Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a "management" org

Expand Messages
  • Mike Cohn
    Dan-- One of the nice things with Scrum is that it is very applicable at organizational levels above where the software happens. When I ve sold Scrum to
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
      Dan--
      One of the nice things with Scrum is that it is very applicable at
      organizational levels above where the software happens. When I've sold
      Scrum to directors, VPs, CEOs, etc., the approach I take is

      1)describe the problem(s) they are currently facing and get their
      agreement that I really know the problems. You can probably do this with
      some variation of "Our products are generally well received and have
      acceptable defect levels but customers are constantly pushing for faster
      deliveries" or "We meet our dates but we always end up cutting some
      (many?) of the features we've previously told people we'll have in the
      product.

      2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
      "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
      Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
      project in one month increments and that during that one month the
      developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
      want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
      like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
      the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
      "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
      the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
      they can commit to. Tell the person you're selling about the "daily
      scrum" meetings and tell him how he can attend any of these he wants but
      that he's a chicken and will be there just to observe.

      3) Explain how the Product Owner can call "Release!" whenever he or she
      wants following a sprint. Tell him how any estimates you give decrease
      in accuracy quickly beyond one or two sprints into the future. Negotiate
      that estimates from you will be in the number of sprints (months) it
      will take to do the project. I'll typically say something like, "Based
      on my understanding of the features needed before we can sell the new
      version, I estimate this project will take 3-5 sprints (months) before
      it will releasable. We'll be at the 3 end if we opt to release near the
      low end of what the Product Owner says is needed and if things go well;
      we'll be at the 5 if we're at the high end of that or if we have some
      problems or turnover, etc. Most importantly, we'll be able to make that
      decision on a month-to-month basis."

      4) Go over some of the economics (not really the dollars, though) of
      what you're proposing. For example, a point that Ken taught me is how
      really low the opportunity cost for Scrum is. What is the absolute worst
      case of trying Scrum for 30 days? Scrum can be implemented in a day and
      without any tool costs or dramatic changes in engineering practices
      (some changes are usually appropriate, especially incorporating some of
      the good ideas from XP but they aren't necessary right off). In an
      absolutely disastrous situation the team would have gone off and coded
      for 30 days and produced something that the organization doesn't want.
      Even if you find Scrum doesn't work for some reason then you switch back
      after 30 days.

      5) Scrum really takes off when you get the whole company thinking Scrum.
      I'm working with an organization right now and we're moving Scrum up
      from the engineers to a process we use for allocating resources across
      the company. This is a really small company (20 people) but they have
      dozens of commercial products and so we're starting to introduce a
      higher level set of Scrum activities to decide where programmers should
      spend their time. I haven't tried this yet (but I will within two weeks)
      but I am really intrigued with using Real Option Valuation (an
      alternative to simple ROI calculations) in these management Scrums.

      In terms of expanding Scrum beyond development so that it includes all
      of the other product deliverables: There's really no secret there--just
      put those items on the product backlog and then move them into
      appropriate sprint backlogs. On most products this feels a bit weird but
      it's still worth doing. What I mean by that is you put tasks on the
      backlog of "write user's guide" and like Scrum says you don't really
      assign that to a particular person. Well, if you've only got one tech
      writer it's pretty obvious who will do the work. It's the same case with
      "design packaging" and "write marketing collateral" and "place ads" etc.
      All those activities are not ones a programmer is likely to pull off a
      sprint backlog list. Anyway, I do track them on the sprint backlog
      because it helps me get a good overall view of the project AND many of
      these activities do spinoff engineering tasks--e.g., proofreading
      sections of the manual, etc. Those tasks can be handled just like coding
      tasks so they should be tracked that way. Also, this helps make sure
      that these tasks aren't forgotten when the programmers plan how much
      they can get done. One thing I do when I'm tracking these types of
      activities--I'll typically leave them out of my sprint burndown charts
      (so the burndown chart is just the "true" engineering tasks (including
      test)), or I may show the burndown with and without them, depending on
      the project. The burndown charts are most useful when there's a lot of
      uncertainty in tasks. For example, most tech writers end up having their
      work very timeboxed such that they know they have 3 days on chapter 1
      and 5 on chapter 2. Those types of tasks burn down at predictable rates
      so they mask real trends in the burndown chart.

      Yes, use your marketing team or ideally a single "Product Manager" in
      that group as your customer. I've done plenty of commercial software
      w/Scrum and always use that type of person. I've had people suggest I
      use a "customer advisory team" but I've always been in too big of a
      hurry for that and trust the Product Manager to invoke such a team on
      the occasional item where it's necessary.

      Good luck and post some progress reports to this group. I'm sure I'm not
      the only one who would like to hear how it goes.

      --Mike


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Dan Brown [mailto:kid_danomite@...]
      Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 7:42 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
      "management" org

      I assume everyone in the list followed this comment, but it is worth
      repeating. Yahoo Groups has a nice digest feature; no advertisements
      (except for the people who SP~M the group), and the one daily e-mail
      makes for a quick read to scan for what is interesting.

      As the saying goes, "and now for something completely different."

      I would love to get feedback from those with some experience in a
      management-centric environment on how to get some traction with
      Agile. Here's the current situation: I've introduced a slight
      variation of scrum that is only within our development group (we are
      basically handed a product backlog that does not change at the
      beginning of development). While scrum is not quite ubiquitous on
      teams, it is fairly well received within development, but there are a
      couple challenges to becoming truly agile.

      First, as I mentioned, we tend to be a management-centric group, so
      it's been a challenge for the leadership to let go of the reigns a
      bit and also for a lot of the development team to grab on and drive.
      Second, we deliver to external customers, so our marketing team, I
      think, would be our closest proxy for "the customer" but I haven't
      yet successfully engaged them in the process. Finally, if we can
      successfully engage the rest of the business, I need a better
      understanding of how we expand the scope from software deliveries at
      the end of each sprint, to a complete product delivery that is ready
      for manufacture, sale, and service when we launch to external
      customers.

      Thanks so much in advance for any advice anyone can pass my way.

      Dan


      --- In scrumdevelopment@y..., "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
      > It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don't bother me very much
      because
      > I use email rather than the web for this group.
      >




      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing? Thanks, Ron Jeffries
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
        On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

        > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
        > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
        > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
        > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
        > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
        > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
        > like a problem in your case).

        I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
        they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

        Thanks,

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct answer?
      • Ken Schwaber
        Ron s right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed. The
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
          Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can
          of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
          The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they have
          to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
          and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
          they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the technology
          untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
          can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.
          Ken

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
          Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:40 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
          "management" org


          On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

          > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
          > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
          > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
          > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
          > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
          > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
          > like a problem in your case).

          I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
          they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

          Thanks,

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct
          answer?



          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by committing to what they sign up for . Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to see if I
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
            On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 9:46:28 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

            > Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can
            > of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
            > The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they have
            > to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
            > and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
            > they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the technology
            > untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
            > can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.

            Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by "committing to what they
            sign up for". Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to
            see if I understand. These are in the form of statements, but they are
            really questions:

            In Scrum, the developers pick from an ordered list of backlog, that
            is the Backlog Owner says what the priorities are and the team does
            the top N that they feel they can commit to, based on their
            assessment of their velocity.

            In XP, based on existing estimates for stories and on the team's
            measured velocity, the customer picks stories that s/he next wants
            to see done. The team signs up for those.

            Comparing, in Scrum the team commits to the high level goals but not
            to the details, nor to the how. In XP, the team undertakes to meet
            the Customer's detailed acceptance tests, but still not to the how,
            and renegotiates when it appears that they will fall short. XP
            involves the Customer in the tradeoff decision, while by definition,
            pardon the term, Scrum does not. (I'll bet that in practice, Scrum
            teams do commonly go to the owner and offer alternatives when
            there's tradeoff to be done.)

            So there's an equivalent amount of real "commitment", I'd say. Now
            Mike said:

            > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
            > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
            > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
            > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
            > like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
            > the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
            > "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
            > the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
            > they can commit to.

            In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
            and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
            roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
            hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
            will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
            let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

            Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
            do you deal with it?

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda
          • Mike Cohn
            Hmm, I must not have been clear. Here s how a typical Scrum project goes for me: First we work with a Product Owner to jumpstart the Product Backlog with all
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
              Hmm, I must not have been clear. Here's how a typical Scrum project goes
              for me:

              First we work with a "Product Owner" to jumpstart the Product Backlog
              with all the "obvious" items on the list. (For the last year I've been
              capturing most of these as XP stories.) This takes a few hours and
              results in what will usually be 2-6 months of work for the team. I don't
              estimate it at that point but by the time most organizations get around
              to deciding to actually develop a product they have lots of ideas about
              what goes in it--some good, some bad.

              Based on what the Product Owner says the priorities are the team pulls
              off the top N tasks and says "This is what we can commit to finishing
              (tested, etc.) in a month." In reality it's never the exact top N tasks
              but rather it is the top M tasks plus "a few" more that are near the top
              but not the "next" items. I've never met a Product Owner who had a
              problem with this because their prioritization are approximate anyway,
              especially early on.

              The team codes. The Product Owner comes up with new items on the
              Backlog.

              So--yes, the team commits to completing as much as they can but they
              make that commitment at the start of the sprint (iteration) by pulling
              off a bundle of work. As Ken noted the real measure of their success is
              against a "sprint goal," which is a summary of what they're doing in the
              sprint, not against the exact list of tasks. I'm not sure I've had more
              than a couple of sprints deliver everything exactly in the sprint and no
              more/no less. Usually the team will pull a couple of things in and/or
              ask for permission to defer an item or two.

              Most of the Scrum teams I've worked with tend to pull in too much
              (especially at first) so I've encouraged them to pull in what they "know
              they can do". That way we know we'll finish the most important tasks and
              we can pull more in from there. I don't like situations where we pull in
              the 10 most important and then decide we're not going to finish so we
              drop the second-most important item. That's wrong for delivering value
              to our customer so I encourage it to go the other way. XP's idea of
              velocity here has been very useful in helping me assist Scrum teams by
              knowing how much they need to over or underestimate their capacity.

              --Mike



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
              Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 11:40 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
              "management" org

              On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

              > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the
              name
              > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile
              etc...".
              > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
              > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
              > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that
              you
              > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
              > like a problem in your case).

              I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
              they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

              Thanks,

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the
              correct answer?



              To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... You are that, Ken, you are that. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
                On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:19:09 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                > BTW, I was so pleased when I read one of your last emails and you said that
                > I was a better, better man. Thanks!

                You are that, Ken, you are that. ;->

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
              • Ken Schwaber
                Your assessment of xP and Scrum practices is correct, and collaboration is of course the solution. And, in both, it is the team that selects how much they can
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
                  Your assessment of xP and Scrum practices is correct, and collaboration is
                  of course the solution. And, in both, it is the team that selects how much
                  they can do. The customer says "what", the team commits to how much of
                  "what" and "how" they will turn the "what" into code.

                  The customer wants to commit a fixed amount of money and get a fixed amount
                  of functionality on a specified date. Just like at Dunkin Donuts, where
                  $2.49 buys 6 donuts right now. A bunch of answers:

                  1. Lay out the functionality and estimate it, just like you were bidding on
                  a fcfd (fixed cost,fixed date) contract using traditional methodologies. Of
                  course you are going to have to absorb some up front cost and effort to do
                  this, and you'll build that cost into the bid/estimate. And prioritize the
                  functionality. Collaborate with the customer that this functionality
                  delivered in this sequence will optimize his ability to get the value, to
                  deliver the vision, to redo the business operation, will deliver the system,
                  that he wants. Tell him that you need the functionality ordered like this
                  because you do iterative development and you want him to confirm that you
                  are on track every iteration. And that you will give him the ability to
                  change the requirements and their priority at the end of every iteration,
                  because you know that his mind will change as he sees the system emerge and
                  because his business conditions will change. And tell him that, in your
                  experience, he will probably get most of the value from just some of the
                  functionality, but you want him in charge of what functionality first. Then
                  start going and collaborate. This is what DSDM does with the premiss that
                  20% of the functionality will deliver 80% of the functionality. The
                  prioritized backlog or stories, projected forward with estimates, becomes
                  the contract bid.

                  2. Same as 1 except only lay out functionality for the first three months of
                  work. Bid the first three months as needed to really get a grasp on some
                  pretty complex requirements and technology. And that at the end of the three
                  months the customer will have the start of their system, potentially a first
                  release to implement, and know if they want to proceed with you and to build
                  the system or not. A proof of concept and engagement, except with real
                  working functionality. Then enter into a collaborative, iteration by
                  iteration (or 3x) contract. And switch the pressure, know that they know how
                  good you are and how you can satisfy their needs. Tell them that you may
                  need a longer committment so you can commit the resources to them.

                  3. Check with Alistair Cockburn and the DSDM people. They bid on a state of
                  Utah contract that was a fcfd rfp, and by using the first approach they
                  changed the way that the state people viewed bidding and contracting and -
                  in the process - may have become the preferred vendor.

                  4. Understand that some customers are such contractual pricks, going after
                  fcfp because they are lazy and don't intend to get involved, that you should
                  walk away because it's a losing proposition (yes, even in these economic
                  times ... remember that grocery stores still need baggers).

                  BTW, I was so pleased when I read one of your last emails and you said that
                  I was a better, better man. Thanks!
                  Ken

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                  Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 9:57 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                  "management" org


                  On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 9:46:28 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                  > Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they
                  can
                  > of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
                  > The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they
                  have
                  > to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
                  > and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
                  > they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the
                  technology
                  > untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
                  > can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.

                  Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by "committing to what they
                  sign up for". Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to
                  see if I understand. These are in the form of statements, but they are
                  really questions:

                  In Scrum, the developers pick from an ordered list of backlog, that
                  is the Backlog Owner says what the priorities are and the team does
                  the top N that they feel they can commit to, based on their
                  assessment of their velocity.

                  In XP, based on existing estimates for stories and on the team's
                  measured velocity, the customer picks stories that s/he next wants
                  to see done. The team signs up for those.

                  Comparing, in Scrum the team commits to the high level goals but not
                  to the details, nor to the how. In XP, the team undertakes to meet
                  the Customer's detailed acceptance tests, but still not to the how,
                  and renegotiates when it appears that they will fall short. XP
                  involves the Customer in the tradeoff decision, while by definition,
                  pardon the term, Scrum does not. (I'll bet that in practice, Scrum
                  teams do commonly go to the owner and offer alternatives when
                  there's tradeoff to be done.)

                  So there's an equivalent amount of real "commitment", I'd say. Now
                  Mike said:

                  > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                  > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                  > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                  > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                  > like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
                  > the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
                  > "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
                  > the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
                  > they can commit to.

                  In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                  and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                  roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                  hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                  will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                  let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                  Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                  do you deal with it?

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda



                  To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Mike Cohn
                  Yes, frequently. I usually try to sell away from that type of situation because I ve seen it go bad too frequently. If you go into something with a fixed date
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
                    Yes, frequently. I usually try to sell away from that type of situation
                    because I've seen it go bad too frequently. If you go into something
                    with a fixed date and a fixed feature set the only things that can
                    change are the quality or the staff size (which will adversely affect
                    the quality, so it's really only quality that suffers).

                    If I'm presenting to a CEO, for example, to take over a project a
                    typical question is "Why should I use you for this project? Company X
                    will guarantee me a delivery date with a defined set of functionality."
                    My answer to that is always: Anyone who guarantees a date and a set of
                    features is either padding his estimate, lying, or both. I could pad my
                    estimate and give you the same thing and take away some of your
                    flexibility at the same time. It all depends on what you want.

                    When I estimate approximately how many sprints a project will take I use
                    a Theory of Constraints / Critical Chain approach (Eli Goldratt). This
                    works really well--not necessarily for creating a Gantt chart I want to
                    use for anything later--but for estimating overall duration. It also
                    helps the team think through dependencies between tasks/stories.
                    Critical Chain works well because it is so compatible with uncertainty.
                    To estimate the project I work with the team to come up with a 50% and a
                    90% estimate for each task. Using those I can figure out the nominal
                    schedule for a project (based on late-start 50% estimates) and I can
                    then add feeding and project buffers. So far, it hasn't failed me in
                    coming up with estimates I can put around Scrum projects. I finished a
                    project this summer where the CEO made us give him a point-estimate
                    (7/13) six months in advance. We finished on time and the team commented
                    how nice it was to have accomplished so much but never have felt
                    inordinately under the gun as on most projects. That same CEO is no
                    longer even asking for estimates--he does lay out aggressive goals for
                    the team but he now has trust in the team to deliver the most they can
                    the fastest they can.

                    --Mike

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                    Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:57 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                    "management" org

                    > In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                    > and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                    > roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                    > hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                    > will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                    > let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                    > Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                    > do you deal with it?

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.