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RE: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In

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  • Lowell Lindstrom
    Thanks for the feedback Ken and Tom. We ll certainly use it to improve it. Lowell ==================== Lowell Lindstrom Object Mentor, Inc |
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 4, 2002
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      Thanks for the feedback Ken and Tom. We'll certainly use it to improve it.

      Lowell

      ====================
      Lowell Lindstrom
      Object Mentor, Inc | www.objectmentor.com | 1-800-338-6716
      lindstrom@...
    • Ward Cunningham
      ... Sure. Suppose some powerful commercial interest subverted the real social initiative behind our manifesto through look-alike practices that programmers had
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 7, 2002
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        > > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?
        >
        > Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
        > principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
        > for XP and agile?

        Sure. Suppose some powerful commercial interest subverted the real
        social initiative behind our manifesto through look-alike practices that
        programmers had to pay to use and that whose continued evolution comes
        from the marketing department of said interest, not real programmers.

        > For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable person would
        > actually do that meets those criteria?

        Ok, imagine the interest is Microsoft and the doing is a job in a down market.

        I certainly don't mean to criticize the work that launched this thread.
        I'm only answering a rhetorical question. The answer depends on what we
        mean by "good for xp and agile" as opposed to good for the consumers
        involved. Best to all. -- Ward

        --
        Ward Cunningham
        v 503-245-5633 mailto:ward@...
        f 503-246-5587 http://c2.com/
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... If this powerful commercial interest actually exposed people the the values and principles, and got them trying the practices, how would that be bad for XP
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 7, 2002
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          On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:39:28 AM, Ward Cunningham wrote:

          >> Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the values and
          >> principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
          >> for XP and agile?

          > Sure. Suppose some powerful commercial interest subverted the real
          > social initiative behind our manifesto through look-alike practices that
          > programmers had to pay to use and that whose continued evolution comes
          > from the marketing department of said interest, not real programmers.

          If this powerful commercial interest actually exposed people the the
          values and principles, and got them trying the practices, how would
          that be bad for XP and agile?

          Are you saying that people might listen to the powerful commercial
          interest even in the presence of understanding of the values,
          principles, and practices?

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
          - Gandhi
        • Laurent Bossavit
          ... You seem to be saying that understanding will necessarily follow exposure. Cheers, -[Morendil]- The greatest obstacle to transforming the world is that we
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 7, 2002
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            Ron:

            > If this powerful commercial interest actually exposed people the the
            > values and principles, and got them trying the practices, how would
            > that be bad for XP and agile?
            >
            > Are you saying that people might listen to the powerful commercial
            > interest even in the presence of understanding of the values,
            > principles, and practices?

            You seem to be saying that understanding will necessarily follow
            exposure.

            Cheers,

            -[Morendil]-
            The greatest obstacle to transforming the world is that we lack the
            clarity and imagination to conceive that it could be different.
            Roberto Mangabeira Unger
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... I think that understanding is /more likely/ to follow exposure than it is to follow without exposure. And that it is /far/ more likely to follow if they
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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              On Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 2:26:15 AM, Laurent Bossavit wrote:

              >> If this powerful commercial interest actually exposed people the the
              >> values and principles, and got them trying the practices, how would
              >> that be bad for XP and agile?
              >>
              >> Are you saying that people might listen to the powerful commercial
              >> interest even in the presence of understanding of the values,
              >> principles, and practices?

              > You seem to be saying that understanding will necessarily follow
              > exposure.

              I think that understanding is /more likely/ to follow exposure than it
              is to follow without exposure. And that it is /far/ more likely to
              follow if they actually try the practices.

              That's why I supported putting the XP values and practices into RUP,
              and chose to be involved in the effort. So that the values and
              practices could be made as clear as possible. Now, we badly need the
              community's help in figuring out how to make it more clear.

              Does that make sense?

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              It is not the strongest of the species that survive, not the most intelligent,
              but the one most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin
            • Lowell Lindstrom
              ... From what I see, that is the status quo with XP. The current literature does not prevent this. In that sense, I do not expect the Plug-In to have any
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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                >
                > My comment that this will be "bad for XP" was because I think it will
                > cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn't
                > work for them.

                From what I see, that is the status quo with XP. The current literature
                does not prevent this. In that sense, I do not expect the Plug-In to have
                any real effect on that problem. We would like it to have a positive
                effect.

                But there in lies the challenge and I think a more interesting topic:

                How can we improve the way that we communicate this stuff in print so that
                people do not see it as a cookbook?

                For example, if in fact we are constrained to a presentation that includes
                "Inputs" and "Outputs", what could we put in those cells to we reinforce
                that we would rather not communicate it that way.

                We did a complete revamp of the Plug-In prior to release with that in mind
                (believe it or not ;-). And we clearly need to do it again. I would
                really be interested in some suggestions. Have the SCRUM books and
                articles achieved this? Are there teams succeeding with SCRUM just from
                the book? I am sure that there are many. Are there teams that have failed
                with SCRUM from the book because they implemented it without emergence and
                self-organization?

                Thanks,

                Lowell
                lindstrom@...
              • Lowell Lindstrom
                ... Given the ease, please share. ... I have been involved in at least 6 of these top-down deployments of XP, in organizations from 30 to 3000 people. All
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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                  > From: "Laurent Bossavit" <laurent@...>
                  >
                  > > > When you say "anything", do you really mean *anything* ?
                  > >
                  > > Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the
                  > values and
                  > > principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is not good
                  > > for XP and agile?
                  >
                  > Yes. Easily.

                  Given the ease, please share.

                  >
                  > > For extra credit, can you think of anything a reasonable
                  > person would actually do that meets those criteria?
                  >
                  > Yeah. A reasonable manager might be swayed by (say) the RUP XP plug-
                  > in, and (not meaning any harm) instruct his subordinates "You *will*
                  > use XP on all projects henceforth. Here, this CD-ROM has what you
                  > need to succeed."
                  >
                  > Bitter personal experience suggests that such an approach might leave
                  > some people *less* inclined to consider agile process than they were
                  > previously.


                  I have been involved in at least 6 of these top-down deployments of XP, in
                  organizations from 30 to 3000 people. All pre-date the Plug-In and were
                  "swayed" by "Explained." In these 6 cases, we were brought in to help. I
                  have heard of other cases where the manager said, "Here, this book has what
                  you need to succeed" and no additional help was given.

                  So, again, (and sorry for the redundancy), I do not expect the Plug-In to
                  change the status quo, unfortunately. What I would like is for the Plug-In
                  to change that in a positive way. The feedback here so far tells me we
                  have not come close to achieving that. We'll work on that. Any suggestions
                  are welcome. What could be on that CD-ROM that would make your story a
                  positive example?

                  In terms of a top-down approach, in the cases I am aware of, all of the
                  groups are still doing XP or their adaptation. In all cases, you can find
                  some that are bitter. In all cases, you can find some that are thrilled.
                  In all cases, there have been unqualified project successes. In many cases,
                  there have been unqualified project failures. XP is not the determining
                  variable, nor is the means they used to learn it. These are people going
                  through a significant change in work practices and values.
                • Lowell Lindstrom
                  ... not good ... evolution comes ... Ward, I agree this is a chilling example. Fortunately, due to perspective of you and the other leaders, I think it would
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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                    > From: Ward Cunningham <ward@...>
                    > Subject: Re: RUP XP Plug-In
                    >
                    >
                    > > Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the
                    > > values and principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that is
                    not good
                    > > for XP and agile?
                    >
                    > Sure. Suppose some powerful commercial interest subverted the real
                    > social initiative behind our manifesto through look-alike
                    > practices that programmers had to pay to use and that whose continued
                    evolution comes
                    > from the marketing department of said interest, not real programmers.
                    >
                    >

                    Ward, I agree this is a chilling example. Fortunately, due to perspective
                    of you and the other leaders, I think it would be very difficult to succeed
                    with a set of practices that you had to pay for.

                    The practices without the social initiative a tougher challenge in my mind.
                    It seems the social initiative is not being transferred through a mass form
                    of communication, but rather a slower rippling evolution of face to face
                    dialog. Every culture is slightly different and every team has a culture
                    all of its own. I have still never actually seen a team that openly
                    discusses values at its formation or along its project (I have heard of
                    some). I was at a client recently with an experienced development manager.
                    He was describing a number of agile projects that he had done in the past.
                    These were successful projects that had overcome some significant
                    challenges. They were planned iteratively. But, not once did he mention
                    values and there was a clear command-control flavor to the discussion. I
                    suspect that most of us would not accept that these were agile projects. He
                    is very supportive of their move to XP, but due to the practices. It will
                    take some time for the values to become guiding, but there is early evidence
                    that they will.

                    This ability to communicate the social initiative along side the practices
                    in non-verbal form seems to be elusive at this point.
                  • Ken Schwaber
                    Lowell, Excellent question. Given the media and structure of RUP, how can an agile process such as XP and Scrum be presented so the values are understood and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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                      Lowell,
                      Excellent question. Given the media and structure of RUP, how can an agile
                      process such as XP and Scrum be presented so the values are understood and
                      become the driving force for customizing the process and driving the
                      projects. I'll give it some thought. How can XP and Scrum be expressed as a
                      methodology? Grady Booch talked about this when he said that he had the
                      values in mind at the start of RUP, but when you drive it down into the
                      detail the values are hard to detect (paraphrase).
                      Ken

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:30 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In


                      >
                      > My comment that this will be "bad for XP" was because I think it will
                      > cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn't
                      > work for them.

                      From what I see, that is the status quo with XP. The current literature
                      does not prevent this. In that sense, I do not expect the Plug-In to have
                      any real effect on that problem. We would like it to have a positive
                      effect.

                      But there in lies the challenge and I think a more interesting topic:

                      How can we improve the way that we communicate this stuff in print so that
                      people do not see it as a cookbook?

                      For example, if in fact we are constrained to a presentation that includes
                      "Inputs" and "Outputs", what could we put in those cells to we reinforce
                      that we would rather not communicate it that way.

                      We did a complete revamp of the Plug-In prior to release with that in mind
                      (believe it or not ;-). And we clearly need to do it again. I would
                      really be interested in some suggestions. Have the SCRUM books and
                      articles achieved this? Are there teams succeeding with SCRUM just from
                      the book? I am sure that there are many. Are there teams that have failed
                      with SCRUM from the book because they implemented it without emergence and
                      self-organization?

                      Thanks,

                      Lowell
                      lindstrom@...


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                    • Mike Cohn
                      Lowell-- I took the discussion to be more general than one implying a list of specific deficiencies with the Plugin. This is in much the same way you ve
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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                        Lowell--

                        I took the discussion to be more general than one implying a list of
                        specific deficiencies with the Plugin. This is in much the same way
                        you've pointed out deficiencies with books. Both the plugin and books
                        are great ways to communicate information but as we all know they are
                        not the ideal way to teach. Ideally every team would hire an external
                        Scrum or XP coach (or DSDM or FDD or whatever) and learn that way. Since
                        that's impractical they rely on books and things like the Plugin. In
                        that regard I think the Plugin is great. I own every book on XP and if
                        the Plugin cost the same as a book I'd buy it too--just for the
                        knowledge I'd gain. Personally, I have no specific suggestions on the
                        Plugin--I suspect, as with everything else I'm aware of from
                        ObjectMentor, you guys have done an excellent job. No matter how many
                        more times you revamp it or improve it though there will always be some
                        managers or teams who misinterpret or misapply it. That's true of XP in
                        books, CDs, video training, etc--anything but the onsite coach.

                        You raise an interesting question about whether people are and can be
                        successful with Scrum just from Ken's and Mike's book. That got me
                        thinking for a few minutes and as a Scrummie who adds in a dash of XP
                        into his projects here's my hypothesis:

                        Because Scrum doesn't lay out a bunch of practices (e.g., pair
                        programming, refactoring, simple design) I think people either
                        understand Scrum or they don't. People are therefore unlikely to adopt
                        just a few pieces of Scrum and still call it Scrum. XP requires a huge
                        paradigm shift (truly as Kuhn describes it) but I think it's easy for
                        people to miss that. I have talked to a handful of managers who think
                        they can pursue their usual Gantt chart-driven processes loaded up front
                        with a bunch of analysis work and then add their favorite XP practices.
                        Despite everyone saying "use all these practices" it is just too darn
                        easy for people to look at XP as a Chinese menu. Please be aware I don't
                        mean that in any derogatory way toward XP--I am only suggesting it is a
                        challenge to the spread of XP into many companies.

                        --Mike



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:30 AM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In

                        >
                        > My comment that this will be "bad for XP" was because I think it will
                        > cause lots of companies to experiment with XP and find that it doesn't
                        > work for them.

                        >From what I see, that is the status quo with XP. The current
                        literature
                        does not prevent this. In that sense, I do not expect the Plug-In to
                        have
                        any real effect on that problem. We would like it to have a positive
                        effect.

                        But there in lies the challenge and I think a more interesting topic:

                        How can we improve the way that we communicate this stuff in print so
                        that
                        people do not see it as a cookbook?

                        For example, if in fact we are constrained to a presentation that
                        includes
                        "Inputs" and "Outputs", what could we put in those cells to we reinforce
                        that we would rather not communicate it that way.

                        We did a complete revamp of the Plug-In prior to release with that in
                        mind
                        (believe it or not ;-). And we clearly need to do it again. I would
                        really be interested in some suggestions. Have the SCRUM books and
                        articles achieved this? Are there teams succeeding with SCRUM just
                        from
                        the book? I am sure that there are many. Are there teams that have
                        failed
                        with SCRUM from the book because they implemented it without emergence
                        and
                        self-organization?

                        Thanks,

                        Lowell
                        lindstrom@...


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                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

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                      • Mike Cohn
                        I believe Ward owns a patent on pair programming and after an initial period of giving it away for free to get us addicted he is going to start charging us for
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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                          I believe Ward owns a patent on pair programming and after an initial
                          period of giving it away for free to get us addicted he is going to
                          start charging us for it.

                          On a similar vein: How long until Microsoft decides to double the price
                          of Visual Studio since they know each copy is being used by two
                          programmers?

                          --Mike

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Lowell Lindstrom [mailto:lindstrom@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:30 AM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE:[scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In

                          > From: Ward Cunningham <ward@...>
                          > Subject: Re: RUP XP Plug-In
                          >
                          >
                          > > Can you think of something that gets people exposed to the
                          > > values and principles, and gets them trying the practices, but that
                          is
                          not good
                          > > for XP and agile?
                          >
                          > Sure. Suppose some powerful commercial interest subverted the real
                          > social initiative behind our manifesto through look-alike
                          > practices that programmers had to pay to use and that whose continued
                          evolution comes
                          > from the marketing department of said interest, not real programmers.
                          >
                          >

                          Ward, I agree this is a chilling example. Fortunately, due to
                          perspective
                          of you and the other leaders, I think it would be very difficult to
                          succeed
                          with a set of practices that you had to pay for.

                          The practices without the social initiative a tougher challenge in my
                          mind.
                          It seems the social initiative is not being transferred through a mass
                          form
                          of communication, but rather a slower rippling evolution of face to face
                          dialog. Every culture is slightly different and every team has a
                          culture
                          all of its own. I have still never actually seen a team that openly
                          discusses values at its formation or along its project (I have heard of
                          some). I was at a client recently with an experienced development
                          manager.
                          He was describing a number of agile projects that he had done in the
                          past.
                          These were successful projects that had overcome some significant
                          challenges. They were planned iteratively. But, not once did he
                          mention
                          values and there was a clear command-control flavor to the discussion.
                          I
                          suspect that most of us would not accept that these were agile projects.
                          He
                          is very supportive of their move to XP, but due to the practices. It
                          will
                          take some time for the values to become guiding, but there is early
                          evidence
                          that they will.

                          This ability to communicate the social initiative along side the
                          practices
                          in non-verbal form seems to be elusive at this point.


                          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Amit Banerji
                          Petition to US Supreme Court is the only hope! Good ideas, like good people, often finish last. Just having a bad day. -Amit ... From: Laurent Bossavit
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 8, 2002
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                            Petition to US Supreme Court is the only hope! Good ideas, like good people,
                            often finish last.

                            Just having a bad day.

                            -Amit
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Laurent Bossavit" <laurent@...>
                            To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 2:26 AM
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] RUP XP Plug-In


                            > Ron:
                            >
                            > > If this powerful commercial interest actually exposed people the the
                            > > values and principles, and got them trying the practices, how would
                            > > that be bad for XP and agile?
                            > >
                            > > Are you saying that people might listen to the powerful commercial
                            > > interest even in the presence of understanding of the values,
                            > > principles, and practices?
                            >
                            > You seem to be saying that understanding will necessarily follow
                            > exposure.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            >
                            > -[Morendil]-
                            > The greatest obstacle to transforming the world is that we lack the
                            > clarity and imagination to conceive that it could be different.
                            > Roberto Mangabeira Unger
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
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