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backlog vs. work breakdown structure

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  • sceptre1067
    This is one of those I think I know but... My boss would like to start using WBS to define projects. I think they re a good idea but from basic research it
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 25, 2005
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      This is one of those I think I know but...

      My boss would like to start using WBS to define projects. I think
      they're a good idea but from basic research it appears they could get
      out of hand (e.g. size, scope, or using them with a customer that uses
      waterfall.)

      Has anybody had to square a WBS with product backlog? Like a said I
      think I know how it could be done (e.g. derive one from the other)
      just want to know what pitfalls and such I should look for.

      Thanks!
      Paul C.
    • Boris Gloger
      Sorry maybe I did not get you. but why do you want to use a Work Breakdown Structure in a Scrum Project? boris
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 25, 2005
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        Sorry maybe I did not get you. but why do you want to use a Work
        Breakdown Structure in a Scrum Project?
        boris


        On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:49:27 -0600, sceptre1067 <pmcomeau@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is one of those I think I know but...
        >
        > My boss would like to start using WBS to define projects. I think
        > they're a good idea but from basic research it appears they could get
        > out of hand (e.g. size, scope, or using them with a customer that uses
        > waterfall.)
        >
        > Has anybody had to square a WBS with product backlog? Like a said I
        > think I know how it could be done (e.g. derive one from the other)
        > just want to know what pitfalls and such I should look for.
        >
        > Thanks!
        > Paul C.
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Mike Dwyer
        Given that the backlog contains owner defined functional needs that Sprints convert into working software and that a WBS is a string of tasks that create a
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 25, 2005
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          Given that the backlog contains owner defined functional needs that Sprints
          convert into working software and that a WBS is a string of tasks that
          create a process to make stuff, I believe you are attempting to compare a
          set of steps with things that need to be built.

          Or for those who loved the analogy section of the SAT's and GRE's

          Backlog is to requirements as SCRUM is to WBS.

          Michael F. Dwyer

          Mike.Dwyer1@...



          -----Original Message-----
          From: sceptre1067 [mailto:pmcomeau@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 3:49 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] backlog vs. work breakdown structure


          This is one of those I think I know but...

          My boss would like to start using WBS to define projects. I think
          they're a good idea but from basic research it appears they could get
          out of hand (e.g. size, scope, or using them with a customer that uses
          waterfall.)

          Has anybody had to square a WBS with product backlog? Like a said I
          think I know how it could be done (e.g. derive one from the other)
          just want to know what pitfalls and such I should look for.

          Thanks!
          Paul C.


          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Dan Rawsthorne
          Check out http://www.netobjectives.com/resources/downloads/ManagingTheWork.pdf, which is an article I Submitted at the Scrum Master Gathering in Boulder, CO,
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 25, 2005
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            Check out
            http://www.netobjectives.com/resources/downloads/ManagingTheWork.pdf, which
            is an article I Submitted at the Scrum Master Gathering in Boulder, CO,
            October 2004. This article shows how introducing a functional Work Breakdown
            Structure and the notion of Earned Business Value into an agile project can
            provide visibility and control for the project manager and customer team.

            Ken liked it...

            Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
            www.netobjectives.com
            DrDan@...
            office: 425-269-8628

            Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without suffering.
            Our mission is to assist software development teams in accomplishing this
            through a combination of training and mentoring.


            -----Original Message-----
            From: sceptre1067 [mailto:pmcomeau@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:49 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] backlog vs. work breakdown structure


            This is one of those I think I know but...

            My boss would like to start using WBS to define projects. I think they're a
            good idea but from basic research it appears they could get out of hand
            (e.g. size, scope, or using them with a customer that uses
            waterfall.)

            Has anybody had to square a WBS with product backlog? Like a said I think I
            know how it could be done (e.g. derive one from the other) just want to know
            what pitfalls and such I should look for.

            Thanks!
            Paul C.


            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
            Yahoo! Groups Links








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          • Mike Dwyer
            Dan: These are the latest PMI definitions for WBS. Work Breakdown Structure 1) A deliverable-oriented grouping of project elements that organizes and defines
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 26, 2005
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              Dan:
              These are the latest PMI definitions for WBS.
              Work Breakdown Structure
              1) A deliverable-oriented grouping of project elements that organizes
              and defines the total work scope of the project. Each descending level
              represents an increasingly detailed definition of the project work. (PMBOK
              2000) A guide to the Project Management Body of Knowledge 2000 Edition 2000
              (PMBOK Guide 2000)
              2) A deliverable-oriented grouping of project elements that organizes
              and defines the total scope of the project. Each descending level
              represents an increasingly detailed definition of the project work.
              (PS-WBS)- Project management Institute Practice for Work Breakdown
              Structures 2001.

              The concern I have with comparing WBS to Backlog is the difference between
              "deliverable-oriented grouping" and Deliverable. IMO this is the same
              difference between pigs and chickens. My reading takes the word 'oriented'
              and sees involvement, not commitment, in delivering.

              However, I believe the term "Deliverable" more closely compares to our term
              of Backlog as its definition states.

              Deliverable: Any measurable, tangible, verifiable outcome, result, or item
              that must be produced to complete a project of a part of a project. Often
              used more narrowly in reference to an external deliverable, which is a
              deliverable that is subject to approval by the project sponsor or customer.
              (PMBOK 2000) (PS-WBS)

              In addition, Deliverable also supports your paper's thoughts on
              decomposition.

              The interesting facet is that deliverables should (again IMO) be expressed
              as Milestones in the WBS and as such they also fit into what Jim Highsmith
              refers to as Stage-Gates in linear views of projects.

              More to the point, by summing up the total resources used to meet a
              milestone deliverable gives rolling cost and as long as we are summing, the
              rolling BV.




              Michael F. Dwyer

              Mike.Dwyer1@...



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Dan Rawsthorne [mailto:DrDan@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:17 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] backlog vs. work breakdown structure


              Check out
              http://www.netobjectives.com/resources/downloads/ManagingTheWork.pdf, which
              is an article I Submitted at the Scrum Master Gathering in Boulder, CO,
              October 2004. This article shows how introducing a functional Work Breakdown
              Structure and the notion of Earned Business Value into an agile project can
              provide visibility and control for the project manager and customer team.

              Ken liked it...

              Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
              www.netobjectives.com
              DrDan@...
              office: 425-269-8628

              Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without suffering.
              Our mission is to assist software development teams in accomplishing this
              through a combination of training and mentoring.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: sceptre1067 [mailto:pmcomeau@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:49 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] backlog vs. work breakdown structure


              This is one of those I think I know but...

              My boss would like to start using WBS to define projects. I think they're a
              good idea but from basic research it appears they could get out of hand
              (e.g. size, scope, or using them with a customer that uses
              waterfall.)

              Has anybody had to square a WBS with product backlog? Like a said I think I
              know how it could be done (e.g. derive one from the other) just want to know
              what pitfalls and such I should look for.

              Thanks!
              Paul C.


              To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
              Yahoo! Groups Links








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            • sceptre1067
              Thanks all this is helping to clarify some ideas... Boris: To clarify I would like to break the project down into stories and deliverables to the customer. In
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 26, 2005
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                Thanks all this is helping to clarify some ideas...

                Boris:
                To clarify I would like to break the project down into stories and
                deliverables to the customer. In other words a standard backlog and
                sprints. But my boss likes WBS and thinks they are quite useful. So...
                I was looking for a way to link the two and wondering what pitfalls
                there are.

                Mike:
                Thanks for the warning the PMI version vs. Scrum. I was feeling
                uncomfortable as the boss was using a WBS to help a client redefine
                their development 'process'. It helped the client yet... To me it
                still felt like there was no involvement (e.g. take the clients
                process and rewrite it into a nice looking WBS, yet I didn't see a way
                to improve things for the developers, and/or delivery of actual
                functionality to the customer.)

                Dan:
                Thanks for the article I'll read it today.

                I have a small project I'm going to try to create a backlog and then a
                WBS from that and see how it goes. Luckily it is a team of two (me and
                a coworker, who has excellent knowledge of the system, in addition the
                customer is involved, so I don't see any major hurdles, yet.)
              • David A Barrett
                I liked Dan s article. I did notice this definition of the PB: “an evolving, prioritized queue of business and technical functionality that needs to be
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 26, 2005
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                  I liked Dan's article. I did notice this definition of the PB:

                  “an evolving, prioritized queue of business and
                  technical functionality that needs to be developed
                  into a system.”

                  To me, the key word here is "evolving", and this is where I start to see
                  problems with WBS when used with Scrum. WBS tends to be a static artifact
                  that is produced at the start of a waterfall style project, and is a key
                  component in determining scope and for planning the project. Think about
                  operations like "critical path analysis", to see what I mean.
                  Traditionally, a WBS is not really considered an "evolving" element of the
                  project.

                  My first, knee-jerk reaction to this thread was to reject the idea of using
                  a WBS with a scrum project all together. After reading Dan's very clear
                  article, however, I have to admit that a WBS has the substantial advantage
                  of visually organizing the elements of a project in a manner from which
                  both customers and developers alike can benefit.

                  I think, to make a WBS a useful part of Scrum, you would need to find a way
                  to ensure that its evolving nature is apparent to everyone. Perhaps using
                  a new term, something like "Scrum Hierarchial Backlog", or "Scrum Backlog
                  Structure" would be a good start. Then you'd need to make a review of the
                  chart an integral part of each Sprint Review. Maybe you could colour code
                  the chart, with green for completed items, red for high priority (front
                  burner) items, yellow for lower priority (back burner) and blue for lowest
                  priority (fridge) items. The review process could go something like this:

                  1. Update completed items to green.
                  2. Integrate new PB items into the chart; establishing time estimates
                  (costs) and priorities.
                  3. Review time estimates for all red and yellow items on the chart.
                  4. Confirm priority colours on chart.
                  5. Establish the Sprint Backlog for the next Sprint.

                  I'm going to seriously think about trying this in the near future. It
                  looks like it has potential.

                  I would resist the urge to perform analysis of depenancies, and critical
                  path analysis on the WBS in a Scrum environment. This starts to assume
                  that the WBS will be a static artifact.


                  Dave Barrett,
                  Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                • brentbarton
                  Dave Barrett said ... find a way ... Perhaps using ... Backlog ... review of the ... colour code ... (front ... for lowest ... A follow up effort using Dan s
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 27, 2005
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                    Dave Barrett said

                    > I think, to make a WBS a useful part of Scrum, you would need to
                    find a way
                    > to ensure that its evolving nature is apparent to everyone.
                    Perhaps using
                    > a new term, something like "Scrum Hierarchial Backlog", or "Scrum
                    Backlog
                    > Structure" would be a good start. Then you'd need to make a
                    review of the
                    > chart an integral part of each Sprint Review. Maybe you could
                    colour code
                    > the chart, with green for completed items, red for high priority
                    (front
                    > burner) items, yellow for lower priority (back burner) and blue
                    for lowest
                    > priority (fridge) items.

                    A follow up effort using Dan's WBS can be found at
                    http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html. This is an application
                    of the WBS in a product backlog with the purpose of providing a
                    vehicle for executive reporting. There is a pdf and an excel
                    spreadhseet that has been extended. See if this addresses some of
                    you thoughts.

                    Brent Barton
                  • brentbarton
                    The link added the period. try this http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html ... or Scrum
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 27, 2005
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                      The link added the period. try this

                      http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "brentbarton"
                      <bbarton@s...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave Barrett said
                      >
                      > > I think, to make a WBS a useful part of Scrum, you would need to
                      > find a way
                      > > to ensure that its evolving nature is apparent to everyone.
                      > Perhaps using
                      > > a new term, something like "Scrum Hierarchial Backlog",
                      or "Scrum
                      > Backlog
                      > > Structure" would be a good start. Then you'd need to make a
                      > review of the
                      > > chart an integral part of each Sprint Review. Maybe you could
                      > colour code
                      > > the chart, with green for completed items, red for high priority
                      > (front
                      > > burner) items, yellow for lower priority (back burner) and blue
                      > for lowest
                      > > priority (fridge) items.
                      >
                      > A follow up effort using Dan's WBS can be found at
                      > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html. This is an application
                      > of the WBS in a product backlog with the purpose of providing a
                      > vehicle for executive reporting. There is a pdf and an excel
                      > spreadhseet that has been extended. See if this addresses some of
                      > you thoughts.
                      >
                      > Brent Barton
                    • dan mcdonnell
                      Currently my team is struggling with the level of detail to capture in a plan for the Sprint. Does anyone have an example of an entire Sprint project plan in
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 2, 2005
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                        Currently my team is struggling with the level of
                        detail to capture in a plan for the Sprint. Does
                        anyone have an example of an entire Sprint project
                        plan in either excel or project? I would appreciate
                        if I could get some insight into the level of detail
                        that was captured. Thanks
                        --- brentbarton <bbarton@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > The link added the period. try this
                        >
                        > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html
                        >
                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com,
                        > "brentbarton"
                        > <bbarton@s...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dave Barrett said
                        > >
                        > > > I think, to make a WBS a useful part of Scrum,
                        > you would need to
                        > > find a way
                        > > > to ensure that its evolving nature is apparent
                        > to everyone.
                        > > Perhaps using
                        > > > a new term, something like "Scrum Hierarchial
                        > Backlog",
                        > or "Scrum
                        > > Backlog
                        > > > Structure" would be a good start. Then you'd
                        > need to make a
                        > > review of the
                        > > > chart an integral part of each Sprint Review.
                        > Maybe you could
                        > > colour code
                        > > > the chart, with green for completed items, red
                        > for high priority
                        > > (front
                        > > > burner) items, yellow for lower priority (back
                        > burner) and blue
                        > > for lowest
                        > > > priority (fridge) items.
                        > >
                        > > A follow up effort using Dan's WBS can be found at
                        >
                        > > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html. This
                        > is an application
                        > > of the WBS in a product backlog with the purpose
                        > of providing a
                        > > vehicle for executive reporting. There is a pdf
                        > and an excel
                        > > spreadhseet that has been extended. See if this
                        > addresses some of
                        > > you thoughts.
                        > >
                        > > Brent Barton
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • Mike Cohn
                        Dan-- Take a look at slide 19 in the Redistributable Intro to Scrum presentation on my site at http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/presentations.php That is
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 2, 2005
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                          Dan--
                          Take a look at slide 19 in the "Redistributable Intro to Scrum" presentation
                          on my site at http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/presentations.php That is
                          a screen shot of an actual sprint backlog in Excel on a real project. My
                          guideline is that items are typically 1-16 hours in length on the sprint
                          backlog.

                          --Mike Cohn
                          Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                          www.mountaingoatsoftware.com


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: dan mcdonnell [mailto:bmi_dmcd@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:43 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: backlog vs. work breakdown structure


                          Currently my team is struggling with the level of
                          detail to capture in a plan for the Sprint. Does
                          anyone have an example of an entire Sprint project
                          plan in either excel or project? I would appreciate
                          if I could get some insight into the level of detail
                          that was captured. Thanks
                          --- brentbarton <bbarton@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > The link added the period. try this
                          >
                          > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html
                          >
                          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com,
                          > "brentbarton"
                          > <bbarton@s...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dave Barrett said
                          > >
                          > > > I think, to make a WBS a useful part of Scrum,
                          > you would need to
                          > > find a way
                          > > > to ensure that its evolving nature is apparent
                          > to everyone.
                          > > Perhaps using
                          > > > a new term, something like "Scrum Hierarchial
                          > Backlog",
                          > or "Scrum
                          > > Backlog
                          > > > Structure" would be a good start. Then you'd
                          > need to make a
                          > > review of the
                          > > > chart an integral part of each Sprint Review.
                          > Maybe you could
                          > > colour code
                          > > > the chart, with green for completed items, red
                          > for high priority
                          > > (front
                          > > > burner) items, yellow for lower priority (back
                          > burner) and blue
                          > > for lowest
                          > > > priority (fridge) items.
                          > >
                          > > A follow up effort using Dan's WBS can be found at
                          >
                          > > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html. This
                          > is an application
                          > > of the WBS in a product backlog with the purpose
                          > of providing a
                          > > vehicle for executive reporting. There is a pdf
                          > and an excel
                          > > spreadhseet that has been extended. See if this
                          > addresses some of
                          > > you thoughts.
                          > >
                          > > Brent Barton
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                        • todd
                          Very nice. Thanks.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 3, 2005
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                            Very nice. Thanks.

                            Mike Cohn wrote:

                            > Dan--
                            > Take a look at slide 19 in the "Redistributable Intro to Scrum"
                            > presentation
                            > on my site at http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/presentations.php
                            > That is
                            > a screen shot of an actual sprint backlog in Excel on a real project. My
                            > guideline is that items are typically 1-16 hours in length on the sprint
                            > backlog.
                            >
                            > --Mike Cohn
                            > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                            > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: dan mcdonnell [mailto:bmi_dmcd@...]
                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:43 PM
                            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: backlog vs. work breakdown structure
                            >
                            >
                            > Currently my team is struggling with the level of
                            > detail to capture in a plan for the Sprint. Does
                            > anyone have an example of an entire Sprint project
                            > plan in either excel or project? I would appreciate
                            > if I could get some insight into the level of detail
                            > that was captured. Thanks
                            > --- brentbarton <bbarton@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > The link added the period. try this
                            > >
                            > > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html
                            > >
                            > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com,
                            > > "brentbarton"
                            > > <bbarton@s...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Dave Barrett said
                            > > >
                            > > > > I think, to make a WBS a useful part of Scrum,
                            > > you would need to
                            > > > find a way
                            > > > > to ensure that its evolving nature is apparent
                            > > to everyone.
                            > > > Perhaps using
                            > > > > a new term, something like "Scrum Hierarchial
                            > > Backlog",
                            > > or "Scrum
                            > > > Backlog
                            > > > > Structure" would be a good start. Then you'd
                            > > need to make a
                            > > > review of the
                            > > > > chart an integral part of each Sprint Review.
                            > > Maybe you could
                            > > > colour code
                            > > > > the chart, with green for completed items, red
                            > > for high priority
                            > > > (front
                            > > > > burner) items, yellow for lower priority (back
                            > > burner) and blue
                            > > > for lowest
                            > > > > priority (fridge) items.
                            > > >
                            > > > A follow up effort using Dan's WBS can be found at
                            > >
                            > > > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html. This
                            > > is an application
                            > > > of the WBS in a product backlog with the purpose
                            > > of providing a
                            > > > vehicle for executive reporting. There is a pdf
                            > > and an excel
                            > > > spreadhseet that has been extended. See if this
                            > > addresses some of
                            > > > you thoughts.
                            > > >
                            > > > Brent Barton
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • David Laffineuse
                            Actually I would expect that the team should determine the level of detail that they need in order to organize themselves and meet the Sprint target. Whether
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 3, 2005
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                              Actually I would expect that the team should determine the level of detail
                              that they need in order to organize themselves and meet the Sprint target.
                              Whether they need a few lines on a white board or a 200 task Microsoft
                              Project plan should be up to them.
                              At the very least I would recommend an understanding of who does what, what
                              do they need from others to do their work (inputs), and a clear
                              understanding of 'done' (outputs). Once again that can take many forms...

                              ____________________
                              David Laffineuse
                              laffineuse@...
                              Skype 'laffineuse'


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: dan mcdonnell [mailto:bmi_dmcd@...]
                              Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:43 PM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: backlog vs. work breakdown structure



                              Currently my team is struggling with the level of
                              detail to capture in a plan for the Sprint. Does
                              anyone have an example of an entire Sprint project
                              plan in either excel or project? I would appreciate
                              if I could get some insight into the level of detail
                              that was captured. Thanks
                              --- brentbarton <bbarton@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > The link added the period. try this
                              >
                              > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html
                              >
                              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com,
                              > "brentbarton"
                              > <bbarton@s...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Dave Barrett said
                              > >
                              > > > I think, to make a WBS a useful part of Scrum,
                              > you would need to
                              > > find a way
                              > > > to ensure that its evolving nature is apparent
                              > to everyone.
                              > > Perhaps using
                              > > > a new term, something like "Scrum Hierarchial
                              > Backlog",
                              > or "Scrum
                              > > Backlog
                              > > > Structure" would be a good start. Then you'd
                              > need to make a
                              > > review of the
                              > > > chart an integral part of each Sprint Review.
                              > Maybe you could
                              > > colour code
                              > > > the chart, with green for completed items, red
                              > for high priority
                              > > (front
                              > > > burner) items, yellow for lower priority (back
                              > burner) and blue
                              > > for lowest
                              > > > priority (fridge) items.
                              > >
                              > > A follow up effort using Dan's WBS can be found at
                              >
                              > > http://www.solutionsiq.com/pbs/scrum.html. This
                              > is an application
                              > > of the WBS in a product backlog with the purpose
                              > of providing a
                              > > vehicle for executive reporting. There is a pdf
                              > and an excel
                              > > spreadhseet that has been extended. See if this
                              > addresses some of
                              > > you thoughts.
                              > >
                              > > Brent Barton
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >




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