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RE: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In

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  • Lowell Lindstrom
    ... tried by some ... but not all ... practices ... I have always believed that doing the practices, but not getting it, is better than not doing the
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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      >
      > Bringing all this back to your conclusion: The Plugin is
      > great for RUP, bad for XP. I totally agree with you on this. XP will be
      tried by some
      > organizations who wouldn't have tried it otherwise. It will help somewhat
      but not all
      > the way (XP will be viewed as a failure by them) but their engineering
      practices
      > will be improved by some of the XP practices.
      >

      I have always believed that doing the practices, but not "getting it," is
      better than not doing the practices. If someone is not going to "get it"
      through the literature and does not have an audience with someone who can
      explain it, then the best shot is to try it and see it work.

      What you are describing as bad for XP is the status quo for XP (and any
      other method). The Plug-In won't have much of an effect on that, no matter
      how well or poorly written.

      Many teams do XP "not all way." My understanding is that SCRUM is often
      used in cases where a team won't do XP all the way. Many have used parts
      of XP to improve their engineering practices. How is this bad for XP? I
      think its great! Not everyone is going to have this instant revelation on
      how wonderful emergence and self-organization are. Some will need to see
      the practices work before they are open to such a revelation. I've observed
      some cases, where the revelation is much stronger having come from a real
      experience versus an intellectual activity.

      My belief is that anything that gets people exposed to the values and
      principles and gets them trying the practices is good for XP and Agile.

      All that said, how to express the values in a non-interactive media is very
      difficult and something we'll continue to work hard on.

      Thanks again for the feedback!

      Lowell
      ====================
      Lowell Lindstrom
      Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
      lindstrom@...
    • Laurent Bossavit
      ... When you say anything , do you really mean *anything* ? Cheers, -[Morendil]- [ This tagline has been left blank intentionally. ]
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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        Lowell:

        > My belief is that anything that gets people exposed to the values and
        > principles and gets them trying the practices is good for XP and Agile.

        When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?

        Cheers,

        -[Morendil]-
        [ This tagline has been left blank intentionally. ]
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good for XP and
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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          On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 10:21:25 AM, Laurent Bossavit wrote:

          > Lowell:

          >> My belief is that anything that gets people exposed to the values and
          >> principles and gets them trying the practices is good for XP and Agile.

          > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?

          Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
          principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
          for XP and agile?

          For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable person would
          actually do that meets those criteria?

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Wisdom begins when we discover the difference between
          "That makes no sense" and "I don't understand". --Mary Doria Russell
        • Mike Cohn
          My comment that this will be bad for XP was because I think it will cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn t work for them. For
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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            My comment that this will be "bad for XP" was because I think it will
            cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn't
            work for them. For example, a company may decide it likes Simple Design
            and Refactoring but not TDD or Pair Programming. They'll try that and
            probably finds it degenerates into hacking. They'll then spread the word
            that XP didn't work "when we tried it." One of my big concerns is that
            we're entering a period where we're going to hear lots of failure
            stories about people who "tried" agile methods but didn't really try
            them:

            --"We did XP except that silly testing stuff, the pair programming and
            the on-site customer and in the end our product wasn't what the market
            wanted and it was buggy!"
            --"We tried Scrum except for those dumb daily meetings and after two
            six-month long sprints our product wasn't very good."
            --"We left the prototyping out of DSDM and it didn't work for us."

            There's a discontinuity in one's thinking between agile and plan-driven
            processes and I think new adoptees either need to "get it" or they need
            to try agile "by the book" and do everything prescribed exactly as
            prescribed until they do get it. Because RUP is such a "pick what you
            need" tool/methodology it seems clear that users of the plugin will
            bring that mindset to it and some will undoubtedly pick some horrible
            combinations of XP + their current process.

            You're right though--if someone eventually gets XP (any agile process)
            after having done it by faith (but completely) they will become very
            firm believers. And I'm sure the plugin will lead to that type of
            experience for many new XP converts. My comment was about those who use
            the plugin but order from it as though it were a restaurant menu.

            --Mike



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
            Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:02 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In

            >
            > Bringing all this back to your conclusion: The Plugin is
            > great for RUP, bad for XP. I totally agree with you on this. XP will
            be
            tried by some
            > organizations who wouldn't have tried it otherwise. It will help
            somewhat
            but not all
            > the way (XP will be viewed as a failure by them) but their engineering
            practices
            > will be improved by some of the XP practices.
            >

            I have always believed that doing the practices, but not "getting it,"
            is
            better than not doing the practices. If someone is not going to "get
            it"
            through the literature and does not have an audience with someone who
            can
            explain it, then the best shot is to try it and see it work.

            What you are describing as bad for XP is the status quo for XP (and any
            other method). The Plug-In won't have much of an effect on that, no
            matter
            how well or poorly written.

            Many teams do XP "not all way." My understanding is that SCRUM is often
            used in cases where a team won't do XP all the way. Many have used
            parts
            of XP to improve their engineering practices. How is this bad for XP?
            I
            think its great! Not everyone is going to have this instant revelation
            on
            how wonderful emergence and self-organization are. Some will need to
            see
            the practices work before they are open to such a revelation. I've
            observed
            some cases, where the revelation is much stronger having come from a
            real
            experience versus an intellectual activity.

            My belief is that anything that gets people exposed to the values and
            principles and gets them trying the practices is good for XP and Agile.


            All that said, how to express the values in a non-interactive media is
            very
            difficult and something we'll continue to work hard on.

            Thanks again for the feedback!

            Lowell
            ====================
            Lowell Lindstrom
            Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
            lindstrom@...


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          • Laurent Bossavit
            ... Yes. Easily. The term anything covers a lot of ground. Can you think of one specific example, and describe it ? ;- ... Yeah. A reasonable manager might
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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              > > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?
              >
              > Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
              > principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
              > for XP and agile?

              Yes. Easily. The term "anything" covers a lot of ground. Can you
              think of one specific example, and describe it ? ;->

              > For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable person would
              > actually do that meets those criteria?

              Yeah. A reasonable manager might be swayed by (say) the RUP XP plug-
              in, and (not meaning any harm) instruct his subordinates "You *will*
              use XP on all projects henceforth. Here, this CD-ROM has what you
              need to succeed."

              Bitter personal experience suggests that such an approach might leave
              some people *less* inclined to consider agile process than they were
              previously.

              Cheers,

              -[Morendil]-
              On a clear disk you can seek forever
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... I suggest that this example doesn t meet Lowell s criteria: it doesn t expose people to the values and principles, and doesn t do a good job of getting
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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                On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:18:57 AM, Laurent Bossavit wrote:

                >> > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?
                >>
                >> Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
                >> principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
                >> for XP and agile?

                > Yes. Easily. The term "anything" covers a lot of ground. Can you
                > think of one specific example, and describe it ? ;->

                >> For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable person would
                >> actually do that meets those criteria?

                > Yeah. A reasonable manager might be swayed by (say) the RUP XP plug-
                > in, and (not meaning any harm) instruct his subordinates "You *will*
                > use XP on all projects henceforth. Here, this CD-ROM has what you
                > need to succeed."

                > Bitter personal experience suggests that such an approach might leave
                > some people *less* inclined to consider agile process than they were
                > previously.

                I suggest that this example doesn't meet Lowell's criteria: it doesn't
                expose people to the values and principles, and doesn't do a good job
                of getting them trying the practices.

                But if it /did/ really expose them to the values and principles, and
                really /did/ get them trying the practices, the outcome you describe
                seems quite unlikely.

                Am I missing something?

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                He who will not apply new remedies must expect old evils. -- Francis Bacon
              • Ron Jeffries
                ... Yes. I ve spent a lot of time in the past few years digging into such claims and finding out what they didn t do. The problem occurs in teams who think
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 7, 2002
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                  On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:10:28 AM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                  > My comment that this will be "bad for XP" was because I think it will
                  > cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn't
                  > work for them. For example, a company may decide it likes Simple Design
                  > and Refactoring but not TDD or Pair Programming. They'll try that and
                  > probably finds it degenerates into hacking. They'll then spread the word
                  > that XP didn't work "when we tried it." One of my big concerns is that
                  > we're entering a period where we're going to hear lots of failure
                  > stories about people who "tried" agile methods but didn't really try
                  > them:

                  > --"We did XP except that silly testing stuff, the pair programming and
                  > the on-site customer and in the end our product wasn't what the market
                  > wanted and it was buggy!"
                  > --"We tried Scrum except for those dumb daily meetings and after two
                  > six-month long sprints our product wasn't very good."
                  > --"We left the prototyping out of DSDM and it didn't work for us."

                  Yes. I've spent a lot of time in the past few years digging into such
                  claims and finding out what they didn't do.

                  The problem occurs in teams who think they are really trying the new
                  thing. I'm not sure that RUP exacerbates that problem: in fact, I
                  think it possible that putting some RUP phases over a half-bun XP or
                  Scrum project might detect problems /sooner/ than if there were no
                  command and control guys around.

                  > There's a discontinuity in one's thinking between agile and plan-driven
                  > processes and I think new adoptees either need to "get it" or they need
                  > to try agile "by the book" and do everything prescribed exactly as
                  > prescribed until they do get it. Because RUP is such a "pick what you
                  > need" tool/methodology it seems clear that users of the plugin will
                  > bring that mindset to it and some will undoubtedly pick some horrible
                  > combinations of XP + their current process.

                  I would prefer that as well. We've tried, and will continue to try, to
                  make the plug-in clear on that point, and to educate Rational further
                  as well. It is true that they come from a big systems, command and
                  control, defined kind of thinking, so it's hard for them. It is also
                  true that good things have come from that thinking as well as some not
                  so good things.

                  I don't think RUP is the devil. I think chaos is the devil.

                  > You're right though--if someone eventually gets XP (any agile process)
                  > after having done it by faith (but completely) they will become very
                  > firm believers. And I'm sure the plugin will lead to that type of
                  > experience for many new XP converts. My comment was about those who use
                  > the plugin but order from it as though it were a restaurant menu.

                  Yes. It could happen. It will happen. If there's to be a plug-in, I
                  want it to be as clear as possible. That's why I reluctantly agreed to
                  be a part of it, and why I so badly want the community's input.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Discontinue reading if rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops.
                  Especially irritation.
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