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Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity

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  • Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trai
    ... I wouldn t bother reading this article. There s one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to counting stories because an ignorant
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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      > Here's something you may have not been looking for.

      I wouldn't bother reading this article.

      There's one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to "counting stories" because an ignorant manager thinks that velocity==productivity.  What's to stop the manager from asking the team to "go faster" by finishing a higher story count each week?

      Seems like the root cause was never addressed, and that's sad.

      It's also funny that the guy the author quotes responds in the first comment to disagree with him.

      -------
      Charles Bradley
      Professional Scrum Trainer
      Scrum Coach-in-Chief
      ScrumCrazy.com




      From: Aeden Jameson <aeden.jameson@...>
      To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:58 PM
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



      While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

      http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



      On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
       
      I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

      Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

      The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

      Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

      I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

      Jesse


      --
      Cheers,
      Aeden
       
      GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
      Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
      Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful





    • Jesse Houwing
      I think I agree, and it won t help me now. Client in case still wants to do a lot of long term planning and doesn t yet believe in the waste being created by
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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        I think I agree, and it won't help me now. Client in case still wants to do a lot of long term planning and doesn't yet believe in the waste being created by constantly looking far ahead and doing all kinds of reestimation and simulations...

        Part one will be trying to get that out of the way.

        Still a long way from getting the trust in place to remove this 'need' to map everything out till the bottom of the backlog...

        Sent from my Windows Phone

        From: Aeden Jameson
        Sent: ‎17-‎6-‎2013 18:42
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



        While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

        http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



        On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
         

        I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

        Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

        The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

        Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

        I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

        Jesse



        --
        Cheers,
        Aeden
         
        GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
        Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
        Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful



      • Jesse Houwing
        Though there is some truth in the story, however flawed... Still, doesn t solve my problem 😉... Does highlight another one of the issues. Sent from my
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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          Though there is some truth in the story, however flawed... Still, doesn't solve my problem 😉... Does highlight another one of the issues.

          Sent from my Windows Phone

          From: Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach
          Sent: ‎17-‎6-‎2013 20:50
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



          > Here's something you may have not been looking for.

          I wouldn't bother reading this article.

          There's one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to "counting stories" because an ignorant manager thinks that velocity==productivity.  What's to stop the manager from asking the team to "go faster" by finishing a higher story count each week?

          Seems like the root cause was never addressed, and that's sad.

          It's also funny that the guy the author quotes responds in the first comment to disagree with him.

          -------
          Charles Bradley
          Professional Scrum Trainer
          Scrum Coach-in-Chief
          ScrumCrazy.com




          From: Aeden Jameson <aeden.jameson@...>
          To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:58 PM
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



          While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

          http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



          On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
           
          I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

          Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

          The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

          Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

          I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

          Jesse


          --
          Cheers,
          Aeden
           
          GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
          Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
          Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful







        • Pierre Neis
          still my favorite http://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Estimating-Planning-Mike-Cohn/dp/0131479415 Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen, *Pierre E.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
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            Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen,

            Pierre E. Neis, psm, cspo, csp 
            Scrum/Lean Coach - Senior Management Consultant



            19 place Bleech |L-7610 Larochette | Luxembourg
            M: +352 661 727 867

            email:  pierre.neis@...
            web:    http://wecompany.wordpress.com/ http://thescrumcoach.wordpress.com/
            Meet with mehttp://meetwith.me/pierreneis
             

            about.me LinkedIn
            Contact me: Skype pierre.neis


            On 18 June 2013 00:04, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
             

            Though there is some truth in the story, however flawed... Still, doesn't solve my problem 😉... Does highlight another one of the issues.

            Sent from my Windows Phone

            From: Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach
            Sent: ‎17-‎6-‎2013 20:50
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



            > Here's something you may have not been looking for.

            I wouldn't bother reading this article.

            There's one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to "counting stories" because an ignorant manager thinks that velocity==productivity.  What's to stop the manager from asking the team to "go faster" by finishing a higher story count each week?

            Seems like the root cause was never addressed, and that's sad.

            It's also funny that the guy the author quotes responds in the first comment to disagree with him.

            -------
            Charles Bradley
            Professional Scrum Trainer
            Scrum Coach-in-Chief
            ScrumCrazy.com




            From: Aeden Jameson <aeden.jameson@...>
            To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:58 PM
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



            While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

            http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



            On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
             
            I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

            Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

            The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

            Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

            I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

            Jesse


            --
            Cheers,
            Aeden
             
            GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
            Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
            Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful








          • Pierre Neis
            For long term, meta and retro planning helps. You can transform the traditional phasing in Release packs and have FUP through Release Burndown. Now it depends
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
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              For long term, meta and retro planning helps.
              You can transform the traditional phasing in Release packs and have FUP through Release Burndown.
              Now it depends how comfortable do you feel with this.


              Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen,

              Pierre E. Neis, psm, cspo, csp 
              Scrum/Lean Coach - Senior Management Consultant



              19 place Bleech |L-7610 Larochette | Luxembourg
              M: +352 661 727 867

              email:  pierre.neis@...
              web:    http://wecompany.wordpress.com/ http://thescrumcoach.wordpress.com/
              Meet with mehttp://meetwith.me/pierreneis
               

              about.me LinkedIn
              Contact me: Skype pierre.neis


              On 18 June 2013 00:02, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
               

              I think I agree, and it won't help me now. Client in case still wants to do a lot of long term planning and doesn't yet believe in the waste being created by constantly looking far ahead and doing all kinds of reestimation and simulations...

              Part one will be trying to get that out of the way.

              Still a long way from getting the trust in place to remove this 'need' to map everything out till the bottom of the backlog...


              Sent from my Windows Phone

              From: Aeden Jameson
              Sent: 17-6-2013 18:42

              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



              While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

              http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



              On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
               

              I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

              Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

              The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

              Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

              I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

              Jesse



              --
              Cheers,
              Aeden
               
              GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
              Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
              Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful




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