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RE: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In

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  • Laurent Bossavit
    ... When you say anything , do you really mean *anything* ? Cheers, -[Morendil]- [ This tagline has been left blank intentionally. ]
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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      Lowell:

      > My belief is that anything that gets people exposed to the values and
      > principles and gets them trying the practices is good for XP and Agile.

      When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?

      Cheers,

      -[Morendil]-
      [ This tagline has been left blank intentionally. ]
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good for XP and
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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        On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 10:21:25 AM, Laurent Bossavit wrote:

        > Lowell:

        >> My belief is that anything that gets people exposed to the values and
        >> principles and gets them trying the practices is good for XP and Agile.

        > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?

        Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
        principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
        for XP and agile?

        For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable person would
        actually do that meets those criteria?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Wisdom begins when we discover the difference between
        "That makes no sense" and "I don't understand". --Mary Doria Russell
      • Mike Cohn
        My comment that this will be bad for XP was because I think it will cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn t work for them. For
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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          My comment that this will be "bad for XP" was because I think it will
          cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn't
          work for them. For example, a company may decide it likes Simple Design
          and Refactoring but not TDD or Pair Programming. They'll try that and
          probably finds it degenerates into hacking. They'll then spread the word
          that XP didn't work "when we tried it." One of my big concerns is that
          we're entering a period where we're going to hear lots of failure
          stories about people who "tried" agile methods but didn't really try
          them:

          --"We did XP except that silly testing stuff, the pair programming and
          the on-site customer and in the end our product wasn't what the market
          wanted and it was buggy!"
          --"We tried Scrum except for those dumb daily meetings and after two
          six-month long sprints our product wasn't very good."
          --"We left the prototyping out of DSDM and it didn't work for us."

          There's a discontinuity in one's thinking between agile and plan-driven
          processes and I think new adoptees either need to "get it" or they need
          to try agile "by the book" and do everything prescribed exactly as
          prescribed until they do get it. Because RUP is such a "pick what you
          need" tool/methodology it seems clear that users of the plugin will
          bring that mindset to it and some will undoubtedly pick some horrible
          combinations of XP + their current process.

          You're right though--if someone eventually gets XP (any agile process)
          after having done it by faith (but completely) they will become very
          firm believers. And I'm sure the plugin will lead to that type of
          experience for many new XP converts. My comment was about those who use
          the plugin but order from it as though it were a restaurant menu.

          --Mike



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
          Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:02 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In

          >
          > Bringing all this back to your conclusion: The Plugin is
          > great for RUP, bad for XP. I totally agree with you on this. XP will
          be
          tried by some
          > organizations who wouldn't have tried it otherwise. It will help
          somewhat
          but not all
          > the way (XP will be viewed as a failure by them) but their engineering
          practices
          > will be improved by some of the XP practices.
          >

          I have always believed that doing the practices, but not "getting it,"
          is
          better than not doing the practices. If someone is not going to "get
          it"
          through the literature and does not have an audience with someone who
          can
          explain it, then the best shot is to try it and see it work.

          What you are describing as bad for XP is the status quo for XP (and any
          other method). The Plug-In won't have much of an effect on that, no
          matter
          how well or poorly written.

          Many teams do XP "not all way." My understanding is that SCRUM is often
          used in cases where a team won't do XP all the way. Many have used
          parts
          of XP to improve their engineering practices. How is this bad for XP?
          I
          think its great! Not everyone is going to have this instant revelation
          on
          how wonderful emergence and self-organization are. Some will need to
          see
          the practices work before they are open to such a revelation. I've
          observed
          some cases, where the revelation is much stronger having come from a
          real
          experience versus an intellectual activity.

          My belief is that anything that gets people exposed to the values and
          principles and gets them trying the practices is good for XP and Agile.


          All that said, how to express the values in a non-interactive media is
          very
          difficult and something we'll continue to work hard on.

          Thanks again for the feedback!

          Lowell
          ====================
          Lowell Lindstrom
          Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
          lindstrom@...


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        • Laurent Bossavit
          ... Yes. Easily. The term anything covers a lot of ground. Can you think of one specific example, and describe it ? ;- ... Yeah. A reasonable manager might
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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            > > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?
            >
            > Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
            > principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
            > for XP and agile?

            Yes. Easily. The term "anything" covers a lot of ground. Can you
            think of one specific example, and describe it ? ;->

            > For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable person would
            > actually do that meets those criteria?

            Yeah. A reasonable manager might be swayed by (say) the RUP XP plug-
            in, and (not meaning any harm) instruct his subordinates "You *will*
            use XP on all projects henceforth. Here, this CD-ROM has what you
            need to succeed."

            Bitter personal experience suggests that such an approach might leave
            some people *less* inclined to consider agile process than they were
            previously.

            Cheers,

            -[Morendil]-
            On a clear disk you can seek forever
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... I suggest that this example doesn t meet Lowell s criteria: it doesn t expose people to the values and principles, and doesn t do a good job of getting
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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              On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:18:57 AM, Laurent Bossavit wrote:

              >> > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?
              >>
              >> Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
              >> principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
              >> for XP and agile?

              > Yes. Easily. The term "anything" covers a lot of ground. Can you
              > think of one specific example, and describe it ? ;->

              >> For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable person would
              >> actually do that meets those criteria?

              > Yeah. A reasonable manager might be swayed by (say) the RUP XP plug-
              > in, and (not meaning any harm) instruct his subordinates "You *will*
              > use XP on all projects henceforth. Here, this CD-ROM has what you
              > need to succeed."

              > Bitter personal experience suggests that such an approach might leave
              > some people *less* inclined to consider agile process than they were
              > previously.

              I suggest that this example doesn't meet Lowell's criteria: it doesn't
              expose people to the values and principles, and doesn't do a good job
              of getting them trying the practices.

              But if it /did/ really expose them to the values and principles, and
              really /did/ get them trying the practices, the outcome you describe
              seems quite unlikely.

              Am I missing something?

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              He who will not apply new remedies must expect old evils. -- Francis Bacon
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Yes. I ve spent a lot of time in the past few years digging into such claims and finding out what they didn t do. The problem occurs in teams who think
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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                On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:10:28 AM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                > My comment that this will be "bad for XP" was because I think it will
                > cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn't
                > work for them. For example, a company may decide it likes Simple Design
                > and Refactoring but not TDD or Pair Programming. They'll try that and
                > probably finds it degenerates into hacking. They'll then spread the word
                > that XP didn't work "when we tried it." One of my big concerns is that
                > we're entering a period where we're going to hear lots of failure
                > stories about people who "tried" agile methods but didn't really try
                > them:

                > --"We did XP except that silly testing stuff, the pair programming and
                > the on-site customer and in the end our product wasn't what the market
                > wanted and it was buggy!"
                > --"We tried Scrum except for those dumb daily meetings and after two
                > six-month long sprints our product wasn't very good."
                > --"We left the prototyping out of DSDM and it didn't work for us."

                Yes. I've spent a lot of time in the past few years digging into such
                claims and finding out what they didn't do.

                The problem occurs in teams who think they are really trying the new
                thing. I'm not sure that RUP exacerbates that problem: in fact, I
                think it possible that putting some RUP phases over a half-bun XP or
                Scrum project might detect problems /sooner/ than if there were no
                command and control guys around.

                > There's a discontinuity in one's thinking between agile and plan-driven
                > processes and I think new adoptees either need to "get it" or they need
                > to try agile "by the book" and do everything prescribed exactly as
                > prescribed until they do get it. Because RUP is such a "pick what you
                > need" tool/methodology it seems clear that users of the plugin will
                > bring that mindset to it and some will undoubtedly pick some horrible
                > combinations of XP + their current process.

                I would prefer that as well. We've tried, and will continue to try, to
                make the plug-in clear on that point, and to educate Rational further
                as well. It is true that they come from a big systems, command and
                control, defined kind of thinking, so it's hard for them. It is also
                true that good things have come from that thinking as well as some not
                so good things.

                I don't think RUP is the devil. I think chaos is the devil.

                > You're right though--if someone eventually gets XP (any agile process)
                > after having done it by faith (but completely) they will become very
                > firm believers. And I'm sure the plugin will lead to that type of
                > experience for many new XP converts. My comment was about those who use
                > the plugin but order from it as though it were a restaurant menu.

                Yes. It could happen. It will happen. If there's to be a plug-in, I
                want it to be as clear as possible. That's why I reluctantly agreed to
                be a part of it, and why I so badly want the community's input.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Discontinue reading if rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops.
                Especially irritation.
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