Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [scrumdevelopment] Concept of "work ahead" team

Expand Messages
  • Cass Dalton
    I still feel that this makes the dev team lose out on some of that good conversation. Understanding what makes a story better gives the dev team valuable
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
    • 0 Attachment

      I still feel that this makes the dev team lose out on some of that good conversation.  Understanding what makes a story "better" gives the dev team valuable context for that story

      On Sep 3, 2013 9:52 AM, "Alix Moghdam" <ali.moghadam@...> wrote:
       

      It seems that this team is helping the PO to create a better backlog. If so, I think it does not harm. But they should remain at the PO fields and boundaries: Defining Stories from business point of view and prioritizing them. And the PO should still be responsible about the final decisions. This team just helps him/her.
      If this team falls into technical fields, then it could be an anti-pattern. They should not decide about implementation, design, and other development-related topics. 
       
      @Alix


      On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:48 PM, Richard Griffiths <richard@...> wrote:
       

      Michael, Srinivas, Madhur

       

      Thanks for the responses (condensed for brevity)

       

      > When you refer to the "chosen few" I'm curious who is doing that choosing.

       

      Actually the sub team has formed from within the team - PO, BA and architect, they very much look at up-coming stories to get them in some form of shape for the whole team to review them at story sizing/grooming sessions.

       

      > A sub-team (of a chosen few) which regularly does this tends to form a unspoken (maybe even spoken) hierarchy which is best avoided. 

       

      We do have some time-zone issues and not everyone is able to meet to plan for the future and groom the backlog on a daily basis; this way we get team input, and as noted, we do rotate people in and out, but it seems to be working.

       

      We have planned grooming sessions (one per week) where everyone attends and we refine and size as appropriate

       

      I was more concerned that there was an expectation that the sub-team/work ahead group would estimate the stories.

       

      My answer was, fine, as long as they, and they only, are happy to take on the work J

       

      Richard

       


      From: Richard Griffiths <richard@...>
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013 12:28 PM
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Concept of "work ahead" team

       

       

      Hi all, I’ve started to hear this more often – the “work ahead” team being a smaller group out of the team (BA, Architect, UX) who will groom the stories, relatively size them, have them ready for the team to do further work on.

       

      Shouldn’t the whole team be involved in these exercises, not the chosen few?

       

      --

      Richard

       

      Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy

       

       


    • Adam Sroka
      My interpretation of three amigos is that it does not preclude whole team participation but describes the three viewpoints required to have a quorum on any
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        My interpretation of three amigos is that it does not preclude whole team participation but describes the three viewpoints required to have a quorum on any story. On a high functioning team anyone should be able to represent any of the three. So, you need a pair to have the conversation and the customer/PO to make the final call. 

        On Tuesday, September 3, 2013, Adrian Howard wrote:
         

        On 3 September 2013 17:52, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
        > I've found that grooming stories with the whole team can drag on and on,
        > accomplishing relatively little and frustrating everyone. On the other
        > hand, it's important that everyone have some involvement. It's
        > particularly important that someone doing the work not be handed an
        > estimate made by someone not doing the work.

        Are there other ways to drop the annoyance level? For example:

        * grooming less at a time (my preference)
        * things like affinity estimation
        (http://kanemar.com/2008/04/21/scrum-trainers-gathering-44-affinity-estimating/)

        Not arguing that 3 Amigos is a useful approach... but as years go buy
        I'm more and more hesitant about approaches that stop the whole team
        participating.

        Cheers,

        Adrian
        --
        adrianh@... / +44 (0)7752 419080 / @adrianh / quietstars.com
        Subscribe to the latest Agile & Lean UX news here > http://is.gd/KREt5S

      • Adam Sroka
        Perhaps, if we are planning in a manner that feels like it is a waste of time for some of the folks on the team, it is, in fact, a waste of the time for
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Perhaps, if we are planning in a manner that feels like it is a waste of time for some of the folks on the team, it is, in fact, a waste of the time for everyone on the team, and we should find a leaner and more effective way to plan. Conversations that are valuable are not a waste of anyone's time. 


          On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
           

          Hi Adrian,


          On Sep 3, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Adrian Howard <adrianh@...> wrote:

          Not arguing that 3 Amigos is a useful approach... but as years go buy
          I'm more and more hesitant about approaches that stop the whole team
          participating.

          I tend to agree. Limiting knowledge / learning to a few seems off to me.


          Ron Jeffries
          I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
          will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
          I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
          Why pay now when we can pay later?


        • Adrian Howard
          ... That feels right to me. Cheers, Adrian -- adrianh@quietstars.com / +44 (0)7752 419080 / @adrianh / quietstars.com Join my Fundamentals of Lean UX workshop,
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
          • 0 Attachment

            On 4 September 2013 02:05, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
            Perhaps, if we are planning in a manner that feels like it is a waste of time for some of the folks on the team, it is, in fact, a waste of the time for everyone on the team, and we should find a leaner and more effective way to plan. Conversations that are valuable are not a waste of anyone's time. 

            That feels right to me.

            Cheers,

            Adrian
            -- 
            adrianh@... / +44 (0)7752 419080 / @adrianh / quietstars.com
            Join my Fundamentals of Lean UX workshop, Sep 4, http://uxcambridge.net

          • George Dinwiddie
            Adrian, ... That s part of this. But when we first did this, it was also part of the whole team exercise. ... Estimating is not part of the grooming. That s
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Adrian,

              On 9/3/13 8:34 PM, Adrian Howard wrote:
              > On 3 September 2013 17:52, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
              >> I've found that grooming stories with the whole team can drag on and on,
              >> accomplishing relatively little and frustrating everyone. On the other
              >> hand, it's important that everyone have some involvement. It's
              >> particularly important that someone doing the work not be handed an
              >> estimate made by someone not doing the work.
              >
              > Are there other ways to drop the annoyance level? For example:
              >
              > * grooming less at a time (my preference)

              That's part of this. But when we first did this, it was also part of the
              whole team exercise.

              > * things like affinity estimation
              > (http://kanemar.com/2008/04/21/scrum-trainers-gathering-44-affinity-estimating/)

              Estimating is not part of the grooming. That's generally done at the
              planning meeting by the whole team. And, yes, I find affinity estimating
              a better technique than most. I've considered counting the scenarios. I
              generally recommend calling them all "1."

              > Not arguing that 3 Amigos is a useful approach... but as years go buy
              > I'm more and more hesitant about approaches that stop the whole team
              > participating.

              I suppose you can do mob programming, but most teams don't have
              everybody working together on every task.

              The Three Amigos approach doesn't stop the whole team from
              participating. It does gain a lot of clarity in small group discussions,
              but that clarity is then brought to the whole team at planning time. The
              whole team is then able to assess each story more quickly. In my
              experience, if people think that important scenarios are missing,
              they'll generally say something.

              The use of acceptance scenarios makes it easy to keep straight on what
              is in a particular story, and what is out. Confusion over what's in and
              what's out seems to cause most of the problems in whole-team grooming
              exercises, in my experience. After a discussion that says "this part is
              in and that part is out," invariably someone brings up the need for
              "that part" later in the discussion.

              Breaking into small groups and bringing it back to the larger group is a
              time-honored and effective facilitation technique. But if you're
              uncomfortable with it, by all means try it with the whole team. I think
              the most important part of this is generating explicit scenarios to
              illustrate the story. Doing so more efficiently is much less important.

              - George

              --
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            • George Dinwiddie
              Ron, ... That would seem off to me, also. That s not what I recommend. - George -- ... * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Ron,

                On 9/3/13 8:38 PM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Adrian,
                >
                > On Sep 3, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Adrian Howard <adrianh@...
                > <mailto:adrianh@...>> wrote:
                >
                >> Not arguing that 3 Amigos is a useful approach... but as years go buy
                >> I'm more and more hesitant about approaches that stop the whole team
                >> participating.
                >
                > I tend to agree. Limiting knowledge / learning to a few seems off to me.

                That would seem off to me, also. That's not what I recommend.

                - George

                --
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              • George Dinwiddie
                Adam, ... Yes, it s viewpoints, not job roles, that count. At a minimum, - someone to keep an eye on the business desires - someone to keep an eye on
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Adam,

                  On 9/3/13 8:54 PM, Adam Sroka wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > My interpretation of three amigos is that it does not preclude whole
                  > team participation but describes the three viewpoints required to have a
                  > quorum on any story. On a high functioning team anyone should be able to
                  > represent any of the three. So, you need a pair to have the conversation
                  > and the customer/PO to make the final call.

                  Yes, it's viewpoints, not job roles, that count. At a minimum,
                  - someone to keep an eye on the business desires
                  - someone to keep an eye on implementation issues
                  - someone to keep an eye on edge cases and what might go wrong.
                  I've found it better if these viewpoints are embodied in three separate
                  people in the discussion. Often one person CAN hold these three
                  viewpoints, but it's hard to do so simultaneously. And I caution people
                  that there may be other important viewpoints. Some common examples:
                  - someone to keep an eye on UX issues
                  - someone to keep an eye on security issues
                  - someone to keep an eye on specialized business desires that are
                  separate from user needs, such as accounting or legal

                  - George

                  --
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                  Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                  Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.