt like
                            > he really has a depth of understanding of both Agile
                            > and CMMI in way that I
                            > don't see in a lot of other people coming from one
                            > area or the other.
                            > There's a lot of superficial aatempts from people
                            > from either background-
                            > for example, I can't take the meeting where the
                            > project manager assigns
                            > tasks and gets updates on progress and rename it a
                            > "daily scrum" and say I'm
                            > Agile.
                            >
                            > There's also misconceptions about CMMI- for example
                            > the practices say you
                            > have to manage the changes to a project, it doesn't
                            > say *how* you have to do
                            > it (ie- with a CCB). Scrum says how you should be
                            > managing some changes -
                            > the product owner can re-prioritize the product
                            > backlog (not the Scrum
                            > Master, not marketing, not the CEO), the stories
                            > accepted into a sprint
                            > shouldn't be changed during the sprint except as the
                            > team needs
                            > clarification from the owner, etc. Similarly, I
                            > think a lot of the original
                            > examples of potential incompatibilities given in the
                            > original email are
                            > incompatibilities between a particular set of
                            > practices (that happen to meet
                            > the expectations of the CMMI model) and Agile
                            > principles or Scrum
                            > practices. That doesn't mean those are the *only*
                            > practices that meet the
                            > goals of the model.
                            >
                            > Granted, a lot of CMMI based improvement efforts
                            > haven't developed
                            > particularly agile practices, and I agree that if
                            > you are hiring an
                            > appraiser or consultant to help you they need to
                            > understand all of the
                            > organization's goals (ie- to be agile and to be a
                            > certain CMMI level), you
                            > may need 2 if you can't find someone with enough
                            > experience in both areas.
                            >
                            > Scrum on it's own isn't going to address all of the
                            > practices at any level
                            > in the CMMI model, XP would cover some of the
                            > engineering practices it
                            > doesn't, other practices would need to addressed by
                            > the organization in ways
                            > that make business sense and are agile.
                            >
                            > michael
                            >
                            > On 6/7/07, mirceaned <mirceaned@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Thierry,
                            > > You're right, if the client demands CMMI
                            > compliance then this is just
                            > > another task in the backlog.
                            > > Just that CMM doesn't seem to be very agile: in my
                            > opinion a great
                            > > emphasize is put on process (audits, Software
                            > process engineering
                            > > groups), contract negotiation (reviews and
                            > approvals of documentation,
                            > > stricter change control), comprehensive
                            > documentation (even if client
                            > > does not request it) and following the plan (see
                            > the project
                            > > management plan in the Project Planning key
                            > process area).
                            > >
                            > > I don't have extensive knowledge about the CMMI
                            > version.
                            > >
                            > > Regards,
                            > > Mircea
                            > >
                            > > --- In
                            >
                            scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > Thierry Cros <tc2mar-tco@...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Mircea
                            > > >
                            > > > CMMI: Yet Another (Huge) User Story
                            > > > to be included in the backlog
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Regards,
                            > > > Thierry
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >




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