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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

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  • Mike Beedle
    The other alternative is to kick out the offenders from the list and block them from further access. We do this all the time in our servers -- block offending
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      The other alternative is to kick out the offenders from the list and block them from further access.
       
      We do this all the time in our servers -- block offending domains and users,
       
      mb
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:05 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

      Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

      Hi Ken,

       

      The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

       

      Peter

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

       

      Peter,

      How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

      Ken

      -----Original Message-----
      From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
      Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
      To: scrum@...
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

      * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

      scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

       

      Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
      Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

       

      Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

       

      I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
      Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

       

      I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
      the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
      change.

      Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
      for AgileAlliance to host?)

      But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
      would give it an energy boost.

      /Jonas

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
      > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
      >
      >
      > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
      > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
      > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
      > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
      > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
      > host?
      >
      >
      > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
      >
      > Ken Schwaber
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

       


      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

       



      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    • Mike Beedle
      To get rid of the adds one of us may sponsor the e-group (like Object Mentor does with the extreme-programming group), or a group of us can chip in to sponsor
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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        To get rid of the adds one of us may sponsor the e-group (like Object Mentor does with
        the extreme-programming group), or a group of us can chip in to sponsor it.  I have no
        clue what is the sponsoring fee, btw.   Does anyone know?
         
        mb
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:27 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

        The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads—so probably not worth a change.

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:05 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

         

        Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

        Hi Ken,

         

        The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

         

        Peter

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

         

        Peter,

        How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

        Ken

        -----Original Message-----
        From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
        Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
        To: scrum@...
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

        * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

        scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

         

        Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

         

        Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

         

        I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

         

        I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
        the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
        change.

        Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
        for AgileAlliance to host?)

        But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
        would give it an energy boost.

        /Jonas

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
        > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
        >
        >
        > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
        > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
        > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
        > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
        > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
        > host?
        >
        >
        > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
        >
        > Ken Schwaber
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

         


        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

         



        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

         



        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Ken Schwaber
        I ve looked at everything that was suggested and liked Mary s suggestion the best. It s at http://www.email-publisher.com/signup/index.html . My company will
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          I've looked at everything that was suggested and liked Mary's suggestion the best. It's at http://www.email-publisher.com/signup/index.html . My company will pay the fees for it being ad free if most of you think it's a good alternative to egroups. Let me know.
          Ken 
           
           Message-----
          From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:27 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

          The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads—so probably not worth a change.

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:05 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

           

          Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

          Hi Ken,

           

          The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

           

          Peter

           

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

           

          Peter,

          How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

          Ken

          -----Original Message-----
          From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
          Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
          To: scrum@...
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

          * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

          scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

           

          Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

           

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
          Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

           

          Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

           

          I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
          Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

           

          I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
          the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
          change.

          Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
          for AgileAlliance to host?)

          But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
          would give it an energy boost.

          /Jonas

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
          > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
          >
          >
          > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
          > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
          > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
          > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
          > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
          > host?
          >
          >
          > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
          >
          > Ken Schwaber
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

           


          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

           



          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

           



          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Mike Cohn
          It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don t bother me very much because I use email rather than the web for this group. ... From: Ken Schwaber
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment

            It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don’t bother me very much because I use email rather than the web for this group.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:42 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            I've looked at everything that was suggested and liked Mary's suggestion the best. It's at http://www.email-publisher.com/signup/index.html . My company will pay the fees for it being ad free if most of you think it's a good alternative to egroups. Let me know.

            Ken 

             

             Message-----
            From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:27 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

            The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads—so probably not worth a change.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:05 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

            Hi Ken,

             

            The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

             

            Peter

             

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            Peter,

            How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

            Ken

            -----Original Message-----
            From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
            Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
            To: scrum@...
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

            * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

            scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

             

            Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

             

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
            Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

             

            I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
            Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
            the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
            change.

            Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
            for AgileAlliance to host?)

            But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
            would give it an energy boost.

            /Jonas

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
            > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
            >
            >
            > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
            > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
            > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
            > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
            > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
            > host?
            >
            >
            > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
            >
            > Ken Schwaber
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

             


            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

             



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

             



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

             



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Mary Poppendieck
            I am a member of a dozen or so Yahoo discussion groups, and I always choose to get a digest instead of e-mails, and then I use the web interface if the digest
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 4, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              I am a member of a dozen or so Yahoo discussion groups, and I always
              choose to get a digest instead of e-mails, and then I use the web
              interface if the digest is interesting. One thing Yahoo can do that
              Topica can't is allow file posting. I don't like the Yahoo web
              interface, but I'm used to it. I prefer Topica, but can live with
              Yahoo.

              What is our problem – the web interface or the junk e-mail? I
              administer a Yahoo group for our bike club and I have complete
              control over who can join and post messages. There are varying
              levels of control, all easy to set up and administer.

              Mary Poppendieck
              www.leanprogramming.com
            • Dan Brown
              I assume everyone in the list followed this comment, but it is worth repeating. Yahoo Groups has a nice digest feature; no advertisements (except for the
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                I assume everyone in the list followed this comment, but it is worth
                repeating. Yahoo Groups has a nice digest feature; no advertisements
                (except for the people who SP~M the group), and the one daily e-mail
                makes for a quick read to scan for what is interesting.

                As the saying goes, "and now for something completely different."

                I would love to get feedback from those with some experience in a
                management-centric environment on how to get some traction with
                Agile. Here's the current situation: I've introduced a slight
                variation of scrum that is only within our development group (we are
                basically handed a product backlog that does not change at the
                beginning of development). While scrum is not quite ubiquitous on
                teams, it is fairly well received within development, but there are a
                couple challenges to becoming truly agile.

                First, as I mentioned, we tend to be a management-centric group, so
                it's been a challenge for the leadership to let go of the reigns a
                bit and also for a lot of the development team to grab on and drive.
                Second, we deliver to external customers, so our marketing team, I
                think, would be our closest proxy for "the customer" but I haven't
                yet successfully engaged them in the process. Finally, if we can
                successfully engage the rest of the business, I need a better
                understanding of how we expand the scope from software deliveries at
                the end of each sprint, to a complete product delivery that is ready
                for manufacture, sale, and service when we launch to external
                customers.

                Thanks so much in advance for any advice anyone can pass my way.

                Dan


                --- In scrumdevelopment@y..., "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                > It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don't bother me very much
                because
                > I use email rather than the web for this group.
                >
              • Mike Cohn
                Dan-- One of the nice things with Scrum is that it is very applicable at organizational levels above where the software happens. When I ve sold Scrum to
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dan--
                  One of the nice things with Scrum is that it is very applicable at
                  organizational levels above where the software happens. When I've sold
                  Scrum to directors, VPs, CEOs, etc., the approach I take is

                  1)describe the problem(s) they are currently facing and get their
                  agreement that I really know the problems. You can probably do this with
                  some variation of "Our products are generally well received and have
                  acceptable defect levels but customers are constantly pushing for faster
                  deliveries" or "We meet our dates but we always end up cutting some
                  (many?) of the features we've previously told people we'll have in the
                  product.

                  2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
                  "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
                  Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                  project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                  developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                  want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                  like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
                  the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
                  "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
                  the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
                  they can commit to. Tell the person you're selling about the "daily
                  scrum" meetings and tell him how he can attend any of these he wants but
                  that he's a chicken and will be there just to observe.

                  3) Explain how the Product Owner can call "Release!" whenever he or she
                  wants following a sprint. Tell him how any estimates you give decrease
                  in accuracy quickly beyond one or two sprints into the future. Negotiate
                  that estimates from you will be in the number of sprints (months) it
                  will take to do the project. I'll typically say something like, "Based
                  on my understanding of the features needed before we can sell the new
                  version, I estimate this project will take 3-5 sprints (months) before
                  it will releasable. We'll be at the 3 end if we opt to release near the
                  low end of what the Product Owner says is needed and if things go well;
                  we'll be at the 5 if we're at the high end of that or if we have some
                  problems or turnover, etc. Most importantly, we'll be able to make that
                  decision on a month-to-month basis."

                  4) Go over some of the economics (not really the dollars, though) of
                  what you're proposing. For example, a point that Ken taught me is how
                  really low the opportunity cost for Scrum is. What is the absolute worst
                  case of trying Scrum for 30 days? Scrum can be implemented in a day and
                  without any tool costs or dramatic changes in engineering practices
                  (some changes are usually appropriate, especially incorporating some of
                  the good ideas from XP but they aren't necessary right off). In an
                  absolutely disastrous situation the team would have gone off and coded
                  for 30 days and produced something that the organization doesn't want.
                  Even if you find Scrum doesn't work for some reason then you switch back
                  after 30 days.

                  5) Scrum really takes off when you get the whole company thinking Scrum.
                  I'm working with an organization right now and we're moving Scrum up
                  from the engineers to a process we use for allocating resources across
                  the company. This is a really small company (20 people) but they have
                  dozens of commercial products and so we're starting to introduce a
                  higher level set of Scrum activities to decide where programmers should
                  spend their time. I haven't tried this yet (but I will within two weeks)
                  but I am really intrigued with using Real Option Valuation (an
                  alternative to simple ROI calculations) in these management Scrums.

                  In terms of expanding Scrum beyond development so that it includes all
                  of the other product deliverables: There's really no secret there--just
                  put those items on the product backlog and then move them into
                  appropriate sprint backlogs. On most products this feels a bit weird but
                  it's still worth doing. What I mean by that is you put tasks on the
                  backlog of "write user's guide" and like Scrum says you don't really
                  assign that to a particular person. Well, if you've only got one tech
                  writer it's pretty obvious who will do the work. It's the same case with
                  "design packaging" and "write marketing collateral" and "place ads" etc.
                  All those activities are not ones a programmer is likely to pull off a
                  sprint backlog list. Anyway, I do track them on the sprint backlog
                  because it helps me get a good overall view of the project AND many of
                  these activities do spinoff engineering tasks--e.g., proofreading
                  sections of the manual, etc. Those tasks can be handled just like coding
                  tasks so they should be tracked that way. Also, this helps make sure
                  that these tasks aren't forgotten when the programmers plan how much
                  they can get done. One thing I do when I'm tracking these types of
                  activities--I'll typically leave them out of my sprint burndown charts
                  (so the burndown chart is just the "true" engineering tasks (including
                  test)), or I may show the burndown with and without them, depending on
                  the project. The burndown charts are most useful when there's a lot of
                  uncertainty in tasks. For example, most tech writers end up having their
                  work very timeboxed such that they know they have 3 days on chapter 1
                  and 5 on chapter 2. Those types of tasks burn down at predictable rates
                  so they mask real trends in the burndown chart.

                  Yes, use your marketing team or ideally a single "Product Manager" in
                  that group as your customer. I've done plenty of commercial software
                  w/Scrum and always use that type of person. I've had people suggest I
                  use a "customer advisory team" but I've always been in too big of a
                  hurry for that and trust the Product Manager to invoke such a team on
                  the occasional item where it's necessary.

                  Good luck and post some progress reports to this group. I'm sure I'm not
                  the only one who would like to hear how it goes.

                  --Mike


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dan Brown [mailto:kid_danomite@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 7:42 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                  "management" org

                  I assume everyone in the list followed this comment, but it is worth
                  repeating. Yahoo Groups has a nice digest feature; no advertisements
                  (except for the people who SP~M the group), and the one daily e-mail
                  makes for a quick read to scan for what is interesting.

                  As the saying goes, "and now for something completely different."

                  I would love to get feedback from those with some experience in a
                  management-centric environment on how to get some traction with
                  Agile. Here's the current situation: I've introduced a slight
                  variation of scrum that is only within our development group (we are
                  basically handed a product backlog that does not change at the
                  beginning of development). While scrum is not quite ubiquitous on
                  teams, it is fairly well received within development, but there are a
                  couple challenges to becoming truly agile.

                  First, as I mentioned, we tend to be a management-centric group, so
                  it's been a challenge for the leadership to let go of the reigns a
                  bit and also for a lot of the development team to grab on and drive.
                  Second, we deliver to external customers, so our marketing team, I
                  think, would be our closest proxy for "the customer" but I haven't
                  yet successfully engaged them in the process. Finally, if we can
                  successfully engage the rest of the business, I need a better
                  understanding of how we expand the scope from software deliveries at
                  the end of each sprint, to a complete product delivery that is ready
                  for manufacture, sale, and service when we launch to external
                  customers.

                  Thanks so much in advance for any advice anyone can pass my way.

                  Dan


                  --- In scrumdevelopment@y..., "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                  > It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don't bother me very much
                  because
                  > I use email rather than the web for this group.
                  >




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                • Ron Jeffries
                  ... I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing? Thanks, Ron Jeffries
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
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                    On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                    > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
                    > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
                    > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                    > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                    > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                    > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                    > like a problem in your case).

                    I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
                    they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

                    Thanks,

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct answer?
                  • Ken Schwaber
                    Ron s right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed. The
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                      Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can
                      of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
                      The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they have
                      to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
                      and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
                      they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the technology
                      untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
                      can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.
                      Ken

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                      Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:40 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                      "management" org


                      On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                      > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
                      > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
                      > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                      > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                      > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                      > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                      > like a problem in your case).

                      I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
                      they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

                      Thanks,

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct
                      answer?



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                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by committing to what they sign up for . Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to see if I
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                        On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 9:46:28 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                        > Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can
                        > of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
                        > The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they have
                        > to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
                        > and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
                        > they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the technology
                        > untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
                        > can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.

                        Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by "committing to what they
                        sign up for". Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to
                        see if I understand. These are in the form of statements, but they are
                        really questions:

                        In Scrum, the developers pick from an ordered list of backlog, that
                        is the Backlog Owner says what the priorities are and the team does
                        the top N that they feel they can commit to, based on their
                        assessment of their velocity.

                        In XP, based on existing estimates for stories and on the team's
                        measured velocity, the customer picks stories that s/he next wants
                        to see done. The team signs up for those.

                        Comparing, in Scrum the team commits to the high level goals but not
                        to the details, nor to the how. In XP, the team undertakes to meet
                        the Customer's detailed acceptance tests, but still not to the how,
                        and renegotiates when it appears that they will fall short. XP
                        involves the Customer in the tradeoff decision, while by definition,
                        pardon the term, Scrum does not. (I'll bet that in practice, Scrum
                        teams do commonly go to the owner and offer alternatives when
                        there's tradeoff to be done.)

                        So there's an equivalent amount of real "commitment", I'd say. Now
                        Mike said:

                        > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                        > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                        > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                        > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                        > like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
                        > the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
                        > "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
                        > the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
                        > they can commit to.

                        In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                        and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                        roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                        hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                        will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                        let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                        Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                        do you deal with it?

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda
                      • Mike Cohn
                        Hmm, I must not have been clear. Here s how a typical Scrum project goes for me: First we work with a Product Owner to jumpstart the Product Backlog with all
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                          Hmm, I must not have been clear. Here's how a typical Scrum project goes
                          for me:

                          First we work with a "Product Owner" to jumpstart the Product Backlog
                          with all the "obvious" items on the list. (For the last year I've been
                          capturing most of these as XP stories.) This takes a few hours and
                          results in what will usually be 2-6 months of work for the team. I don't
                          estimate it at that point but by the time most organizations get around
                          to deciding to actually develop a product they have lots of ideas about
                          what goes in it--some good, some bad.

                          Based on what the Product Owner says the priorities are the team pulls
                          off the top N tasks and says "This is what we can commit to finishing
                          (tested, etc.) in a month." In reality it's never the exact top N tasks
                          but rather it is the top M tasks plus "a few" more that are near the top
                          but not the "next" items. I've never met a Product Owner who had a
                          problem with this because their prioritization are approximate anyway,
                          especially early on.

                          The team codes. The Product Owner comes up with new items on the
                          Backlog.

                          So--yes, the team commits to completing as much as they can but they
                          make that commitment at the start of the sprint (iteration) by pulling
                          off a bundle of work. As Ken noted the real measure of their success is
                          against a "sprint goal," which is a summary of what they're doing in the
                          sprint, not against the exact list of tasks. I'm not sure I've had more
                          than a couple of sprints deliver everything exactly in the sprint and no
                          more/no less. Usually the team will pull a couple of things in and/or
                          ask for permission to defer an item or two.

                          Most of the Scrum teams I've worked with tend to pull in too much
                          (especially at first) so I've encouraged them to pull in what they "know
                          they can do". That way we know we'll finish the most important tasks and
                          we can pull more in from there. I don't like situations where we pull in
                          the 10 most important and then decide we're not going to finish so we
                          drop the second-most important item. That's wrong for delivering value
                          to our customer so I encourage it to go the other way. XP's idea of
                          velocity here has been very useful in helping me assist Scrum teams by
                          knowing how much they need to over or underestimate their capacity.

                          --Mike



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                          Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 11:40 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                          "management" org

                          On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                          > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the
                          name
                          > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile
                          etc...".
                          > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                          > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                          > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that
                          you
                          > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                          > like a problem in your case).

                          I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
                          they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

                          Thanks,

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the
                          correct answer?



                          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

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                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... You are that, Ken, you are that. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                            On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:19:09 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                            > BTW, I was so pleased when I read one of your last emails and you said that
                            > I was a better, better man. Thanks!

                            You are that, Ken, you are that. ;->

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
                          • Ken Schwaber
                            Your assessment of xP and Scrum practices is correct, and collaboration is of course the solution. And, in both, it is the team that selects how much they can
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                              Your assessment of xP and Scrum practices is correct, and collaboration is
                              of course the solution. And, in both, it is the team that selects how much
                              they can do. The customer says "what", the team commits to how much of
                              "what" and "how" they will turn the "what" into code.

                              The customer wants to commit a fixed amount of money and get a fixed amount
                              of functionality on a specified date. Just like at Dunkin Donuts, where
                              $2.49 buys 6 donuts right now. A bunch of answers:

                              1. Lay out the functionality and estimate it, just like you were bidding on
                              a fcfd (fixed cost,fixed date) contract using traditional methodologies. Of
                              course you are going to have to absorb some up front cost and effort to do
                              this, and you'll build that cost into the bid/estimate. And prioritize the
                              functionality. Collaborate with the customer that this functionality
                              delivered in this sequence will optimize his ability to get the value, to
                              deliver the vision, to redo the business operation, will deliver the system,
                              that he wants. Tell him that you need the functionality ordered like this
                              because you do iterative development and you want him to confirm that you
                              are on track every iteration. And that you will give him the ability to
                              change the requirements and their priority at the end of every iteration,
                              because you know that his mind will change as he sees the system emerge and
                              because his business conditions will change. And tell him that, in your
                              experience, he will probably get most of the value from just some of the
                              functionality, but you want him in charge of what functionality first. Then
                              start going and collaborate. This is what DSDM does with the premiss that
                              20% of the functionality will deliver 80% of the functionality. The
                              prioritized backlog or stories, projected forward with estimates, becomes
                              the contract bid.

                              2. Same as 1 except only lay out functionality for the first three months of
                              work. Bid the first three months as needed to really get a grasp on some
                              pretty complex requirements and technology. And that at the end of the three
                              months the customer will have the start of their system, potentially a first
                              release to implement, and know if they want to proceed with you and to build
                              the system or not. A proof of concept and engagement, except with real
                              working functionality. Then enter into a collaborative, iteration by
                              iteration (or 3x) contract. And switch the pressure, know that they know how
                              good you are and how you can satisfy their needs. Tell them that you may
                              need a longer committment so you can commit the resources to them.

                              3. Check with Alistair Cockburn and the DSDM people. They bid on a state of
                              Utah contract that was a fcfd rfp, and by using the first approach they
                              changed the way that the state people viewed bidding and contracting and -
                              in the process - may have become the preferred vendor.

                              4. Understand that some customers are such contractual pricks, going after
                              fcfp because they are lazy and don't intend to get involved, that you should
                              walk away because it's a losing proposition (yes, even in these economic
                              times ... remember that grocery stores still need baggers).

                              BTW, I was so pleased when I read one of your last emails and you said that
                              I was a better, better man. Thanks!
                              Ken

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                              Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 9:57 AM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                              "management" org


                              On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 9:46:28 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                              > Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they
                              can
                              > of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
                              > The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they
                              have
                              > to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
                              > and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
                              > they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the
                              technology
                              > untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
                              > can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.

                              Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by "committing to what they
                              sign up for". Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to
                              see if I understand. These are in the form of statements, but they are
                              really questions:

                              In Scrum, the developers pick from an ordered list of backlog, that
                              is the Backlog Owner says what the priorities are and the team does
                              the top N that they feel they can commit to, based on their
                              assessment of their velocity.

                              In XP, based on existing estimates for stories and on the team's
                              measured velocity, the customer picks stories that s/he next wants
                              to see done. The team signs up for those.

                              Comparing, in Scrum the team commits to the high level goals but not
                              to the details, nor to the how. In XP, the team undertakes to meet
                              the Customer's detailed acceptance tests, but still not to the how,
                              and renegotiates when it appears that they will fall short. XP
                              involves the Customer in the tradeoff decision, while by definition,
                              pardon the term, Scrum does not. (I'll bet that in practice, Scrum
                              teams do commonly go to the owner and offer alternatives when
                              there's tradeoff to be done.)

                              So there's an equivalent amount of real "commitment", I'd say. Now
                              Mike said:

                              > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                              > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                              > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                              > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                              > like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
                              > the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
                              > "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
                              > the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
                              > they can commit to.

                              In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                              and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                              roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                              hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                              will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                              let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                              Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                              do you deal with it?

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda



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                            • Mike Cohn
                              Yes, frequently. I usually try to sell away from that type of situation because I ve seen it go bad too frequently. If you go into something with a fixed date
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                                Yes, frequently. I usually try to sell away from that type of situation
                                because I've seen it go bad too frequently. If you go into something
                                with a fixed date and a fixed feature set the only things that can
                                change are the quality or the staff size (which will adversely affect
                                the quality, so it's really only quality that suffers).

                                If I'm presenting to a CEO, for example, to take over a project a
                                typical question is "Why should I use you for this project? Company X
                                will guarantee me a delivery date with a defined set of functionality."
                                My answer to that is always: Anyone who guarantees a date and a set of
                                features is either padding his estimate, lying, or both. I could pad my
                                estimate and give you the same thing and take away some of your
                                flexibility at the same time. It all depends on what you want.

                                When I estimate approximately how many sprints a project will take I use
                                a Theory of Constraints / Critical Chain approach (Eli Goldratt). This
                                works really well--not necessarily for creating a Gantt chart I want to
                                use for anything later--but for estimating overall duration. It also
                                helps the team think through dependencies between tasks/stories.
                                Critical Chain works well because it is so compatible with uncertainty.
                                To estimate the project I work with the team to come up with a 50% and a
                                90% estimate for each task. Using those I can figure out the nominal
                                schedule for a project (based on late-start 50% estimates) and I can
                                then add feeding and project buffers. So far, it hasn't failed me in
                                coming up with estimates I can put around Scrum projects. I finished a
                                project this summer where the CEO made us give him a point-estimate
                                (7/13) six months in advance. We finished on time and the team commented
                                how nice it was to have accomplished so much but never have felt
                                inordinately under the gun as on most projects. That same CEO is no
                                longer even asking for estimates--he does lay out aggressive goals for
                                the team but he now has trust in the team to deliver the most they can
                                the fastest they can.

                                --Mike

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:57 AM
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                                "management" org

                                > In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                                > and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                                > roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                                > hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                                > will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                                > let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                                > Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                                > do you deal with it?

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
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