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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

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  • Ken Schwaber
    Peter, How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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      Peter,
      How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?
      Ken
      -----Original Message-----
      From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
      Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
      To: scrum@...
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

      * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

      scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

       

      Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
      Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

       

      Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

       

      I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
      Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

       

      I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
      the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
      change.

      Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
      for AgileAlliance to host?)

      But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
      would give it an energy boost.

      /Jonas

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
      > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
      >
      >
      > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
      > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
      > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
      > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
      > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
      > host?
      >
      >
      > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
      >
      > Ken Schwaber
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    • Peter McGowan
      Hi Ken, The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe. It doesn t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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        Hi Ken,

         

        The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

         

        Peter

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

         

        Peter,

        How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

        Ken

        -----Original Message-----
        From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
        Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
        To: scrum@...
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

        * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

        scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

         

        Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

         

        Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

         

        I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

         

        I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
        the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
        change.

        Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
        for AgileAlliance to host?)

        But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
        would give it an energy boost.

        /Jonas

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
        > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
        >
        >
        > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
        > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
        > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
        > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
        > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
        > host?
        >
        >
        > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
        >
        > Ken Schwaber
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

         


        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

         



        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

      • Ken Schwaber
        Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality? ... From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@explorica.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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          Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

          Hi Ken,

           

          The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

           

          Peter

           

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

           

          Peter,

          How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

          Ken

          -----Original Message-----
          From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
          Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
          To: scrum@...
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

          * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

          scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

           

          Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

           

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
          Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

           

          Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

           

          I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
          Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

           

          I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
          the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
          change.

          Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
          for AgileAlliance to host?)

          But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
          would give it an energy boost.

          /Jonas

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
          > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
          >
          >
          > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
          > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
          > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
          > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
          > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
          > host?
          >
          >
          > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
          >
          > Ken Schwaber
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

           


          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

           



          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Mike Cohn
          The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads-so probably not worth a change. ... From: Ken Schwaber
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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            The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads—so probably not worth a change.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:05 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

            Hi Ken,

             

            The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

             

            Peter

             

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            Peter,

            How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

            Ken

            -----Original Message-----
            From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
            Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
            To: scrum@...
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

            * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

            scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

             

            Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

             

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
            Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

             

            I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
            Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

             

            I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
            the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
            change.

            Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
            for AgileAlliance to host?)

            But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
            would give it an energy boost.

            /Jonas

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
            > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
            >
            >
            > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
            > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
            > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
            > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
            > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
            > host?
            >
            >
            > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
            >
            > Ken Schwaber
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

             


            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

             



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

             



            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          • Mike Beedle
            The other alternative is to kick out the offenders from the list and block them from further access. We do this all the time in our servers -- block offending
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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              The other alternative is to kick out the offenders from the list and block them from further access.
               
              We do this all the time in our servers -- block offending domains and users,
               
              mb
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:05 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

              Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

              Hi Ken,

               

              The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

               

              Peter

               

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

               

              Peter,

              How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

              Ken

              -----Original Message-----
              From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
              Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
              To: scrum@...
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

              * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

              scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

               

              Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

               

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
              Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

               

              Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

               

              I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
              Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

               

              I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
              the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
              change.

              Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
              for AgileAlliance to host?)

              But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
              would give it an energy boost.

              /Jonas

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
              > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
              >
              >
              > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
              > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
              > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
              > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
              > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
              > host?
              >
              >
              > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
              >
              > Ken Schwaber
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

               


              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

               



              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Mike Beedle
              To get rid of the adds one of us may sponsor the e-group (like Object Mentor does with the extreme-programming group), or a group of us can chip in to sponsor
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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                To get rid of the adds one of us may sponsor the e-group (like Object Mentor does with
                the extreme-programming group), or a group of us can chip in to sponsor it.  I have no
                clue what is the sponsoring fee, btw.   Does anyone know?
                 
                mb
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:27 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads—so probably not worth a change.

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:05 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                 

                Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                Hi Ken,

                 

                The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

                 

                Peter

                 

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                 

                Peter,

                How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

                Ken

                -----Original Message-----
                From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
                Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
                To: scrum@...
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

                scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

                 

                Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

                 

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                 

                Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

                 

                I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
                Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                 

                I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
                the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
                change.

                Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
                for AgileAlliance to host?)

                But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
                would give it an energy boost.

                /Jonas

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
                > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
                >
                >
                > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
                > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
                > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
                > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
                > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
                > host?
                >
                >
                > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
                >
                > Ken Schwaber
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                 


                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                 



                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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              • Ken Schwaber
                I ve looked at everything that was suggested and liked Mary s suggestion the best. It s at http://www.email-publisher.com/signup/index.html . My company will
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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                  I've looked at everything that was suggested and liked Mary's suggestion the best. It's at http://www.email-publisher.com/signup/index.html . My company will pay the fees for it being ad free if most of you think it's a good alternative to egroups. Let me know.
                  Ken 
                   
                   Message-----
                  From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:27 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                  The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads—so probably not worth a change.

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:05 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                   

                  Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                  Hi Ken,

                   

                  The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

                   

                  Peter

                   

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                   

                  Peter,

                  How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

                  Ken

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
                  Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
                  To: scrum@...
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                  * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

                  scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

                   

                  Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

                   

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                  Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                   

                  Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

                   

                  I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
                  Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                   

                  I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
                  the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
                  change.

                  Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
                  for AgileAlliance to host?)

                  But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
                  would give it an energy boost.

                  /Jonas

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
                  > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
                  >
                  >
                  > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
                  > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
                  > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
                  > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
                  > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
                  > host?
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
                  >
                  > Ken Schwaber
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                   


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                • Mike Cohn
                  It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don t bother me very much because I use email rather than the web for this group. ... From: Ken Schwaber
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don’t bother me very much because I use email rather than the web for this group.

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:42 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                     

                    I've looked at everything that was suggested and liked Mary's suggestion the best. It's at http://www.email-publisher.com/signup/index.html . My company will pay the fees for it being ad free if most of you think it's a good alternative to egroups. Let me know.

                    Ken 

                     

                     Message-----
                    From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:27 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                    The one Mary sent out looked awfully close but it did still seem to have ads—so probably not worth a change.

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:05 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                     

                    Is ther anything for free that has equivalent functionality?

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Peter McGowan [mailto:pmcgowan@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:13 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                    Hi Ken,

                     

                    The Mailing List software on controlchaos.com only supports subscribe/unsubscribe.  It doesn’t have a Web Interface or Digest functionality like you would get with Yahoo!Groups.

                     

                    Peter

                     

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:46 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                     

                    Peter,

                    How do I get on and review old message, membership ... the type of browsing and administrative stuff that egroups has? Is that available at scrum@...? How do new people sign up?

                    Ken

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: peter@... [mailto:peter@...]
                    Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:04 PM
                    To: scrum@...
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                    * Scrum Mailing List - Header *

                    scrum@... is active (scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com is a member).

                     

                    Send a message to it with “subscribe” in the header and you’re done.  Same goes for unsubscribe.

                     

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                    Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:27 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                     

                    Oops—I’d assumed that on the new system we would still get emails.

                     

                    I’d be opposed to anything where I have to go to a website as I know I won’t go there very frequently. The “push” approach of email works much better, IMO.

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Jonas Bengtsson [mailto:jonas.b@...]
                    Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups

                     

                    I am using e-mail to read and post messages to this group (I guess that's
                    the case for most members). Using a web based approach would be quite a
                    change.

                    Have you considered starting a new mailing list? (This might be something
                    for AgileAlliance to host?)

                    But change might be good. Perhaps moving this group to a web based system
                    would give it an energy boost.

                    /Jonas

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:kschwaber@...]
                    > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:33 PM
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Alternative to EGroups
                    >
                    >
                    > I met Francois Beauregard from Pyxis Technologies at the initial
                    > meeting of the Montreal Agile User Group. He offerred to host our
                    > egroup on his company's server. Since I'm getting a little tired on
                    > Yahoo's commercialization of egroups, I thought that I would put it
                    > up to a vote. Does anyone mind if I shift us over to this egroup
                    > host?
                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.pyxis-tech.com/agilemontreal/yabb/YaBB.cgi
                    >
                    > Ken Schwaber
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                     


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                  • Mary Poppendieck
                    I am a member of a dozen or so Yahoo discussion groups, and I always choose to get a digest instead of e-mails, and then I use the web interface if the digest
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 4, 2002
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                      I am a member of a dozen or so Yahoo discussion groups, and I always
                      choose to get a digest instead of e-mails, and then I use the web
                      interface if the digest is interesting. One thing Yahoo can do that
                      Topica can't is allow file posting. I don't like the Yahoo web
                      interface, but I'm used to it. I prefer Topica, but can live with
                      Yahoo.

                      What is our problem – the web interface or the junk e-mail? I
                      administer a Yahoo group for our bike club and I have complete
                      control over who can join and post messages. There are varying
                      levels of control, all easy to set up and administer.

                      Mary Poppendieck
                      www.leanprogramming.com
                    • Dan Brown
                      I assume everyone in the list followed this comment, but it is worth repeating. Yahoo Groups has a nice digest feature; no advertisements (except for the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
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                        I assume everyone in the list followed this comment, but it is worth
                        repeating. Yahoo Groups has a nice digest feature; no advertisements
                        (except for the people who SP~M the group), and the one daily e-mail
                        makes for a quick read to scan for what is interesting.

                        As the saying goes, "and now for something completely different."

                        I would love to get feedback from those with some experience in a
                        management-centric environment on how to get some traction with
                        Agile. Here's the current situation: I've introduced a slight
                        variation of scrum that is only within our development group (we are
                        basically handed a product backlog that does not change at the
                        beginning of development). While scrum is not quite ubiquitous on
                        teams, it is fairly well received within development, but there are a
                        couple challenges to becoming truly agile.

                        First, as I mentioned, we tend to be a management-centric group, so
                        it's been a challenge for the leadership to let go of the reigns a
                        bit and also for a lot of the development team to grab on and drive.
                        Second, we deliver to external customers, so our marketing team, I
                        think, would be our closest proxy for "the customer" but I haven't
                        yet successfully engaged them in the process. Finally, if we can
                        successfully engage the rest of the business, I need a better
                        understanding of how we expand the scope from software deliveries at
                        the end of each sprint, to a complete product delivery that is ready
                        for manufacture, sale, and service when we launch to external
                        customers.

                        Thanks so much in advance for any advice anyone can pass my way.

                        Dan


                        --- In scrumdevelopment@y..., "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                        > It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don't bother me very much
                        because
                        > I use email rather than the web for this group.
                        >
                      • Mike Cohn
                        Dan-- One of the nice things with Scrum is that it is very applicable at organizational levels above where the software happens. When I ve sold Scrum to
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
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                          Dan--
                          One of the nice things with Scrum is that it is very applicable at
                          organizational levels above where the software happens. When I've sold
                          Scrum to directors, VPs, CEOs, etc., the approach I take is

                          1)describe the problem(s) they are currently facing and get their
                          agreement that I really know the problems. You can probably do this with
                          some variation of "Our products are generally well received and have
                          acceptable defect levels but customers are constantly pushing for faster
                          deliveries" or "We meet our dates but we always end up cutting some
                          (many?) of the features we've previously told people we'll have in the
                          product.

                          2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
                          "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
                          Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                          project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                          developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                          want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                          like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
                          the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
                          "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
                          the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
                          they can commit to. Tell the person you're selling about the "daily
                          scrum" meetings and tell him how he can attend any of these he wants but
                          that he's a chicken and will be there just to observe.

                          3) Explain how the Product Owner can call "Release!" whenever he or she
                          wants following a sprint. Tell him how any estimates you give decrease
                          in accuracy quickly beyond one or two sprints into the future. Negotiate
                          that estimates from you will be in the number of sprints (months) it
                          will take to do the project. I'll typically say something like, "Based
                          on my understanding of the features needed before we can sell the new
                          version, I estimate this project will take 3-5 sprints (months) before
                          it will releasable. We'll be at the 3 end if we opt to release near the
                          low end of what the Product Owner says is needed and if things go well;
                          we'll be at the 5 if we're at the high end of that or if we have some
                          problems or turnover, etc. Most importantly, we'll be able to make that
                          decision on a month-to-month basis."

                          4) Go over some of the economics (not really the dollars, though) of
                          what you're proposing. For example, a point that Ken taught me is how
                          really low the opportunity cost for Scrum is. What is the absolute worst
                          case of trying Scrum for 30 days? Scrum can be implemented in a day and
                          without any tool costs or dramatic changes in engineering practices
                          (some changes are usually appropriate, especially incorporating some of
                          the good ideas from XP but they aren't necessary right off). In an
                          absolutely disastrous situation the team would have gone off and coded
                          for 30 days and produced something that the organization doesn't want.
                          Even if you find Scrum doesn't work for some reason then you switch back
                          after 30 days.

                          5) Scrum really takes off when you get the whole company thinking Scrum.
                          I'm working with an organization right now and we're moving Scrum up
                          from the engineers to a process we use for allocating resources across
                          the company. This is a really small company (20 people) but they have
                          dozens of commercial products and so we're starting to introduce a
                          higher level set of Scrum activities to decide where programmers should
                          spend their time. I haven't tried this yet (but I will within two weeks)
                          but I am really intrigued with using Real Option Valuation (an
                          alternative to simple ROI calculations) in these management Scrums.

                          In terms of expanding Scrum beyond development so that it includes all
                          of the other product deliverables: There's really no secret there--just
                          put those items on the product backlog and then move them into
                          appropriate sprint backlogs. On most products this feels a bit weird but
                          it's still worth doing. What I mean by that is you put tasks on the
                          backlog of "write user's guide" and like Scrum says you don't really
                          assign that to a particular person. Well, if you've only got one tech
                          writer it's pretty obvious who will do the work. It's the same case with
                          "design packaging" and "write marketing collateral" and "place ads" etc.
                          All those activities are not ones a programmer is likely to pull off a
                          sprint backlog list. Anyway, I do track them on the sprint backlog
                          because it helps me get a good overall view of the project AND many of
                          these activities do spinoff engineering tasks--e.g., proofreading
                          sections of the manual, etc. Those tasks can be handled just like coding
                          tasks so they should be tracked that way. Also, this helps make sure
                          that these tasks aren't forgotten when the programmers plan how much
                          they can get done. One thing I do when I'm tracking these types of
                          activities--I'll typically leave them out of my sprint burndown charts
                          (so the burndown chart is just the "true" engineering tasks (including
                          test)), or I may show the burndown with and without them, depending on
                          the project. The burndown charts are most useful when there's a lot of
                          uncertainty in tasks. For example, most tech writers end up having their
                          work very timeboxed such that they know they have 3 days on chapter 1
                          and 5 on chapter 2. Those types of tasks burn down at predictable rates
                          so they mask real trends in the burndown chart.

                          Yes, use your marketing team or ideally a single "Product Manager" in
                          that group as your customer. I've done plenty of commercial software
                          w/Scrum and always use that type of person. I've had people suggest I
                          use a "customer advisory team" but I've always been in too big of a
                          hurry for that and trust the Product Manager to invoke such a team on
                          the occasional item where it's necessary.

                          Good luck and post some progress reports to this group. I'm sure I'm not
                          the only one who would like to hear how it goes.

                          --Mike


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Dan Brown [mailto:kid_danomite@...]
                          Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 7:42 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                          "management" org

                          I assume everyone in the list followed this comment, but it is worth
                          repeating. Yahoo Groups has a nice digest feature; no advertisements
                          (except for the people who SP~M the group), and the one daily e-mail
                          makes for a quick read to scan for what is interesting.

                          As the saying goes, "and now for something completely different."

                          I would love to get feedback from those with some experience in a
                          management-centric environment on how to get some traction with
                          Agile. Here's the current situation: I've introduced a slight
                          variation of scrum that is only within our development group (we are
                          basically handed a product backlog that does not change at the
                          beginning of development). While scrum is not quite ubiquitous on
                          teams, it is fairly well received within development, but there are a
                          couple challenges to becoming truly agile.

                          First, as I mentioned, we tend to be a management-centric group, so
                          it's been a challenge for the leadership to let go of the reigns a
                          bit and also for a lot of the development team to grab on and drive.
                          Second, we deliver to external customers, so our marketing team, I
                          think, would be our closest proxy for "the customer" but I haven't
                          yet successfully engaged them in the process. Finally, if we can
                          successfully engage the rest of the business, I need a better
                          understanding of how we expand the scope from software deliveries at
                          the end of each sprint, to a complete product delivery that is ready
                          for manufacture, sale, and service when we launch to external
                          customers.

                          Thanks so much in advance for any advice anyone can pass my way.

                          Dan


                          --- In scrumdevelopment@y..., "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                          > It looks good to me but the Yahoo ads don't bother me very much
                          because
                          > I use email rather than the web for this group.
                          >




                          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing? Thanks, Ron Jeffries
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 6, 2002
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                            On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                            > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
                            > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
                            > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                            > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                            > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                            > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                            > like a problem in your case).

                            I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
                            they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

                            Thanks,

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct answer?
                          • Ken Schwaber
                            Ron s right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed. The
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                              Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can
                              of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
                              The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they have
                              to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
                              and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
                              they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the technology
                              untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
                              can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.
                              Ken

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                              Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:40 AM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                              "management" org


                              On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                              > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the name
                              > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile etc...".
                              > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                              > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                              > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                              > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                              > like a problem in your case).

                              I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
                              they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

                              Thanks,

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct
                              answer?



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                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by committing to what they sign up for . Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to see if I
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                                On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 9:46:28 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                                > Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they can
                                > of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
                                > The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they have
                                > to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
                                > and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
                                > they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the technology
                                > untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
                                > can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.

                                Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by "committing to what they
                                sign up for". Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to
                                see if I understand. These are in the form of statements, but they are
                                really questions:

                                In Scrum, the developers pick from an ordered list of backlog, that
                                is the Backlog Owner says what the priorities are and the team does
                                the top N that they feel they can commit to, based on their
                                assessment of their velocity.

                                In XP, based on existing estimates for stories and on the team's
                                measured velocity, the customer picks stories that s/he next wants
                                to see done. The team signs up for those.

                                Comparing, in Scrum the team commits to the high level goals but not
                                to the details, nor to the how. In XP, the team undertakes to meet
                                the Customer's detailed acceptance tests, but still not to the how,
                                and renegotiates when it appears that they will fall short. XP
                                involves the Customer in the tradeoff decision, while by definition,
                                pardon the term, Scrum does not. (I'll bet that in practice, Scrum
                                teams do commonly go to the owner and offer alternatives when
                                there's tradeoff to be done.)

                                So there's an equivalent amount of real "commitment", I'd say. Now
                                Mike said:

                                > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                                > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                                > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                                > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                                > like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
                                > the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
                                > "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
                                > the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
                                > they can commit to.

                                In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                                and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                                roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                                hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                                will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                                let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                                Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                                do you deal with it?

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda
                              • Mike Cohn
                                Hmm, I must not have been clear. Here s how a typical Scrum project goes for me: First we work with a Product Owner to jumpstart the Product Backlog with all
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                                  Hmm, I must not have been clear. Here's how a typical Scrum project goes
                                  for me:

                                  First we work with a "Product Owner" to jumpstart the Product Backlog
                                  with all the "obvious" items on the list. (For the last year I've been
                                  capturing most of these as XP stories.) This takes a few hours and
                                  results in what will usually be 2-6 months of work for the team. I don't
                                  estimate it at that point but by the time most organizations get around
                                  to deciding to actually develop a product they have lots of ideas about
                                  what goes in it--some good, some bad.

                                  Based on what the Product Owner says the priorities are the team pulls
                                  off the top N tasks and says "This is what we can commit to finishing
                                  (tested, etc.) in a month." In reality it's never the exact top N tasks
                                  but rather it is the top M tasks plus "a few" more that are near the top
                                  but not the "next" items. I've never met a Product Owner who had a
                                  problem with this because their prioritization are approximate anyway,
                                  especially early on.

                                  The team codes. The Product Owner comes up with new items on the
                                  Backlog.

                                  So--yes, the team commits to completing as much as they can but they
                                  make that commitment at the start of the sprint (iteration) by pulling
                                  off a bundle of work. As Ken noted the real measure of their success is
                                  against a "sprint goal," which is a summary of what they're doing in the
                                  sprint, not against the exact list of tasks. I'm not sure I've had more
                                  than a couple of sprints deliver everything exactly in the sprint and no
                                  more/no less. Usually the team will pull a couple of things in and/or
                                  ask for permission to defer an item or two.

                                  Most of the Scrum teams I've worked with tend to pull in too much
                                  (especially at first) so I've encouraged them to pull in what they "know
                                  they can do". That way we know we'll finish the most important tasks and
                                  we can pull more in from there. I don't like situations where we pull in
                                  the 10 most important and then decide we're not going to finish so we
                                  drop the second-most important item. That's wrong for delivering value
                                  to our customer so I encourage it to go the other way. XP's idea of
                                  velocity here has been very useful in helping me assist Scrum teams by
                                  knowing how much they need to over or underestimate their capacity.

                                  --Mike



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                  Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 11:40 PM
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                                  "management" org

                                  On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 10:17:29 PM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                                  > 2) I don't really go into Scrum and what it's all about. I use the
                                  name
                                  > "Scrum" but I don't say, "we're going to make this group agile
                                  etc...".
                                  > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                                  > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                                  > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that
                                  you
                                  > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                                  > like a problem in your case).

                                  I thought that in Scrum the developers commit to completing as much as
                                  they can, not as much as is provided? What am I missing?

                                  Thanks,

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the
                                  correct answer?



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                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  ... You are that, Ken, you are that. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                                    On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:19:09 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                                    > BTW, I was so pleased when I read one of your last emails and you said that
                                    > I was a better, better man. Thanks!

                                    You are that, Ken, you are that. ;->

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
                                  • Ken Schwaber
                                    Your assessment of xP and Scrum practices is correct, and collaboration is of course the solution. And, in both, it is the team that selects how much they can
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                                      Your assessment of xP and Scrum practices is correct, and collaboration is
                                      of course the solution. And, in both, it is the team that selects how much
                                      they can do. The customer says "what", the team commits to how much of
                                      "what" and "how" they will turn the "what" into code.

                                      The customer wants to commit a fixed amount of money and get a fixed amount
                                      of functionality on a specified date. Just like at Dunkin Donuts, where
                                      $2.49 buys 6 donuts right now. A bunch of answers:

                                      1. Lay out the functionality and estimate it, just like you were bidding on
                                      a fcfd (fixed cost,fixed date) contract using traditional methodologies. Of
                                      course you are going to have to absorb some up front cost and effort to do
                                      this, and you'll build that cost into the bid/estimate. And prioritize the
                                      functionality. Collaborate with the customer that this functionality
                                      delivered in this sequence will optimize his ability to get the value, to
                                      deliver the vision, to redo the business operation, will deliver the system,
                                      that he wants. Tell him that you need the functionality ordered like this
                                      because you do iterative development and you want him to confirm that you
                                      are on track every iteration. And that you will give him the ability to
                                      change the requirements and their priority at the end of every iteration,
                                      because you know that his mind will change as he sees the system emerge and
                                      because his business conditions will change. And tell him that, in your
                                      experience, he will probably get most of the value from just some of the
                                      functionality, but you want him in charge of what functionality first. Then
                                      start going and collaborate. This is what DSDM does with the premiss that
                                      20% of the functionality will deliver 80% of the functionality. The
                                      prioritized backlog or stories, projected forward with estimates, becomes
                                      the contract bid.

                                      2. Same as 1 except only lay out functionality for the first three months of
                                      work. Bid the first three months as needed to really get a grasp on some
                                      pretty complex requirements and technology. And that at the end of the three
                                      months the customer will have the start of their system, potentially a first
                                      release to implement, and know if they want to proceed with you and to build
                                      the system or not. A proof of concept and engagement, except with real
                                      working functionality. Then enter into a collaborative, iteration by
                                      iteration (or 3x) contract. And switch the pressure, know that they know how
                                      good you are and how you can satisfy their needs. Tell them that you may
                                      need a longer committment so you can commit the resources to them.

                                      3. Check with Alistair Cockburn and the DSDM people. They bid on a state of
                                      Utah contract that was a fcfd rfp, and by using the first approach they
                                      changed the way that the state people viewed bidding and contracting and -
                                      in the process - may have become the preferred vendor.

                                      4. Understand that some customers are such contractual pricks, going after
                                      fcfp because they are lazy and don't intend to get involved, that you should
                                      walk away because it's a losing proposition (yes, even in these economic
                                      times ... remember that grocery stores still need baggers).

                                      BTW, I was so pleased when I read one of your last emails and you said that
                                      I was a better, better man. Thanks!
                                      Ken

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                      Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 9:57 AM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                                      "management" org


                                      On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 9:46:28 AM, Ken Schwaber wrote:

                                      > Ron's right, the developers (team) commits to completing as much as they
                                      can
                                      > of the product backlog, aiming as the sprint goal to which they committed.
                                      > The goal is the overall purpose of the sprint, the backlog is what they
                                      have
                                      > to turn into product functionality to meet the goal. They are free to add
                                      > and subtract (with the customers colaboration) from the backlog as long as
                                      > they meet the goal. If the requirements become irrelevant or the
                                      technology
                                      > untractable during the sprint so that they can't meet the goal, the sprint
                                      > can be abnormally terminated either by the customer or the team.

                                      Now, this may be exactly what Mike meant by "committing to what they
                                      sign up for". Let me try out some differences between Scrum and XP to
                                      see if I understand. These are in the form of statements, but they are
                                      really questions:

                                      In Scrum, the developers pick from an ordered list of backlog, that
                                      is the Backlog Owner says what the priorities are and the team does
                                      the top N that they feel they can commit to, based on their
                                      assessment of their velocity.

                                      In XP, based on existing estimates for stories and on the team's
                                      measured velocity, the customer picks stories that s/he next wants
                                      to see done. The team signs up for those.

                                      Comparing, in Scrum the team commits to the high level goals but not
                                      to the details, nor to the how. In XP, the team undertakes to meet
                                      the Customer's detailed acceptance tests, but still not to the how,
                                      and renegotiates when it appears that they will fall short. XP
                                      involves the Customer in the tradeoff decision, while by definition,
                                      pardon the term, Scrum does not. (I'll bet that in practice, Scrum
                                      teams do commonly go to the owner and offer alternatives when
                                      there's tradeoff to be done.)

                                      So there's an equivalent amount of real "commitment", I'd say. Now
                                      Mike said:

                                      > Rather, I just describe an approach--stress that you're doing the
                                      > project in one month increments and that during that one month the
                                      > developers commit to completing everything they sign up for and that you
                                      > want the business to commit to not changing things (that doesn't sound
                                      > like a problem in your case). Describe how you'll meet at the start of
                                      > the month to create the "sprint backlog" and how the marketing person (a
                                      > "product manager" or in Scrum terms the "Product Owner") completely owns
                                      > the prioritization but that the team will draw a line under the tasks
                                      > they can commit to.

                                      In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                                      and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                                      roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                                      hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                                      will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                                      let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                                      Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                                      do you deal with it?

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda



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                                    • Mike Cohn
                                      Yes, frequently. I usually try to sell away from that type of situation because I ve seen it go bad too frequently. If you go into something with a fixed date
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 7, 2002
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                                        Yes, frequently. I usually try to sell away from that type of situation
                                        because I've seen it go bad too frequently. If you go into something
                                        with a fixed date and a fixed feature set the only things that can
                                        change are the quality or the staff size (which will adversely affect
                                        the quality, so it's really only quality that suffers).

                                        If I'm presenting to a CEO, for example, to take over a project a
                                        typical question is "Why should I use you for this project? Company X
                                        will guarantee me a delivery date with a defined set of functionality."
                                        My answer to that is always: Anyone who guarantees a date and a set of
                                        features is either padding his estimate, lying, or both. I could pad my
                                        estimate and give you the same thing and take away some of your
                                        flexibility at the same time. It all depends on what you want.

                                        When I estimate approximately how many sprints a project will take I use
                                        a Theory of Constraints / Critical Chain approach (Eli Goldratt). This
                                        works really well--not necessarily for creating a Gantt chart I want to
                                        use for anything later--but for estimating overall duration. It also
                                        helps the team think through dependencies between tasks/stories.
                                        Critical Chain works well because it is so compatible with uncertainty.
                                        To estimate the project I work with the team to come up with a 50% and a
                                        90% estimate for each task. Using those I can figure out the nominal
                                        schedule for a project (based on late-start 50% estimates) and I can
                                        then add feeding and project buffers. So far, it hasn't failed me in
                                        coming up with estimates I can put around Scrum projects. I finished a
                                        project this summer where the CEO made us give him a point-estimate
                                        (7/13) six months in advance. We finished on time and the team commented
                                        how nice it was to have accomplished so much but never have felt
                                        inordinately under the gun as on most projects. That same CEO is no
                                        longer even asking for estimates--he does lay out aggressive goals for
                                        the team but he now has trust in the team to deliver the most they can
                                        the fastest they can.

                                        --Mike

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:57 AM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Alternative to EGroups + scrum in a
                                        "management" org

                                        > In a recent conversation on the xp group, Bill Walton who bravely came
                                        > and talked with us after writing an op/ed piece that many XPers
                                        > roundly trounced, made the point that in his experience, managers want
                                        > hard answers as to how much some project will cost. He feels that they
                                        > will not sit still for approaches like the above, because they don't
                                        > let them decide go / nogo on a project and its budget.

                                        > Do you feel the same pressure to come up with a complete answer? How
                                        > do you deal with it?

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
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