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Re: Re: [scrumdevelop ment] Convince the te am of writing unit te sts even if you have got integration tests

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  • bigbroesel
    Thanks a lot for your valuable responses. I know that this is a little bit off topic for scrum… but I received answers which will help me! Now I will answer
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 26, 2013
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      Thanks a lot for your valuable responses. I know that this is a little
      bit off topic for scrum… but I received answers which will help me!

      Now I will answer your questions regarding our process:
      @Paul: integration tests run after every jenkins build, triggered by
      each check-in. So checking in will give you feedback in at least 2 hours
      (if the build is not broken).

      @Markus: Of course I will show those team members, who do not want to
      write unit tests, that it will help. And I also will work especially
      with those, who support writing unit tests and see how valuable it is.

      @Charles: the relative number of production bugs is ok. Code coverage
      unfortunately does not run since half a year. I guess the number of WTFs
      is high. But it seems that writing unit tests is not a solution for
      that. And one reason for not writing unit tests is because it is so hard
      to test the legacy code and that needs such a lot of time…

      @Adam: Good list. Thanks

      @Ron: The defect list is not quite short. The complexity of the
      environment is extremely high. We have some weeks hardening before each
      release to fix bugs… and the coverage of the essentially code is
      definitely not 100%. Also the integration tests take half an hour… but
      there is an uptime for build and some other tests which lasts 45
      minutes. The developers are able to execute those tests on the local
      environment… but the result might be differ to Jenkins ones. At least it
      is not immediately clear where it is broken and who is responsible.

      @David: even good points. Thanks.

      @Steve: For me it is no question to deliver a few quality features
      instead of a lot low quality code. For some of the dev team the latter
      point seems to be better. I don't know why…

      Martin



      Am 25.06.2013 um Uhr haben Sie geschrieben:
      > I know this isn't politically correct. However, I have used it and
      you'd be
      > surprised at the reactions you get.
      >
      > Tell your developer's that if they do not want to have unit tests then
      they will
      > have to pay $1,000.00 for every defect that results from the code
      they've tossed
      > over the wall to the test team, regardless of the severity and
      regardless if
      > it's caused by "old" or "legacy" code as they touched it and it now
      belongs to
      > them.
      >
      > See how many takers you have … my team changed their minds real quick
      and
      > started unit testing.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Steve
      >
      >
      >
      > On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:31 PM, Markus Gaertner <mgaertne@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Hi Martin,
      > >
      > > if you happen to be able to argue based on logic, hand each of them
      a copy of
      > Weinberg's Perfect Software... and other illusions about testing. Make
      sure to
      > point them out especially to the Composition Fallacy:
      > > "Skipping unit testing as redundant because system testing will
      catch all the
      > bugs." (this also applies to tests in folklore referred to as
      "integration
      > tests" (on a side note: I hate that term, and we should get rid of it,
      but I
      > don't have a better name to offer, unfortunately.)).
      > >
      > > If your developers no longer constrain their thinking by logic, then
      I would
      > show them over a long period of time that writing unit tests helps me
      in the
      > long run deal with those new requirements that come up every time.
      Simple work
      > the way you are convinced, and show them in the long run that you can
      still
      > deliver based on your unit tests. Stop arguing, start doing.
      > >
      > > Best
      > > Markus
      > >
      > >
      > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 8:53 AM, <m.schneider@...>
      wrote:
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > I'm working with a new team and try to convince the team members
      that it
      > > is important to write unit tests and have got covered at least
      methods
      > > which consist of logic. Also it is important (for me) to write unit
      > > tests for existing code if you touch it and it is not covered yet.
      > > Unfortunately some of the team members tell me that they do not want
      to
      > > write unit tests because we have got integration tests and those
      will
      > > test the correctness of the code and with that make unit tests
      > > unnecessary.
      > >
      > > What can I tell those guys why it is important to write unit tests
      even
      > > if you have got integration tests?
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Martin
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --
      > > Dipl.-Inform. Markus Gärtner
      > > Author of ATDD by Example - A Practical Guide to Acceptance
      Test-Driven
      > Development
      > >
      > > http://www.shino.de/blog
      > > http://www.mgaertne.de
      > > http://www.it-agile.de
      > > Twitter: @mgaertne
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
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