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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

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  • Markus Gaertner
    Current terminilogy is that the Development Team, ScrumMaster and ProductOwner together form the Scrum Team. Beyond that, there are multiple ways you can
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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      Current terminilogy is that the Development Team, ScrumMaster and ProductOwner together form the Scrum Team.

      Beyond that, there are multiple ways you can "live" the ProductOwner role, as my colleague Stefan Roock noticed a while ago:

      Best
      Markus


      On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
      I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum.  I am also a big advocate of the practice.

      However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.

      However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.

      I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them.  Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team?  Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?

      Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.

      Thanks in advance.



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      --
      Dipl.-Inform. Markus Gärtner
      Author of ATDD by Example - A Practical Guide to Acceptance Test-Driven Development
    • Kurt Häusler
      It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs are definitely pigs. More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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        It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
        are definitely pigs.

        More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

        Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
        are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
        be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

        On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
        >
        > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
        >
        > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
        >
        > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
        >
        > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
      • scrumnoob
        Hi Kurt Good question in terms of what else is going on. The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this. I struggle with
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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          Hi Kurt

          Good question in terms of what else is going on.

          The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this.

          I struggle with this for 2 reasons:

          1. The person who provided the feedback is well regarded (I wont state their name here) within the field

          2. Regardless of what you are told you should be reading around the subject and open to challenge. AFAIK the Scrum framework tells you what the 3 roles are, thats the starting point for most other things.

          The coach is back with the team later this month so Mrs Noob hopes to bring up the subject then, as tactfully as she can.

          Thanks for the feedback.

          S


          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...> wrote:
          >
          > It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
          > are definitely pigs.
          >
          > More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?
          >
          > Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
          > are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
          > be something between the lines that isn't quite right.
          >
          > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
          > >
          > > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
          > >
          > > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
          > >
          > > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
          > >
          > > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
          > >
          > > Thanks in advance.
          >
        • Alexander Kriegisch
          If the coach is worth anything, the team cannot seriously think that the PO is a chicken, unless he behaves like one. Alexander Kriegisch
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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            If the coach is worth anything, the team cannot seriously think that the PO is a chicken, unless he behaves like one.

            Alexander Kriegisch
            http://scrum-master.de


            Am 31.07.2013 um 16:05 schrieb "scrumnoob" <scrumnoob@...>:

            > Good question in terms of what else is going on.
            >
            > The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this.
            >
            > I struggle with this for 2 reasons:
            >
            > 1. The person who provided the feedback is well regarded (I wont state their name here) within the field
            >
            > 2. Regardless of what you are told you should be reading around the subject and open to challenge. AFAIK the Scrum framework tells you what the 3 roles are, thats the starting point for most other things.
            >
            > The coach is back with the team later this month so Mrs Noob hopes to bring up the subject then, as tactfully as she can.
            >
            >
            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
            >> are definitely pigs.
            >>
            >> More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?
            >>
            >> Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
            >> are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
            >> be something between the lines that isn't quite right.
            >>
            >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
            >>>
            >>> I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
            >>>
            >>> However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
            >>>
            >>> However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
            >>>
            >>> I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
            >>>
            >>> Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
            >>>
            >>> Thanks in advance.
          • scrumnoob
            I agree, and can only think they have latched onto, or misinterpreted something that has been said, I dont believe they would have been coached/trained this
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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              I agree, and can only think they have latched onto, or misinterpreted something that has been said, I dont believe they would have been coached/trained this way.



              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Kriegisch <Kriegisch@...> wrote:
              >
              > If the coach is worth anything, the team cannot seriously think that the PO is a chicken, unless he behaves like one.
              >
              > Alexander Kriegisch
              > http://scrum-master.de
              >
              >
              > Am 31.07.2013 um 16:05 schrieb "scrumnoob" <scrumnoob@...>:
              >
              > > Good question in terms of what else is going on.
              > >
              > > The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this.
              > >
              > > I struggle with this for 2 reasons:
              > >
              > > 1. The person who provided the feedback is well regarded (I wont state their name here) within the field
              > >
              > > 2. Regardless of what you are told you should be reading around the subject and open to challenge. AFAIK the Scrum framework tells you what the 3 roles are, thats the starting point for most other things.
              > >
              > > The coach is back with the team later this month so Mrs Noob hopes to bring up the subject then, as tactfully as she can.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
              > >> are definitely pigs.
              > >>
              > >> More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?
              > >>
              > >> Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
              > >> are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
              > >> be something between the lines that isn't quite right.
              > >>
              > >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@> wrote:
              > >>>
              > >>> I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
              > >>>
              > >>> However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
              > >>>
              > >>> However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
              > >>>
              > >>> I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
              > >>>
              > >>> Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
              > >>>
              > >>> Thanks in advance.
              >
            • Richard Hundhausen
              +1 Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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                +1

                 

                Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two years ago.

                 

                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Häusler
                Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:20 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                 

                 

                It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
                are definitely pigs.

                More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

                Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
                are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
                be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

                On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
                >
                > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
                >
                > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
                >
                > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
                >
                > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
                >
                > Thanks in advance.

              • ken
                Thank you! For any team that has nothing better to do than discuss animal metaphors, I ll offer this: The PO is the customer, you re the vendor, if you re not
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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                  Thank you! For any team that has nothing better to do than discuss animal metaphors, I'll offer this: The PO is the customer, you're the vendor, if you're not 'selling' what the customer wants then the customer will find another vendor. 

                  My perspective, it keeps me focused. 

                  Ken

                  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.

                  From: Richard Hundhausen
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:12 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Reply To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                   

                  +1

                   

                  Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two years ago.

                   

                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Häusler
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:20 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                   

                   

                  It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
                  are definitely pigs.

                  More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

                  Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
                  are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
                  be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

                  On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
                  >
                  > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
                  >
                  > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
                  >
                  > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
                  >
                  > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance.


                • Peter Trudelle
                  Even back in the barnyard days of Scrum, the PO was the pig of the product, and the SM was the pig of the process. I d want the team to get some coaching
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
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                    Even back in the 'barnyard' days of Scrum, the PO was the pig of the product, and the SM was the pig of the process.  I'd want the team to get some coaching based on Ken & Jeff's latest version, which I'm sure will continue to avoid such polarizing metaphors.

                    Peter

                    On 7/31/13 8:26 AM, ken wrote:
                     
                    Thank you! For any team that has nothing better to do than discuss animal metaphors, I'll offer this: The PO is the customer, you're the vendor, if you're not 'selling' what the customer wants then the customer will find another vendor. 

                    My perspective, it keeps me focused. 

                    Ken

                    Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.

                    From: Richard Hundhausen
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:12 AM
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                     

                    +1

                     

                    Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two years ago.

                     

                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Häusler
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:20 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                     

                     

                    It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
                    are definitely pigs.

                    More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

                    Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
                    are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
                    be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

                    On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
                    >
                    > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
                    >
                    > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
                    >
                    > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
                    >
                    > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
                    >
                    > Thanks in advance.



                  • Joy Kelsey
                    Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present -- Regards Joy Kelsey
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013
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                      Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                      --



                      Regards
                      Joy Kelsey

                    • Adam Sroka
                      Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs?
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013
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                        Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs? 


                        On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Joy Kelsey <joyjy.kelsey@...> wrote:
                         

                        Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                        --



                        Regards
                        Joy Kelsey


                      • Adam Sroka
                        P.S. you have to slit the pig s throat. The chicken you just grab and shake.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013
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                          P.S. you have to slit the pig's throat. The chicken you just grab and shake. 


                          On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                          Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs? 


                          On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Joy Kelsey <joyjy.kelsey@...> wrote:
                           

                          Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                          --



                          Regards
                          Joy Kelsey



                        • Michael Vizdos
                          Hey now. Stop dogging on the chickens and pigs. Kidding. Heh. Just coming from a guy that has created some personas over the years for them with the comic
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013
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                            Hey now.

                            Stop dogging on the chickens and pigs.

                            Kidding.

                            Heh.

                            Just coming from a guy that has created some personas over the years for them with the comic strips at www.implementingscrum.com.

                            There are some good posts there about this topic. Remember. The Chicken and Pig story is just that. A story.

                            Everyone is a person and deserves respect.

                            The comics and blog postings may be almost classic scrum historic stuff but many of the things I wrote over the many many years there are still applicable today.

                            I may resurface some of the old strips into newer discussions. But it's scary how many of the postings and comic strips still ring true for people today.

                            Thank you.

                            Mike Vizdos
                            www.michaelvizdos.com/contact
                            Www.implementingscrum.com

                            On Aug 2, 2013 9:41 AM, "Adam Sroka" <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                             

                            P.S. you have to slit the pig's throat. The chicken you just grab and shake. 


                            On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                            Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs? 


                            On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Joy Kelsey <joyjy.kelsey@...> wrote:
                             

                            Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                            --



                            Regards
                            Joy Kelsey



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