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SCRUM & UML

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  • Alex Jouravlev
    Hi, I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining SCRUM & UML? Regards, Alex
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 6, 2005
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      Hi,

      I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining SCRUM & UML?

      Regards,

      Alex
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... What kind of use of UML are you concerned about? I m aware of many projects that draw some UML on the whiteboard from time to time, for example. Ron
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 6, 2005
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        On Sunday, March 6, 2005, at 6:16:00 AM, Alex Jouravlev wrote:

        > I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining SCRUM & UML?

        What kind of use of UML are you concerned about? I'm aware of many
        projects that draw some UML on the whiteboard from time to time, for
        example.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        The main reason that testing at the end of a development cycle finds
        problems is not that problems were put in near the end, it is that
        testing was put off until then.
      • Schiel James - SHS Malvern
        Same here...we employ UML in some of our use case work, but only because it works well for the team, not because of any relationship with Scrum. ... This
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 6, 2005
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          Same here...we employ UML in some of our use case work, but only because it
          works well for the team, not because of any relationship with Scrum.

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
          > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 6:37 AM
          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM & UML
          >
          >
          >
          > On Sunday, March 6, 2005, at 6:16:00 AM, Alex Jouravlev wrote:
          >
          > > I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining
          > SCRUM & UML?
          >
          > What kind of use of UML are you concerned about? I'm aware of many
          > projects that draw some UML on the whiteboard from time to time, for
          > example.
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > The main reason that testing at the end of a development cycle finds
          > problems is not that problems were put in near the end, it is that
          > testing was put off until then.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

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        • Paul Hodgetts
          ... Some (at least 5 or more) of the Scrum teams I ve coached over the past few years have used UML in some way. These teams have delivered releases, so I
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 6, 2005
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            Alex Jouravlev wrote:

            > I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining
            > SCRUM & UML?

            Some (at least 5 or more) of the Scrum teams I've coached over
            the past few years have used UML in some way. These teams have
            delivered releases, so I would call them "successful."

            Some of these teams, as Ron described, use UML as a language
            for communicating designs informally on white boards, sheets
            of paper, etc. A few produce technical documentation of their
            designs, and somewhat more formally create the UML diagrams
            with a tool. A couple of teams used their tool to reverse
            generate some diagrams of interest to capture their evolving
            design at milestone points, like the end of a sprint. I have
            not yet worked with a Scrum team that used UML in a Model
            Driven Architecture context to generate code from UML models,
            but I'm very interested if anyone has done so.

            Forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions, but I've had this
            question asked of me by clients and it often leads to this...

            Are you really asking about the use of UML as a modeling and
            communication language for designs, or are you asking about
            some other process, perhaps RUP, that advocates UML within it?

            UML is not a process or method. Scrum is. There is nothing
            about Scrum that includes or excludes the use of UML as a
            modeling language if the team chooses to do so as part of
            their specific engineering practices. Scrum wants to travel
            light, so we push against excessive or unnecessary practices,
            but very little is prohibited by Scrum.

            If you are really asking about the combination of another
            process, like RUP, with Scrum, that's a whole 'nother topic.
            There was a recent article by someone at Rational about it
            (look back through the archives) that was, well, somewhat
            less than satisfying. I know of others, including myself,
            that have tried to bridge the two for clients. I'm very
            interested in discussing it further if that's what you mean.

            Regards,
            Paul
            -----
            Paul Hodgetts -- CEO, Coach, Trainer, Consultant
            Agile Logic -- www.agilelogic.com
            Training, Coaching, Consulting -- Agile Processes/Scrum/Lean/XP
            Complete solutions for adopting agile processes, Scrum and XP.

            Upcoming Events:

            Certified ScrumMaster Training, Las Vegas, NV - April 25-26, 2005
            http://www.agilelogic.com/CSM.html
          • witster_1
            I m implementing Scrum for the first time and we re going to try to incorporate UML notation with it. I know in reading the Scrum resources that it s best to
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 5, 2005
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              I'm implementing Scrum for the first time and we're going to try to
              incorporate UML notation with it. I know in reading the Scrum
              resources that it's best to have the team determine what artifacts
              will guide them in their development effort. To always remember that
              when we're documented to answer the question, "How is this helping us
              code?" But my issue is how do I move forward? In my first sprint,
              I've been asked, "What should the developers be doing while the BA's
              are writing Use Cases?" I have responded by saying that the
              developer should be working right alongside the BA's and coding while
              the Use Cases are being documented. Is this the correct approach??
              Does anyone have some advice for me in moving forward? I'm starting
              to feel that maybe we should spend more time upfront with Use Case
              modeling, writing Use Cases and specs, but then I feel that's not
              being very agile.

              thanks!


              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Schiel James - SHS Malvern
              <james.schiel@s...> wrote:
              >
              > Same here...we employ UML in some of our use case work, but only
              because it
              > works well for the team, not because of any relationship with Scrum.
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@X...]
              > > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 6:37 AM
              > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM & UML
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On Sunday, March 6, 2005, at 6:16:00 AM, Alex Jouravlev wrote:
              > >
              > > > I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining
              > > SCRUM & UML?
              > >
              > > What kind of use of UML are you concerned about? I'm aware of many
              > > projects that draw some UML on the whiteboard from time to time,
              for
              > > example.
              > >
              > > Ron Jeffries
              > > www.XProgramming.com
              > > The main reason that testing at the end of a development cycle
              finds
              > > problems is not that problems were put in near the end, it is that
              > > testing was put off until then.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              -----------
              > This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical
              Solutions
              > USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
              > The information contained herein may include trade secrets or
              privileged or
              > otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review,
              forwarding, printing,
              > copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly
              prohibited and may
              > be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason
              to believe
              > you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this
              message and
              > notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to
              Central.SecurityOffice@s...
              >
              > Thank you
            • Phlip
              ... Let me see how much I got from the book /Agile Modeling/ by Scott Ambler... Draw the right kind of diagram. Not everything is the Class Inheritance
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 5, 2005
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                Alex Jouravlev wrote:

                > I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining SCRUM & UML?

                Let me see how much I got from the book /Agile Modeling/ by Scott Ambler...

                Draw the right kind of diagram. Not everything is the Class Inheritance diagram.

                Draw it to scratch an itch - to satisfy an immediate need. Don't draw
                it to speculate about code to be written a long time from now.

                Enforce the diagram is temporary. Date it - don't waste time upgrading
                it each time the code refactors. Don't use the UML to enable more
                complexity than your code needs.

                Upgrade the document only if the new version is still useful for an
                immediate need.

                Draw simply. A map of California doesn't include my driveway. Don't
                use powertools (such as Visio) to push up the details or complexity.

                Draw collaboratively, and implement the design in code immediately and
                collaboratively. Don't throw anything over any wall.

                Finally, UML is not a methodology, so it has no conflict with Scrum.

                --
                Phlip
              • Steven Gordon
                The point of Scrum is to empower a group of people with the requisite talents, resources, and inputs to work together unencumbered during a predetermined
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 5, 2005
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                  The point of Scrum is to empower a group of people with the requisite talents, resources, and inputs to work together unencumbered during a predetermined period of time to accomplish the tasks they commit to doing. 
                   
                  When external forces start dictating the use of UML to represent requirements instead of customer interaction and start pre-determining what BA-types will do and what coders will do, then do not be surprised if Scrum will not work well.
                   
                  Please, consider:
                  - creating a team with some BA-types, some QA-types, some architect-types, and some coder-types,
                  - give them a backlog of prioritized requirements and access to the customers who have those needs, and
                  - empower them decide how to go about understanding and fulfilling the requirements they commit to handling in an iteration.
                   
                  After each iteration, empower them to decide how to reorganize to become more effective.  If you are the manager, your job is to clear all the obstacles to their effectiveness, not dictate to them how to go about doing their jobs.
                   
                  Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                  Manager, Software Factory
                  Arizona State University
                  PO Box 875506
                  Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                  http://sf.asu.edu
                  (480)-727-6271
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: witster_1 [mailto:cwitty@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:25 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM & UML


                  I'm implementing Scrum for the first time and we're going to try to
                  incorporate UML notation with it.  I know in reading the Scrum
                  resources that it's best to have the team determine what artifacts
                  will guide them in their development effort.  To always remember that
                  when we're documented to answer the question, "How is this helping us
                  code?"  But my issue is how do I move forward?  In my first sprint,
                  I've been asked, "What should the developers be doing while the BA's
                  are writing Use Cases?"  I have responded by saying that the
                  developer should be working right alongside the BA's and coding while
                  the Use Cases are being documented.  Is this the correct approach??
                  Does anyone have some advice for me in moving forward?  I'm starting
                  to feel that maybe we should spend more time upfront with Use Case
                  modeling, writing Use Cases and specs, but then I feel that's not
                  being very agile.

                  thanks!


                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Schiel James - SHS Malvern
                  <james.schiel@s...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Same here...we employ UML in some of our use case work, but only
                  because it
                  > works well for the team, not because of any relationship with Scrum.
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@X...]
                  > > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 6:37 AM
                  > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM & UML
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Sunday, March 6, 2005, at 6:16:00 AM, Alex Jouravlev wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining
                  > > SCRUM & UML?
                  > >
                  > > What kind of use of UML are you concerned about? I'm aware of many
                  > > projects that draw some UML on the whiteboard from time to time,
                  for
                  > > example.
                  > >
                  > > Ron Jeffries
                  > > www.XProgramming.com
                  > > The main reason that testing at the end of a development cycle
                  finds
                  > > problems is not that problems were put in near the end, it is that
                  > > testing was put off until then.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@e...
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  > This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical
                  Solutions
                  > USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s). 
                  > The information contained herein may include trade secrets or
                  privileged or
                  > otherwise confidential information.  Unauthorized review,
                  forwarding, printing,
                  > copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly
                  prohibited and may
                  > be unlawful.  If you received this message in error, or have reason
                  to believe
                  > you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this
                  message and
                  > notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to
                  Central.SecurityOffice@s...
                  >
                  > Thank you





                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


                • Stefan Ahrensdorf
                  I agree with the other two responses on the subject but wanted to add what I found to work well for us: Apply UML as one of several tools in your arsenal when
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 5, 2005
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                    I agree with the other two responses on the subject but wanted to add what I found to work well for us:

                    Apply UML as one of several tools in your arsenal when appropriate, that is optional.
                    I like state, activity and sequence diagrams both for internal elaboration and when communicating with the product owner and users - it's the old "a picture says more than a thousand words". Don't have your BA's draw tons (or any for that matter) of them upfront but whiteboard them in an interactive fashion. Take a picture with your digicam for reference. If and only if you need to extend the diagram in a future sprint, or the diagram is pertinent to core business rules that you need to reference throughout the project consider drawing it up nicely in Visio or similar.
                    On class diagrams - beyond whiteboarding use them only if there is a good (read automated) way of keeping them in sync with your code. If you can't keep them in sync then your code becomes your documentation. Same goes for database schemas.
                    If your team grows/changes a lot start thinking about some basic references to get help people get up to speed, i.e. a high level architecture overview, deployment diagrams, and some database stuff.

                    hth
                    Best regards
                    Stefan

                    witster_1 wrote on 4/5/2005 11:25 AM:

                    I'm implementing Scrum for the first time and we're going to try to
                    incorporate UML notation with it.  I know in reading the Scrum
                    resources that it's best to have the team determine what artifacts
                    will guide them in their development effort.  To always remember that
                    when we're documented to answer the question, "How is this helping us
                    code?"  But my issue is how do I move forward?  In my first sprint,
                    I've been asked, "What should the developers be doing while the BA's
                    are writing Use Cases?"  I have responded by saying that the
                    developer should be working right alongside the BA's and coding while
                    the Use Cases are being documented.  Is this the correct approach??
                    Does anyone have some advice for me in moving forward?  I'm starting
                    to feel that maybe we should spend more time upfront with Use Case
                    modeling, writing Use Cases and specs, but then I feel that's not
                    being very agile.

                    thanks!


                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Schiel James - SHS Malvern
                    <james.schiel@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Same here...we employ UML in some of our use case work, but only
                    because it
                    > works well for the team, not because of any relationship with Scrum.
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@X...]
                    > > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 6:37 AM
                    > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] SCRUM & UML
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Sunday, March 6, 2005, at 6:16:00 AM, Alex Jouravlev wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > I wonder if anybody knows of sucessful projects combining
                    > > SCRUM & UML?
                    > >
                    > > What kind of use of UML are you concerned about? I'm aware of many
                    > > projects that draw some UML on the whiteboard from time to time,
                    for
                    > > example.
                    > >
                    > > Ron Jeffries
                    > > www.XProgramming.com
                    > > The main reason that testing at the end of a development cycle
                    finds
                    > > problems is not that problems were put in near the end, it is that
                    > > testing was put off until then.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@e...
                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    -----------
                    > This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical
                    Solutions
                    > USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s). 
                    > The information contained herein may include trade secrets or
                    privileged or
                    > otherwise confidential information.  Unauthorized review,
                    forwarding, printing,
                    > copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly
                    prohibited and may
                    > be unlawful.  If you received this message in error, or have reason
                    to believe
                    > you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this
                    message and
                    > notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to
                    Central.SecurityOffice@s...
                    >
                    > Thank you





                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


                  • Leo Zancani
                    A pair of ponderings on about UML: First: IMHO, UML is a useful way of communicating about software when you want to be just a little bit more specific in your
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 6, 2005
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                      A pair of ponderings on about UML:

                      First:
                      IMHO, UML is a useful way of communicating about software when you want
                      to be just a little bit more specific in your communication than
                      undefined-semantics-boxes-and-arrows scribbles (also very useful of
                      course).

                      Worrying about it feels a bit like some maths guys worrying about
                      whether to use the "f'(x)" or "df(x)/dx" notation for derivatives; who
                      cares as long as everyone understands it?

                      Second:
                      Again only an opinion, but I think UML *notation* has two distinct uses:
                      (1) to notate UML *models* (which are abstract entities for which the
                      different UML diagram types represent views) and (2) to help software
                      people talk about software.

                      Unless you are doing (1), where the diagrams need to be "correct and
                      complete" for the underlying model to be consistent and complete, using
                      "correct and complete" UML is a bit like putting serifs on characters
                      when you draw them by hand.

                      I've never heard of anyone doing UML modelling in an agile context
                      (mostly because we don't live in a world where the tools are good enough
                      that a UML model is just an alternative to code). A lot of teams I've
                      seen use it (to whatever degree of detail/correctness is appropriate at
                      that instant) to talk to each other about software though...

                      Cheers,
                      Leo

                      > I'm implementing Scrum for the first time and we're going to try to
                      > incorporate UML notation with it. I know in reading the Scrum
                      > resources that it's best to have the team determine what artifacts
                      > will guide them in their development effort. To always remember that
                      > when we're documented to answer the question, "How is this helping us
                      > code?" But my issue is how do I move forward? In my first sprint,
                      > I've been asked, "What should the developers be doing while the BA's
                      > are writing Use Cases?" I have responded by saying that the
                      > developer should be working right alongside the BA's and coding while
                      > the Use Cases are being documented. Is this the correct approach??
                      > Does anyone have some advice for me in moving forward? I'm starting
                      > to feel that maybe we should spend more time upfront with Use Case
                      > modeling, writing Use Cases and specs, but then I feel that's not
                      > being very agile.
                      >
                      > thanks!
                      >
                      >
                    • Boris Gloger
                      Hi ----, I do have four Scrum Teams runningn in sync and we will using MDSD in the future. [...] I have ... So I hope I will be able to answer this question in
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 6, 2005
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                        Hi ----,

                        I do have four Scrum Teams runningn in sync and we will using MDSD in
                        the future.
                        [...]

                        I have
                        > not yet worked with a Scrum team that used UML in a Model
                        > Driven Architecture context to generate code from UML models,
                        > but I'm very interested if anyone has done so.
                        >

                        So I hope I will be able to answer this question in future with more insight.

                        What I will try to find out ist to see in which way we will be able to
                        build an "incremental" archtitecture that emerges by using MDSD and
                        the tools for this.

                        Cheers

                        Boris
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