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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

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  • Alexander Kriegisch
    The short answer (without ten paragraphs of background info I could provide now if there was not an imminent meeting): The PO is definitely a pig - unless she
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
      The short answer (without ten paragraphs of background info I could provide now if there was not an imminent meeting): The PO is definitely a pig - unless she really abuses her role or does not take it seriously.

      Alexander Kriegisch
      http://scrum-master.de



      Am 31.07.2013 um 15:06 schrieb "scrumnoob" <scrumnoob@...>:

      > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
      >
      > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
      >
      > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
      >
      > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
      >
      > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
      >
      > Thanks in advance.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
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    • Markus Gaertner
      Current terminilogy is that the Development Team, ScrumMaster and ProductOwner together form the Scrum Team. Beyond that, there are multiple ways you can
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
        Current terminilogy is that the Development Team, ScrumMaster and ProductOwner together form the Scrum Team.

        Beyond that, there are multiple ways you can "live" the ProductOwner role, as my colleague Stefan Roock noticed a while ago:

        Best
        Markus


        On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
        I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum.  I am also a big advocate of the practice.

        However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.

        However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.

        I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them.  Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team?  Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?

        Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.

        Thanks in advance.



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      • Kurt Häusler
        It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs are definitely pigs. More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
          It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
          are definitely pigs.

          More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

          Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
          are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
          be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

          On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
          >
          > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
          >
          > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
          >
          > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
          >
          > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
          >
          > Thanks in advance.
        • scrumnoob
          Hi Kurt Good question in terms of what else is going on. The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this. I struggle with
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
            Hi Kurt

            Good question in terms of what else is going on.

            The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this.

            I struggle with this for 2 reasons:

            1. The person who provided the feedback is well regarded (I wont state their name here) within the field

            2. Regardless of what you are told you should be reading around the subject and open to challenge. AFAIK the Scrum framework tells you what the 3 roles are, thats the starting point for most other things.

            The coach is back with the team later this month so Mrs Noob hopes to bring up the subject then, as tactfully as she can.

            Thanks for the feedback.

            S


            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...> wrote:
            >
            > It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
            > are definitely pigs.
            >
            > More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?
            >
            > Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
            > are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
            > be something between the lines that isn't quite right.
            >
            > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
            > >
            > > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
            > >
            > > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
            > >
            > > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
            > >
            > > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
            > >
            > > Thanks in advance.
            >
          • Alexander Kriegisch
            If the coach is worth anything, the team cannot seriously think that the PO is a chicken, unless he behaves like one. Alexander Kriegisch
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
              If the coach is worth anything, the team cannot seriously think that the PO is a chicken, unless he behaves like one.

              Alexander Kriegisch
              http://scrum-master.de


              Am 31.07.2013 um 16:05 schrieb "scrumnoob" <scrumnoob@...>:

              > Good question in terms of what else is going on.
              >
              > The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this.
              >
              > I struggle with this for 2 reasons:
              >
              > 1. The person who provided the feedback is well regarded (I wont state their name here) within the field
              >
              > 2. Regardless of what you are told you should be reading around the subject and open to challenge. AFAIK the Scrum framework tells you what the 3 roles are, thats the starting point for most other things.
              >
              > The coach is back with the team later this month so Mrs Noob hopes to bring up the subject then, as tactfully as she can.
              >
              >
              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
              >> are definitely pigs.
              >>
              >> More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?
              >>
              >> Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
              >> are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
              >> be something between the lines that isn't quite right.
              >>
              >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
              >>>
              >>> However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
              >>>
              >>> However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
              >>>
              >>> I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
              >>>
              >>> Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
              >>>
              >>> Thanks in advance.
            • scrumnoob
              I agree, and can only think they have latched onto, or misinterpreted something that has been said, I dont believe they would have been coached/trained this
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
                I agree, and can only think they have latched onto, or misinterpreted something that has been said, I dont believe they would have been coached/trained this way.



                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Kriegisch <Kriegisch@...> wrote:
                >
                > If the coach is worth anything, the team cannot seriously think that the PO is a chicken, unless he behaves like one.
                >
                > Alexander Kriegisch
                > http://scrum-master.de
                >
                >
                > Am 31.07.2013 um 16:05 schrieb "scrumnoob" <scrumnoob@...>:
                >
                > > Good question in terms of what else is going on.
                > >
                > > The only feedback they get is the training/coaching they have had tells them this.
                > >
                > > I struggle with this for 2 reasons:
                > >
                > > 1. The person who provided the feedback is well regarded (I wont state their name here) within the field
                > >
                > > 2. Regardless of what you are told you should be reading around the subject and open to challenge. AFAIK the Scrum framework tells you what the 3 roles are, thats the starting point for most other things.
                > >
                > > The coach is back with the team later this month so Mrs Noob hopes to bring up the subject then, as tactfully as she can.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
                > >> are definitely pigs.
                > >>
                > >> More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?
                > >>
                > >> Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
                > >> are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
                > >> be something between the lines that isn't quite right.
                > >>
                > >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@> wrote:
                > >>>
                > >>> I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
                > >>>
                > >>> However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
                > >>>
                > >>> However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
                > >>>
                > >>> I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
                > >>>
                > >>> Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
                > >>>
                > >>> Thanks in advance.
                >
              • Richard Hundhausen
                +1 Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013

                  +1

                   

                  Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two years ago.

                   

                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Häusler
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:20 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                   

                   

                  It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
                  are definitely pigs.

                  More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

                  Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
                  are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
                  be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

                  On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
                  >
                  > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
                  >
                  > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
                  >
                  > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
                  >
                  > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance.

                • ken
                  Thank you! For any team that has nothing better to do than discuss animal metaphors, I ll offer this: The PO is the customer, you re the vendor, if you re not
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
                    Thank you! For any team that has nothing better to do than discuss animal metaphors, I'll offer this: The PO is the customer, you're the vendor, if you're not 'selling' what the customer wants then the customer will find another vendor. 

                    My perspective, it keeps me focused. 

                    Ken

                    Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.

                    From: Richard Hundhausen
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:12 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Reply To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                     

                    +1

                     

                    Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two years ago.

                     

                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Häusler
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:20 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                     

                     

                    It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
                    are definitely pigs.

                    More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

                    Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
                    are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
                    be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

                    On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
                    >
                    > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
                    >
                    > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
                    >
                    > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
                    >
                    > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
                    >
                    > Thanks in advance.


                  • Peter Trudelle
                    Even back in the barnyard days of Scrum, the PO was the pig of the product, and the SM was the pig of the process. I d want the team to get some coaching
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 31, 2013
                      Even back in the 'barnyard' days of Scrum, the PO was the pig of the product, and the SM was the pig of the process.  I'd want the team to get some coaching based on Ken & Jeff's latest version, which I'm sure will continue to avoid such polarizing metaphors.

                      Peter

                      On 7/31/13 8:26 AM, ken wrote:
                       
                      Thank you! For any team that has nothing better to do than discuss animal metaphors, I'll offer this: The PO is the customer, you're the vendor, if you're not 'selling' what the customer wants then the customer will find another vendor. 

                      My perspective, it keeps me focused. 

                      Ken

                      Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.

                      From: Richard Hundhausen
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:12 AM
                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                       

                      +1

                       

                      Pigs and chickens were dropped from the Scrum Guide two years ago.

                       

                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Häusler
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:20 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner is a pig, right?

                       

                       

                      It is a horrible thing, this pigs and chickens distinction, but POs
                      are definitely pigs.

                      More importantly, what difference in this specific context would it make?

                      Why do the team say with relish that she is a chicken? I think they
                      are wrong, but what situation made them want to say that? There could
                      be something between the lines that isn't quite right.

                      On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:06 PM, scrumnoob <scrumnoob@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I have been out of development for 15 months or so but try to keep abreast of latest thinking and I still work in an organisation that uses Scrum. I am also a big advocate of the practice.
                      >
                      > However, my partner has started working as a Product Analyst at a start up. she takes on the role of the PO for the team.
                      >
                      > However the team say (with relish) that she is a chicken (this is probably a bit of a tired metaphor now I guess, but the principle sticks) and that in so far as the coaching they have recieved is concerned this is how it works.
                      >
                      > I am struggling with this, to the point where I want to visit their offices and have a chat with them. Has the world moved on from the PO being one of the three roles "in" the team? Does anyone else work this way, or can give me some valid rationale for working this way?
                      >
                      > Any feedback welcome, I would like to give my other half some more thoughts from the community to help her change things, or understand why it might be appropriate.
                      >
                      > Thanks in advance.



                    • Joy Kelsey
                      Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present -- Regards Joy Kelsey
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013
                        Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                        --



                        Regards
                        Joy Kelsey

                      • Adam Sroka
                        Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs?
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013
                          Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs? 


                          On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Joy Kelsey <joyjy.kelsey@...> wrote:
                           

                          Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                          --



                          Regards
                          Joy Kelsey


                        • Adam Sroka
                          P.S. you have to slit the pig s throat. The chicken you just grab and shake.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013
                            P.S. you have to slit the pig's throat. The chicken you just grab and shake. 


                            On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                            Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs? 


                            On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Joy Kelsey <joyjy.kelsey@...> wrote:
                             

                            Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                            --



                            Regards
                            Joy Kelsey



                          • Michael Vizdos
                            Hey now. Stop dogging on the chickens and pigs. Kidding. Heh. Just coming from a guy that has created some personas over the years for them with the comic
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 2, 2013

                              Hey now.

                              Stop dogging on the chickens and pigs.

                              Kidding.

                              Heh.

                              Just coming from a guy that has created some personas over the years for them with the comic strips at www.implementingscrum.com.

                              There are some good posts there about this topic. Remember. The Chicken and Pig story is just that. A story.

                              Everyone is a person and deserves respect.

                              The comics and blog postings may be almost classic scrum historic stuff but many of the things I wrote over the many many years there are still applicable today.

                              I may resurface some of the old strips into newer discussions. But it's scary how many of the postings and comic strips still ring true for people today.

                              Thank you.

                              Mike Vizdos
                              www.michaelvizdos.com/contact
                              Www.implementingscrum.com

                              On Aug 2, 2013 9:41 AM, "Adam Sroka" <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                               

                              P.S. you have to slit the pig's throat. The chicken you just grab and shake. 


                              On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                              Somehow I got my CSM, CSP, and CSD without ever understanding this metaphor. Could it be because wings are way tastier than eggs? 


                              On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Joy Kelsey <joyjy.kelsey@...> wrote:
                               

                              Did they get confused where the PO is a chicken at the Daily Scrum?? But a Pig in all other cases...in the past not the present

                              --



                              Regards
                              Joy Kelsey



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