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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Nirmala, ... I don t understand. The ScrumMaster is not supposed to do any controlling as far as I know. And I m not aware of the role Retrospective
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 26, 2013
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      Nirmala,

      On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:

      Either a project or a product the team would require a SCRUM master who actually does the "Project Controlling " part. Hence based on the project style the PMO members can get distributed among the SCRUM teams and take up roles like SCRUM MASter, Product owner or Retrospective Handler. But in all the cases, the involvment given by the PMO team in SCRUM methods would be more deeper and clearer than when you have performed in tradional methods. Can explain in detail if you have more questions.

      I don't understand. The ScrumMaster is not supposed to do any "controlling" as far as I know. And I'm not aware of the role "Retrospective Handler" at all.

      Ron Jeffries
      I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way.  -- Jessica Rabbit

    • Jean Richardson
      +1 to Ron s comments, and I d be a bit concerned about mixing Scrum, XP and Kanban Practices as you need. It s remarkably easy to frost traditional
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 27, 2013
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        +1 to Ron’s comments, and I’d be a bit concerned about mixing “Scrum, XP and Kanban Practices as you need.”  It’s remarkably easy to frost traditional processes with agilesque terms and spend a fair amount of time in the slough of despond thinking that Scrum, XP, or Kanban doesn’t work.  Though, the advice about paying attention to the Agile Manifesto is very important.

        “Use your power tools properly” puts me in mind of chainsaws and Shop Smiths.  Could you enlighten me about these “power tools,” Mahmood?

        --- Jean

         

        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:22 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM

         

         

        Nirmala,

         

        On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:



        Either a project or a product the team would require a SCRUM master who actually does the "Project Controlling " part. Hence based on the project style the PMO members can get distributed among the SCRUM teams and take up roles like SCRUM MASter, Product owner or Retrospective Handler. But in all the cases, the involvment given by the PMO team in SCRUM methods would be more deeper and clearer than when you have performed in tradional methods. Can explain in detail if you have more questions.

         

        I don't understand. The ScrumMaster is not supposed to do any "controlling" as far as I know. And I'm not aware of the role "Retrospective Handler" at all.


        Ron Jeffries

        I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way.  -- Jessica Rabbit

         

      • Kevin Callahan
        Jean, +1 for chainsaws; love my Husqvarna :) Seriously though, I take power tools to equate to tools and processes . Power tools are great, when they re
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 27, 2013
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          Jean,

          +1 for chainsaws; love my Husqvarna :)

          Seriously though, I take "power tools" to equate to "tools and processes". Power tools are great, when they're appropriate and in the hands of competent operators. They quickly become incredibly dangerous and a threat to work well-done lacking this expertise.

          If agile and its methodologies are tools, the world of software development is littered with projects and organizations in the latter camp…

          -k

          On Feb 27, 2013, at 12:05 PM, Jean Richardson wrote:

          “Use your power tools properly” puts me in mind of chainsaws and Shop Smiths.  Could you enlighten me about these “power tools,” Mahmood?

          Kevin Callahan
          Scrum Master & Agile Coach
          LiveWorld Inc.

          Mobile+1 (207) 691-2997
          Emailkcallahan@...
          Skypekevmocal
          Webwww.liveworld.com

          Follow UsFacebook Twitter LinkedIn



        • Nirmala Jegadheesan
          Ron,   In practical situations, the Scrum Master cannot stop from just advising the team. When the team is new and immature regarding the agile processes the
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 27, 2013
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            Ron,
              In practical situations, the Scrum Master cannot stop from just advising the team. When the team is new and immature regarding the agile processes the Scrm master should do some hand holding until the team sets itself on the roll. Usually the Scrum Master organizes the retrospective meetings and track the decsions if implemented properly within the team. When there is a new process coming up, the PMO team should take up these roles inorder to mingle with the team and the process.
            Regards,
            Nirmala

            From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 1:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM
             
            Nirmala,
            On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:
            Either a project or a product the team would require a SCRUM master who actually does the "Project Controlling " part. Hence based on the project style the PMO members can get distributed among the SCRUM teams and take up roles like SCRUM MASter, Product owner or Retrospective Handler. But in all the cases, the involvment given by the PMO team in SCRUM methods would be more deeper and clearer than when you have performed in tradional methods. Can explain in detail if you have more questions.

            I don't understand. The ScrumMaster is not supposed to do any "controlling" as far as I know. And I'm not aware of the role "Retrospective Handler" at all.

            Ron Jeffries
            I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way.  -- Jessica Rabbit
          • Jean Richardson
            We wade here into the challenge of people in PMO’s being enculturated to work one way and agile struggling to enculturate people to work another. Training
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 28, 2013
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              We wade here into the challenge of people in PMO’s being enculturated to work one way and agile struggling to enculturate people to work another.  Training can help, but rarely does it actually change culture, especially overnight.  The project controlling piece that Ron was concerned about below is an example of this culture shift.  The Scrum Master is a process facilitator, not a team or project controller.  Mahmood pointed to some good references to help with cultural change.  Sahota’s book points specifically to the challenges of introducing agile from a cultural perspective.

               

              It’s important to be aware of it when we are simply frosting old behaviors and attitudes with new terms and role names.  It’s also very difficult. 

               

              There is such a thing as an agile PMO.  I finally went and dug up one of Cohn’s very good articles on this topic as this thread has continued:  http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/articles/the-roles-of-the-project-management-office-in-scrum

               

              ---- Jean

               

              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nirmala Jegadheesan
              Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:57 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM

               

               

              Ron,

                In practical situations, the Scrum Master cannot stop from just advising the team. When the team is new and immature regarding the agile processes the Scrm master should do some hand holding until the team sets itself on the roll. Usually the Scrum Master organizes the retrospective meetings and track the decsions if implemented properly within the team. When there is a new process coming up, the PMO team should take up these roles inorder to mingle with the team and the process.

              Regards,

              Nirmala

               

              From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 1:52 AM
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM

               

              Nirmala,

              On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:

              Either a project or a product the team would require a SCRUM master who actually does the "Project Controlling " part. Hence based on the project style the PMO members can get distributed among the SCRUM teams and take up roles like SCRUM MASter, Product owner or Retrospective Handler. But in all the cases, the involvment given by the PMO team in SCRUM methods would be more deeper and clearer than when you have performed in tradional methods. Can explain in detail if you have more questions.

               

              I don't understand. The ScrumMaster is not supposed to do any "controlling" as far as I know. And I'm not aware of the role "Retrospective Handler" at all.


              Ron Jeffries

              I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way.  -- Jessica Rabbit

            • Ali H. Moghadam
              Nirmala, I think the old style PMOs are not good candidates for ScramMaster role, as the SM should have a good understanding of servant leadership and scrum
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 1 12:47 AM
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                Nirmala,

                I think the old style PMOs are not good candidates for ScramMaster role, as the SM should have a good understanding of servant leadership and scrum rules. The nearest role to a Project Manager in scrum is Product Owner, who is responsible for the product, the priorities, and the plan. The only difference is he has not any authority over the team, but the product backlog.

                If the team is not mature, maybe they should not start doing any project at all! In this situation, I recommend to hire a Scrum Coach, instead of forcing the scram master to do Command-and-control and take the responsibility of the team.

                -Ali


                On Feb 28, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:

                 

                Ron,
                  In practical situations, the Scrum Master cannot stop from just advising the team. When the team is new and immature regarding the agile processes the Scrm master should do some hand holding until the team sets itself on the roll. Usually the Scrum Master organizes the retrospective meetings and track the decsions if implemented properly within the team. When there is a new process coming up, the PMO team should take up these roles inorder to mingle with the team and the process.
                Regards,
                Nirmala

                From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 1:52 AM
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM
                 
                Nirmala,
                On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:
                Either a project or a product the team would require a SCRUM master who actually does the "Project Controlling " part. Hence based on the project style the PMO members can get distributed among the SCRUM teams and take up roles like SCRUM MASter, Product owner or Retrospective Handler. But in all the cases, the involvment given by the PMO team in SCRUM methods would be more deeper and clearer than when you have performed in tradional methods. Can explain in detail if you have more questions.

                I don't understand. The ScrumMaster is not supposed to do any "controlling" as far as I know. And I'm not aware of the role "Retrospective Handler" at all.

                Ron Jeffries
                I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way.  -- Jessica Rabbit

              • Nirmala Jegadheesan
                Ali,    Coaching the team for Acrum practices is essential and inevitable for anybody before jumping into it. If my answer sounded for skipping it I am
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 2 2:51 AM
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                  Ali,
                     Coaching the team for Acrum practices is essential and inevitable for anybody before jumping into it. If my answer sounded for skipping it I am sorry. Any level or size of company do the scrum coaching before they take it up. But handling immature teams is almost happens everywhere. With some good handholding, training and expert process tailoring within 5-6 sprints the team can come to a speed. I have worked with teams where a properly trained scrum master himself training the teams and do the handholding. Hope this helps.
                  Regards,
                  Nirmala

                  From: Ali H. Moghadam <ali.moghadam@...>
                  To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                  Cc: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 2:17 PM
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM
                   

                  Nirmala,

                  I think the old style PMOs are not good candidates for ScramMaster role, as the SM should have a good understanding of servant leadership and scrum rules. The nearest role to a Project Manager in scrum is Product Owner, who is responsible for the product, the priorities, and the plan. The only difference is he has not any authority over the team, but the product backlog.

                  If the team is not mature, maybe they should not start doing any project at all! In this situation, I recommend to hire a Scrum Coach, instead of forcing the scram master to do Command-and-control and take the responsibility of the team.

                  -Ali
                  On Feb 28, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:
                   
                  Ron,
                    In practical situations, the Scrum Master cannot stop from just advising the team. When the team is new and immature regarding the agile processes the Scrm master should do some hand holding until the team sets itself on the roll. Usually the Scrum Master organizes the retrospective meetings and track the decsions if implemented properly within the team. When there is a new process coming up, the PMO team should take up these roles inorder to mingle with the team and the process.
                  Regards,
                  Nirmala

                  From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 1:52 AM
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questions about shifting from traditional project management to SCRUM
                   
                  Nirmala,
                  On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Nirmala Jegadheesan <jnirmala@...> wrote:
                  Either a project or a product the team would require a SCRUM master who actually does the "Project Controlling " part. Hence based on the project style the PMO members can get distributed among the SCRUM teams and take up roles like SCRUM MASter, Product owner or Retrospective Handler. But in all the cases, the involvment given by the PMO team in SCRUM methods would be more deeper and clearer than when you have performed in tradional methods. Can explain in detail if you have more questions.

                  I don't understand. The ScrumMaster is not supposed to do any "controlling" as far as I know. And I'm not aware of the role "Retrospective Handler" at all.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way.  -- Jessica Rabbit
                • M.Jalilnejad
                  ​Sorry for late response Jean, ... As I said before I see each process just a tool in our toolbox, they are powerful tools to speed up our work, but we must
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 4 1:53 AM
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                    ​Sorry for late response Jean,​
                    On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
                    “Use your power tools properly” puts me in mind of
                    ​​
                    chainsaws and
                    ​​
                    Shop Smiths.  Could you enlighten me about these “power tools,” Mahmood?

                    As I said before I see each process just a tool in our toolbox, they are powerful tools to speed up our work, but we must know when and how to use them. if they used in an appropriate way they will do a magic, if not they will be a threat as Kevin Callahan said:​
                    ​Seriously though, I take "power tools" to equate to "tools and processes". Power tools are great, when they're appropriate and in the hands of competent operators​. They quickly become incredibly dangerous and a threat to work well-done lacking this expertise

                    ​Regards
                    Mahmood Jalilnejad,
                    An Agile friend
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