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User stories and relative complexity

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  • Jesse Houwing
    I m looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 12, 2013
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      I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

      Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

      The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

      Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

      I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

      Jesse
    • Aeden Jameson
      While I m sure you ll eventually find what you want to. Here s something you may have not been looking for. h
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 14, 2013
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        While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

        http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



        On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
         

        I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

        Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

        The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

        Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

        I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

        Jesse



        --
        Cheers,
        Aeden
         
        GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
        Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
        Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful

      • Dionatan Moura
        Hi, Agile Estimating and Planning, Mike Cohn. This book helped me a lot about estimating, I think it can help you too. -Dionatan Moura. ... -- Dionatan Moura
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 14, 2013
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          Hi,

          Agile Estimating and Planning, Mike Cohn. This book helped me a lot about estimating, I think it can help you too.

          -Dionatan Moura.


          On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:17 PM, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
           

          I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

          Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

          The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

          Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

          I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

          Jesse




          --
          Dionatan Moura
          about.me/dionatanmoura
        • Wouter Lagerweij
          Hi Jesse, I think Mike Cohn s Agile Estimation and Planning
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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            Hi Jesse,

            I think Mike Cohn's Agile Estimation and Planning is the default work in this area.

            For the particular discussion that you mention, it would probably be useful to look at things like Story Mapping (http://www.agileproductdesign.com/presentations/user_story_mapping/) and Feature Injection (http://www.infoq.com/articles/feature-injection-success). 
            In general, dependencies remain important, but depending on your architecture and organisational structure you can alleviate this with more independent user stories.

            Wouter


            On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
             

            I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

            Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

            The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

            Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

            I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

            Jesse




            --
            Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...
          • Jesse Houwing
            Thanks for the links, it matches my understanding. I ll go through the information to see which chapters to refer them to,
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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              Thanks for the links, it matches my understanding. I'll go through the information to see which chapters to refer them to,


              On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Wouter Lagerweij <wouter@...> wrote:


              Hi Jesse,

              I think Mike Cohn's Agile Estimation and Planning is the default work in this area.

              For the particular discussion that you mention, it would probably be useful to look at things like Story Mapping (http://www.agileproductdesign.com/presentations/user_story_mapping/) and Feature Injection (http://www.infoq.com/articles/feature-injection-success). 
              In general, dependencies remain important, but depending on your architecture and organisational structure you can alleviate this with more independent user stories.

              Wouter


              On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
               

              I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

              Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

              The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

              Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

              I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

              Jesse




              --
              Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...



            • Steve Bockman
              Hi Jesse, I ve written a book called *Predictability *which has a relative estimation technique at its core. You might find it useful:
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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                Hi Jesse,

                I've written a book called Predictability which has a relative estimation technique at its core. You might find it useful:

                http://www.amazon.com/dp/1482048582

                --Steve Bockman
              • Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trai
                ... I wouldn t bother reading this article. There s one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to counting stories because an ignorant
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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                  > Here's something you may have not been looking for.

                  I wouldn't bother reading this article.

                  There's one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to "counting stories" because an ignorant manager thinks that velocity==productivity.  What's to stop the manager from asking the team to "go faster" by finishing a higher story count each week?

                  Seems like the root cause was never addressed, and that's sad.

                  It's also funny that the guy the author quotes responds in the first comment to disagree with him.

                  -------
                  Charles Bradley
                  Professional Scrum Trainer
                  Scrum Coach-in-Chief
                  ScrumCrazy.com




                  From: Aeden Jameson <aeden.jameson@...>
                  To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:58 PM
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



                  While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

                  http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



                  On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
                   
                  I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

                  Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

                  The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

                  Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

                  I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

                  Jesse


                  --
                  Cheers,
                  Aeden
                   
                  GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
                  Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
                  Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful





                • Jesse Houwing
                  I think I agree, and it won t help me now. Client in case still wants to do a lot of long term planning and doesn t yet believe in the waste being created by
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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                    I think I agree, and it won't help me now. Client in case still wants to do a lot of long term planning and doesn't yet believe in the waste being created by constantly looking far ahead and doing all kinds of reestimation and simulations...

                    Part one will be trying to get that out of the way.

                    Still a long way from getting the trust in place to remove this 'need' to map everything out till the bottom of the backlog...

                    Sent from my Windows Phone

                    From: Aeden Jameson
                    Sent: ‎17-‎6-‎2013 18:42
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



                    While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

                    http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



                    On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
                     

                    I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

                    Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

                    The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

                    Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

                    I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

                    Jesse



                    --
                    Cheers,
                    Aeden
                     
                    GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
                    Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
                    Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful



                  • Jesse Houwing
                    Though there is some truth in the story, however flawed... Still, doesn t solve my problem 😉... Does highlight another one of the issues. Sent from my
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
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                      Though there is some truth in the story, however flawed... Still, doesn't solve my problem 😉... Does highlight another one of the issues.

                      Sent from my Windows Phone

                      From: Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach
                      Sent: ‎17-‎6-‎2013 20:50
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



                      > Here's something you may have not been looking for.

                      I wouldn't bother reading this article.

                      There's one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to "counting stories" because an ignorant manager thinks that velocity==productivity.  What's to stop the manager from asking the team to "go faster" by finishing a higher story count each week?

                      Seems like the root cause was never addressed, and that's sad.

                      It's also funny that the guy the author quotes responds in the first comment to disagree with him.

                      -------
                      Charles Bradley
                      Professional Scrum Trainer
                      Scrum Coach-in-Chief
                      ScrumCrazy.com




                      From: Aeden Jameson <aeden.jameson@...>
                      To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:58 PM
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



                      While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

                      http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



                      On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
                       
                      I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

                      Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

                      The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

                      Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

                      I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

                      Jesse


                      --
                      Cheers,
                      Aeden
                       
                      GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
                      Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
                      Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful







                    • Pierre Neis
                      still my favorite http://www.amazon.ca/Agile-Estimating-Planning-Mike-Cohn/dp/0131479415 Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen, *Pierre E.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
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                        Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen,

                        Pierre E. Neis, psm, cspo, csp 
                        Scrum/Lean Coach - Senior Management Consultant



                        19 place Bleech |L-7610 Larochette | Luxembourg
                        M: +352 661 727 867

                        email:  pierre.neis@...
                        web:    http://wecompany.wordpress.com/ http://thescrumcoach.wordpress.com/
                        Meet with mehttp://meetwith.me/pierreneis
                         

                        about.me LinkedIn
                        Contact me: Skype pierre.neis


                        On 18 June 2013 00:04, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
                         

                        Though there is some truth in the story, however flawed... Still, doesn't solve my problem 😉... Does highlight another one of the issues.

                        Sent from my Windows Phone

                        From: Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach
                        Sent: ‎17-‎6-‎2013 20:50
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



                        > Here's something you may have not been looking for.

                        I wouldn't bother reading this article.

                        There's one major flaw in it.  The team goes from using story points to "counting stories" because an ignorant manager thinks that velocity==productivity.  What's to stop the manager from asking the team to "go faster" by finishing a higher story count each week?

                        Seems like the root cause was never addressed, and that's sad.

                        It's also funny that the guy the author quotes responds in the first comment to disagree with him.

                        -------
                        Charles Bradley
                        Professional Scrum Trainer
                        Scrum Coach-in-Chief
                        ScrumCrazy.com




                        From: Aeden Jameson <aeden.jameson@...>
                        To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:58 PM
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



                        While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

                        http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



                        On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
                         
                        I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

                        Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

                        The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

                        Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

                        I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

                        Jesse


                        --
                        Cheers,
                        Aeden
                         
                        GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
                        Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
                        Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful








                      • Pierre Neis
                        For long term, meta and retro planning helps. You can transform the traditional phasing in Release packs and have FUP through Release Burndown. Now it depends
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
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                          For long term, meta and retro planning helps.
                          You can transform the traditional phasing in Release packs and have FUP through Release Burndown.
                          Now it depends how comfortable do you feel with this.


                          Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen,

                          Pierre E. Neis, psm, cspo, csp 
                          Scrum/Lean Coach - Senior Management Consultant



                          19 place Bleech |L-7610 Larochette | Luxembourg
                          M: +352 661 727 867

                          email:  pierre.neis@...
                          web:    http://wecompany.wordpress.com/ http://thescrumcoach.wordpress.com/
                          Meet with mehttp://meetwith.me/pierreneis
                           

                          about.me LinkedIn
                          Contact me: Skype pierre.neis


                          On 18 June 2013 00:02, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
                           

                          I think I agree, and it won't help me now. Client in case still wants to do a lot of long term planning and doesn't yet believe in the waste being created by constantly looking far ahead and doing all kinds of reestimation and simulations...

                          Part one will be trying to get that out of the way.

                          Still a long way from getting the trust in place to remove this 'need' to map everything out till the bottom of the backlog...


                          Sent from my Windows Phone

                          From: Aeden Jameson
                          Sent: 17-6-2013 18:42

                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User stories and relative complexity



                          While I'm sure you'll eventually find what you want to. Here's something you may have not been looking for. 

                          http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/stop-using-story-points/



                          On Wednesday, June 12, 2013, Jesse Houwing wrote:
                           

                          I'm looking for a good book or article which explains the process of estaimating (and re-estimating) user stories using relative estimation/story points.

                          Especially around backlog ordering, dependencies between stories and whether to take the benefits of re-use into account in this context.

                          The stakeholder argues that in classic estimation he had much more insights into dependencies between stories and could thus plan his releases much better. He'd like the backlog fulle re-estimated each time the order changes or a dependent story changes.

                          Instead of talking to the hand, I'd like some good whitepapers or practices that clearly explain the differences between the approaches one might take to relative estimation ans writing of story points.

                          I've got a pretty good idea on how I'd like to do it, but I can't find the handholds to get this guy on board. He asked for readign material, so at least I have that :).

                          Jesse



                          --
                          Cheers,
                          Aeden
                           
                          GitHub: https://github.com/aedenj
                          Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/aedenjameson
                          Blah Blah Blah: http://www.twitter.com/daliful




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