Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: CONCERN: over continuing Schisming/Fragmentation of Scrum & Agile
- Hi,I recommend reading "Tacit and Explicit Knowledge" on the background for getting from what Collins calls pattern 5 tacit knowledge to explicit knowledge.To me, we need to explore this topic more, but we also need to make sure we are not dropping a dish-washer at a folk which needs the concepts of fluent water, power supply, and maybe dish in order to use it.Best MarkusP.S.: I hope that wasn't too harsh.
On 18.04.2013, at 23:23, "Doug" <dshelton94501@...> wrote:Mark:
I think in a previous response to a post of mine, you'd make it clear of your - lets say - "lack of faith in effectiveness" of trying to simplify an agile approach to a series of pictures (a La the schematics for SAFe), so I detect that your comment on this post is obviously in the same vein. So - re "One True Agile Way" - of course I agree that there probably is **not** such a thing - at least not insofar as you are characterizing it - i.e., implying a rigid set of "one size fits all" unchanging rules & processes that in itself could be considered "anti-agile". HOWEVER: I Do believe that common roles, overall **Frameworks** (within which flexibility & differences to "fit" particular scenarios and needs could be defined, perhaps via example scenarios and types of criteria) Could (and really Should) be defined & developed, to avoid the profliferation of directly "competing" frameworks and roles and the resulting confusion to the businesses that these frameworks/processes/approaches are designed to help. I do Not think this objective in any way implies that agile frameworks, processes, and roles will Not(or Should Not) continue to change and evolve (and after all, such a conclusion isn't rocket science - its been true of just about all technologies and processes in all of **my** lifetime).
Now - re the "getting agile leaders together to discuss" - OK, I acknowledge the somewhat humorous but at the same time perhaps sad truth of what you stated. But I'm also detecting that there is an underlying incentive to deny the value of going thru this effort simply because of the "pain" involved in hashing thru such subject matter (as opposed to truly valid arguments disputing the value of the effort I'm proposing). BUT in any case: C'Mon Folks! You all would be the first ones to agree that trying to work thru such issues (if you can even get to the point where there is agreement on at least **some** value in doing so) in an offline blog forum is NOT the **right** approach - so basically what we've all produced here in this forum to date is essentially just "word salad" - going nowhere. How about that abstract concept of "really getting agile" and getting together face-to-face to work out such issues? [Pardon me - but only a little - my sarcastic/cynical attitude here]. The Scrum Alliance Gathering (or similar such forums) would seem to offer the ideal opportunity to do just that.
I believe at this point I may have exhausted my available energy to push this issue/effort any further, despite my firm conviction of the value of doing so. Therefore I'll drop this issue on the forums if it appears none of you agile leaders are willing to carry the torch on this - - -On the other hand, if some of you Do see value (and probably more to the point - can find a reserve of Energy - and Time - to devote to this - let me know and I'll try and keep the ball rolling.
--- In email@example.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
Doug - thanks for the recent promotion of influencer, I will be sure to
tell my wife that have influence its sure to get a smile.
Your email makes two assumptions
- There is one "true" agile way
- That Ken, Jeff, Allan, David, Ron, Adam, Dean, Charles, I, etc could
get together in a room and agree on anything :-) I wouldn't be shocked if
there were fisticuffs.
I don't think there is one "true" agile way nor do I want there to be.
Different competing sets of ideas are a healthy sign. Learning about and
using Kanban has changed the way I use and understand Scrum. Studying
behavioural psychology has had a similar effect. Part of what I love about
this community is that we're always discovering new ideas and sharing them.
Sometimes these new ideas led to new approaches the focus on flow leading
to Kanban. Other times they cause us to make small changes (my own work).
Either way its good that there is competition.
The only bad thing is the hyperbola in the marketing that some people use -
my approach is better, than your approach. My approach scales and yours
I've even learned some things from studying SaFe (pictures are easy to
sell, but are poor models of reality). So I continue to welcome a messy
marketplace of ideas and approaches.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Doug <dshelton94501@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 5339
Adam, Mark, Charles, and Ron:
You guys have been in the business of agile consulting far longer than
I've dipped my fingers into it, so - going out on a limb here/sticking my
neck out (pick your favorite metaphor), I want to make an observation about
your "combined discussion" here:
While the back and forth discussion on this topic and forum is
**interesting** - it really has the flavor/smell of defeatism - essentially
along the lines of thowing ones hands up in the air and saying "Well, it is
what it is, what the heck can ya do??" - and furthermore, doesn't really
seem to be "going anywhere" (an least not toward any actionable, concrete
solutions). Also, the initial discussion has "evolved" - to put it kindly,
somewhat down a (potential) rabbit hole of "can agile suceed in large
organizations" - related, I grant you, but not quite the same as the issues
of "agile divergence/schisming" and "Agile Scaling" I originally raised.
SO - where am I going with this observation (you ask)? Simply this: Is
there any possibility of agile leaders such as yourselves directly tackling
- with a "positive, it may at least be possible" attitude & perspective -
these issues of scaling and agile divergence, in
directed/focused/facilitated face-to-face real-time conversations - perhaps
in some kind of "Joint conference" focused on such issues? AND (pressing
for even more here), perhaps including Not only those agile leaders among
you mostly tapped into/supporting the Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org, but
also including some of those "**other** agile folks" promoting their own
brand (and admittedly, associated consulting practices) of agile (a la Dean
Leffingwell, Alan Shalloway, David Anderson, etc.)?
Although I am getting more "advanced in years", to put it kindly,
nevertheless I continue to retain a certain degree of optimism (if not
Naviety) in the hope that folks want to (and should want to) work toward
unified frameworks, processes, and practices in the agile arena. That
doesn't at all suggest there isn't any vale in continuing to evolve, ad to,
and even change agile approaches over tinme - but I'm completely convinced
that such efforts would be to the benefit to businesses - small, medium, or
large sized, who won't have to "guess and pick" among alternatives, or
potentially worse, "mix and match" in a way that is ultimately
self-defeating because the principles and approaches of such mix and match
may potentially undermine the benefits.
You guys are the leaders - whatdaya say?
R. Douglas "Doug" Shelton, PMP, CSM, ITILv3
Yahoo IM: dshelton94501
Linked-In URL: http://www.linkedin.com/in/rdouglasshelton
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- Thanks a lot, George.Rgds-AN
On 4/20/13 10:16 AM, A Narasimhan wrote:
> Recently there was a mail on Agile Scaling by Ron Jeffries which went
> like this:
> ‘Collaboration works in a team but not so much in a building...’ etc.
> There were several points covered in that mail on scaling. I somehow
> deleted that mail.
> Can someone re-send the mail please...You could also send it to my
> personal mail
> mailto:an.narasimhan%40yahoo.co.in <mailto:mailto:an.narasimhan%40yahoo.co.in>
Every email has a trailer that includes:
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