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Re: [scrumdevelopment] release planning

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  • George Dinwiddie
    Richard, ... In such situations, I don t know anything better to do than to fall back on traditional estimation methods: take your best guess, triple the
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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      Richard,

      On 3/4/13 4:38 PM, Richard Griffiths wrote:
      >
      >
      > Oh dear
      >
      > Overheard this week – we’d like you to put together a release plan for
      > project x. No problem says I, going on about how we can size at the epic
      > level, the cone of uncertainty, and how it will change. I’ll get the
      > team on it. Ah, we want you, the BA and architect to size it as it will
      > be quicker. Blank look follows.
      >
      > I am still both annoyed and confused and the merlot ain’t helping.

      In such situations, I don't know anything better to do than to fall back
      on traditional estimation methods: take your best guess, triple the
      number, and increment the unit of measurement. E.g., if it looks like 6
      weeks work at first glance, tell them 18 months. It's surprising how
      accurate that is. :-)

      - George

      --
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Mark Levison
      Ken Collier who I know through Cutter has done some work with clients on this. At one stage he threatened to write a book on it. Cheers Mark ... -- Cheers Mark
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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        Ken Collier who I know through Cutter has done some work with clients on this. At one stage he threatened to write a book on it.

        Cheers
        Mark

        Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach wrote:
         
        I have a client who is considering using Scrum in Data Warehousing(I won't be involved in that).  He knows how to use Google, but I was wondering if anyone had any *highly recommended resources*  for using Scrum in DW(books, blogs, ec).  He is fully aware of the Hughes book(which got a negative review from someone I trust), and I also have some info on Scott Ambler's work in this area.

        Anything else that you would *highly recommend*?
         
        -------
        Charles Bradley
        Scrum Coach-in-Chief
        ScrumCrazy.com



        --
        Cheers
        Mark Levison
        Agile Pain Relief Consulting | Writing
        Proud Sponsor of Agile Tour Gatineau Ottawa Nov 28, Toronto 26 and Montreal
        24
      • theropas@q.com
        It might also help to switch from Merlot to old granddad Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID ... It might also help to switch from Merlot to old
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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          It might also help to switch from Merlot to old granddad

          Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


          George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

          Richard,

          On 3/4/13 4:38 PM, Richard Griffiths wrote:
          >
          >
          > Oh dear
          >
          > Overheard this week – we’d like you to put together a release plan for
          > project x. No problem says I, going on about how we can size at the epic
          > level, the cone of uncertainty, and how it will change.  I’ll get the
          > team on it. Ah, we want you, the BA and architect to size it as it will
          > be quicker. Blank look follows.
          >
          > I am still both annoyed and confused and the merlot ain’t helping.

          In such situations, I don't know anything better to do than to fall back
          on traditional estimation methods: take your best guess, triple the
          number, and increment the unit of measurement. E.g., if it looks like 6
          weeks work at first glance, tell them 18 months. It's surprising how
          accurate that is. :-)

            - George

          --
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
             * George Dinwiddie *                      http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
             Software Development                    http://www.idiacomputing.com
             Consultant and Coach                    http://www.agilemaryland.org
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------



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        • Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trai
          Or try Lee Henson s Rapid Release planning: http://www.agiledad.com/AgileMentor/RapidReleasePlanning.pdf You mostly just need slides 38-41.  Of course, this
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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            Or try Lee Henson's Rapid Release planning:
            http://www.agiledad.com/AgileMentor/RapidReleasePlanning.pdf

            You mostly just need slides 38-41. 

            Of course, this doesn't solve the root problem.  The merlot might.  :-)

            Just thought it might help to "sell" getting the whole team in a room to do it in an hour or two.
             
            -------
            Charles Bradley
            Scrum Coach-in-Chief
            ScrumCrazy.com




            From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 3:00 PM
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] release planning

            Richard,

            On 3/4/13 4:38 PM, Richard Griffiths wrote:
            >
            >
            > Oh dear
            >
            > Overheard this week – we’d like you to put together a release plan for
            > project x. No problem says I, going on about how we can size at the epic
            > level, the cone of uncertainty, and how it will change.  I’ll get the
            > team on it. Ah, we want you, the BA and architect to size it as it will
            > be quicker. Blank look follows.
            >
            > I am still both annoyed and confused and the merlot ain’t helping.

            In such situations, I don't know anything better to do than to fall back
            on traditional estimation methods: take your best guess, triple the
            number, and increment the unit of measurement. E.g., if it looks like 6
            weeks work at first glance, tell them 18 months. It's surprising how
            accurate that is. :-)

              - George

            --
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              * George Dinwiddie *                      http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              Software Development                    http://www.idiacomputing.com
              Consultant and Coach                    http://www.agilemaryland.org
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------



            ------------------------------------

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          • Richard Griffiths
            ... That was the originally suggested approach and will be done anyway, no matter what. I can’t get a sub-team to commit on behalf of the whole team.
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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              >Just thought it might help to "sell" getting the whole team in a room to do it in an hour or two.

               

              That was the originally suggested approach and will be done anyway, no matter what. I can’t get a sub-team to commit on behalf of the whole team. That’s a pile of *spherical objects*

               

              Excellent slides!

               

              --

              Richard

               

              Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy

            • Michael Vizdos
              ... never does. But as long as it is a good Merlot -- enjoy! Here is a cartoon that may make you smile (at least for now):
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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                ... never does.  But as long as it is a good Merlot -- enjoy!

                Here is a cartoon that may make you smile (at least for now):

                http://www.implementingscrum.com/2010/10/11/scrum-story-points-and-the-answers-to-the-universe/

                - mike vizdos


                On Monday, March 4, 2013, Richard Griffiths wrote:
                 

                Oh dear

                 

                Overheard this week – we’d like you to put together a release plan for project x. No problem says I, going on about how we can size at the epic level, the cone of uncertainty, and how it will change.  I’ll get the team on it. Ah, we want you, the BA and architect to size it as it will be quicker. Blank look follows.

                 

                I am still both annoyed and confused and the merlot ain’t helping.

                 

                --

                Richard

                 

                Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy



                --
                Thank you.

                - mike vizdos
                   www.michaelvizdos.com/contact

              • Richard Griffiths
                J -- Richard Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Vizdos
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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                  J

                   

                  --

                  Richard

                   

                  Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy

                   

                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Vizdos
                  Sent: 04 March 2013 10:31
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] release planning

                   

                   

                  ... never does.  But as long as it is a good Merlot -- enjoy!

                   

                  Here is a cartoon that may make you smile (at least for now):

                   

                  http://www.implementingscrum.com/2010/10/11/scrum-story-points-and-the-answers-to-the-universe/

                   

                  - mike vizdos



                  On Monday, March 4, 2013, Richard Griffiths wrote:

                   

                  Oh dear

                   

                  Overheard this week – we’d like you to put together a release plan for project x. No problem says I, going on about how we can size at the epic level, the cone of uncertainty, and how it will change.  I’ll get the team on it. Ah, we want you, the BA and architect to size it as it will be quicker. Blank look follows.

                   

                  I am still both annoyed and confused and the merlot ain’t helping.

                   

                  --

                  Richard

                   

                  Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy



                  --

                  Thank you.

                  - mike vizdos
                     www.michaelvizdos.com/contact

                   

                • Ryan Cromwell
                  And since now they know about the cone of uncertainty they won t have any misguided understandings about it s accuracy. Given a large enough estimate, your
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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                    And since now they know about the cone of uncertainty they won't have any misguided understandings about it's accuracy.  Given a large enough estimate, your bound to be within the margin of error.  

                    If they still feel the return will be worth it... now the team get's it's short at continually providing updated estimate ranges based on rubber & road.
                  • Nirmala Jegadheesan
                    I agree, the most uncertain, seemingly infinite task is Relase planning but keep in mind you need not COMPLETE it in first sitting. Make large stories, do
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 4, 2013
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                      I agree, the most uncertain, seemingly infinite task is "Relase planning" but keep in mind you need not "COMPLETE" it in first sitting. Make large stories, do 3 times the estimate and finish it soon. When working on sprint planning you can me more elaborate and accurate.
                      All the best!
                      Regards,
                      Nirmala

                      From: Richard Griffiths <richard@...>
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:08 AM
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] release planning
                       
                      Oh dear
                       
                      Overheard this week – we’d like you to put together a release plan for project x. No problem says I, going on about how we can size at the epic level, the cone of uncertainty, and how it will change.  I’ll get the team on it. Ah, we want you, the BA and architect to size it as it will be quicker. Blank look follows.
                       
                      I am still both annoyed and confused and the merlot ain’t helping.
                       
                      --
                      Richard
                       
                      Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy
                    • Cheng, Richard
                      I have heard good things about the Ken Collier book,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 6, 2013
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                        I also have some colleagues who are giving an Agile BI class in early April in the Washington, DC area.  If you are interested, take a look at http://agile-bi-dc.eventbrite.com/

                        Good luck,
                        ------------------------------
                        Richard K Cheng, CST, PMP, PMI-ACP
                        Principal & Agile Center of Excellence, Lead
                        Excella Consulting
                        richard.cheng@... 
                        703-967-8620
                        twitter: @RichardKCheng


                        From: Mark Levison <mark@...>
                        Reply-To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Monday, March 4, 2013 5:06 PM
                        To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum in Data Warehousing?

                         

                        Ken Collier who I know through Cutter has done some work with clients on this. At one stage he threatened to write a book on it.

                        Cheers
                        Mark

                        Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach wrote:

                         
                        I have a client who is considering using Scrum in Data Warehousing(I won't be involved in that).  He knows how to use Google, but I was wondering if anyone had any *highly recommended resources*  for using Scrum in DW(books, blogs, ec).  He is fully aware of the Hughes book(which got a negative review from someone I trust), and I also have some info on Scott Ambler's work in this area.

                        Anything else that you would *highly recommend*?
                         
                        -------
                        Charles Bradley
                        Scrum Coach-in-Chief
                        ScrumCrazy.com



                        --
                        Cheers
                        Mark Levison
                        Agile Pain Relief Consulting | Writing
                        Proud Sponsor of Agile Tour Gatineau Ottawa Nov 28, Toronto 26 and Montreal
                        24

                      • Richard Griffiths
                        All Interesting epic sizing meeting with the team today. We did relative sizing and then assigned them t-shirt values. Then we assigned them points based on
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 6, 2013
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                          All

                           

                          Interesting epic sizing meeting with the team today. We did relative sizing and then assigned them t-shirt values. Then we assigned them points based on planning poker multiplied by 10. Now I know there’s a chance of gaming the values, but some of the epics point sizes matched quite well with previous equivalent epics. The problem arose with larger epic sizes, which was unsurprising due to complexity and some of them being mixed buckets of work. A good first pass, giving us plenty of time to review the epics, split and start grooming the stories. The fact that stakeholders will probably have a heart attack is another matter.

                           

                          I’d be interested to see if people think it is worth sizing epics at the t-shirt level and then trying to map story points to them? I’ll be doing the same tomorrow with a more established team so will be interested to see the difference.

                           

                          --

                          Richard

                           

                          Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy

                        • Gary Brown
                          ... From a much different context: Fast is fine, accuracy is final. - Wyatt Earp 8^) GB. ... This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 6, 2013
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                            Quoting Richard Griffiths <richard@...>:

                            >
                            > Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy
                            >
                            >

                            From a much different context:

                            Fast is fine, accuracy is final.
                            - Wyatt Earp

                            8^)

                            GB.




                            ----------------------------------------------------------------
                            This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
                          • Kevin Callahan
                            I guess it depends what you re hoping to gain by spending time sizing epics? I ll also say that release planning has been one of the most difficult
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 6, 2013
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                              I guess it depends what you're hoping to gain by spending time sizing epics? I'll also say that release planning has been one of the most difficult organizational problems to solve. One option, and this is at risk of hijacking the thread, is to ask a different question: what is the minimum we can do right now to push value out the door?

                              The teams I work with have seen a lot of value in just-in-time estimation; as long as the next sprint's work is prioritized, groomed, and estimated, there's not a tremendous amount of effort put into additional stories. Lean has deeply influenced my thinking on this, particularly the emphasis on eliminating time delays between story state changes; I realize this is not universal, and varies greatly depending where an app is in its lifecycle, among a whole slew of other important variables.

                              In short, from your message it *seems* like maybe there's a bit too much planning, and perhaps not enough stakeholder involvement, to be able to clearly prioritize exactly what is next, and then break only that part down. Stakeholders *should* be excited and eager that their needs are being met, though if there's not alignment at the stakeholder level, well, that's another issue ;)

                              Hope that helps…

                              -k


                              On Mar 6, 2013, at 2:26 PM, Richard Griffiths wrote:

                               

                              All

                               

                              Interesting epic sizing meeting with the team today. We did relative sizing and then assigned them t-shirt values. Then we assigned them points based on planning poker multiplied by 10. Now I know there’s a chance of gaming the values, but some of the epics point sizes matched quite well with previous equivalent epics. The problem arose with larger epic sizes, which was unsurprising due to complexity and some of them being mixed buckets of work. A good first pass, giving us plenty of time to review the epics, split and start grooming the stories. The fact that stakeholders will probably have a heart attack is another matter.

                               

                              I’d be interested to see if people think it is worth sizing epics at the t-shirt level and then trying to map story points to them? I’ll be doing the same tomorrow with a more established team so will be interested to see the difference.

                               

                              --

                              Richard

                               

                              Speed is n0 subsitute fnor accurancy



                              Kevin Callahan
                              Scrum Master & Agile Coach
                              LiveWorld Inc.

                              Mobile+1 (207) 691-2997
                              Emailkcallahan@...
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                              Webwww.liveworld.com

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