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Industry standard Story Complexity Points

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  • Butch
    I have a potential client that is saying they have created a backlog and that each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story Complexity Points. I ve never
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 11, 2013
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      I have a potential client that is saying they have created a backlog and that each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story Complexity Points.

      I've never heard of industry standard Story Complexity Points before? I'm also not accepting of someone else telling me and my team how many story points are assigned to each user story and how many of these we need to complete per sprint. Especially since we haven't even see the stories yet.

      Has anyone ever heard of "industry standard Story Complexity Points"?

      Thanks,

      Steve
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hi Butch, ... No. And it would be extremely imprudent to commit to work you don t understand -- as you already know. Even if there were such a thing, you still
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 11, 2013
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        Hi Butch,

        On Feb 11, 2013, at 6:54 AM, "Butch" <cragos@...> wrote:

        Has anyone ever heard of "industry standard Story Complexity Points"?

        No. And it would be extremely imprudent to commit to work you don't understand -- as you already know.

        Even if there were such a thing, you still don't know your team's velocity in "industry standard Story Complexity Points per unit time", so , in essence, you know nothing useful. Except perhaps about the client ... :)
        If not now, when? -- Rabbi Hillel

      • George Dinwiddie
        Steve, What industry is this? Certainly no Agile Software Development! ;-) ... -- ... * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 11, 2013
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          Steve,

          What industry is this? Certainly no Agile Software Development! ;-)

          On 2/11/13 6:54 AM, Butch wrote:
          > I have a potential client that is saying they have created a backlog
          > and that each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story
          > Complexity Points.
          >
          > I've never heard of industry standard Story Complexity Points before?
          > I'm also not accepting of someone else telling me and my team how
          > many story points are assigned to each user story and how many of
          > these we need to complete per sprint. Especially since we haven't
          > even see the stories yet.
          >
          > Has anyone ever heard of "industry standard Story Complexity
          > Points"?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Steve

          --
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        • Alan Dayley
          each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story Complexity Points Wow! Points cannot be compared between just two teams and someone believes (and
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 11, 2013
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            "each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story Complexity Points"

            Wow! Points cannot be compared between just two teams and someone believes (and presumably teaches) that points can be normalized across an entire industry. Sad to think of the problems and pressure perpetrated by such a thought!

            To answer your question: No, I have never heard of "industry standard Story Complexity Points" before today and will reject such an idea any time someone brings it up.

            Alan



            On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:39 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
             

            Steve,

            What industry is this? Certainly no Agile Software Development! ;-)



            On 2/11/13 6:54 AM, Butch wrote:
            > I have a potential client that is saying they have created a backlog
            > and that each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story
            > Complexity Points.
            >
            > I've never heard of industry standard Story Complexity Points before?
            > I'm also not accepting of someone else telling me and my team how
            > many story points are assigned to each user story and how many of
            > these we need to complete per sprint. Especially since we haven't
            > even see the stories yet.
            >
            > Has anyone ever heard of "industry standard Story Complexity
            > Points"?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Steve

            --
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
            ----------------------------------------------------------


          • Jesse Houwing
            Never heard of this specific thing, but I think the complexity is a hint towards Function
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 12, 2013
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              Never heard of this specific thing, but I think the complexity is a hint towards Function Points or another variation where the number of screens, validations, inputs, algorithms, external connectors is added up, each with a standard number or factor.

              This methodology was practiced at a previous employer of mine. The velocity in Function Points would be measured by technology group and this is how they figured out it was quicker and thus cheaper to build similar applications in Function Points by a .NET team than by a Java team. These numbers were also used to calculate the magic number for teams at customers and teams of competitors by comparing actual hours to a function point assessment after the fact. That way they could sell that they'd have built said application x% cheaper.

              We did a team estimation for all of these functions and features as well and generally just ignored the number, they were kept for statistical purposes and were constantly adjusted by people who care deeply about these statistics and lies. A few friends of mine still believe in these magic numbers explicitly :).

              Fair to say I no longer work for them :D.

              Jesse



              On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Butch <cragos@...> wrote:
              I have a potential client that is saying they have created a backlog and that each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story Complexity Points.

              I've never heard of industry standard Story Complexity Points before?  I'm also not accepting of someone else telling me and my team how many story points are assigned to each user story and how many of these we need to complete per sprint.  Especially since we haven't even see the stories yet.

              Has anyone ever heard of "industry standard Story Complexity Points"?

              Thanks,

              Steve



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            • Bret Wortman
              This is kind of like saying industry standard measures of sugar when making a recipe. Are you talking about teaspoons, tablespoons, cups, ounces by volume,
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 12, 2013
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                This is kind of like saying "industry standard measures of sugar" when making a recipe. Are you talking about teaspoons, tablespoons, cups, ounces by volume, ounces by weight, pounds, or...?

                Sure we all put two of them in our chocolate chip cookie recipe, so they're "industry standard". Of course, my recipe feeds my family and yours feeds a batallion of hungry marines. But they're both "two industry standard measures of sugar" by that logic, right?


                On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...> wrote:
                 

                Never heard of this specific thing, but I think the complexity is a hint towards Function Points or another variation where the number of screens, validations, inputs, algorithms, external connectors is added up, each with a standard number or factor.

                This methodology was practiced at a previous employer of mine. The velocity in Function Points would be measured by technology group and this is how they figured out it was quicker and thus cheaper to build similar applications in Function Points by a .NET team than by a Java team. These numbers were also used to calculate the magic number for teams at customers and teams of competitors by comparing actual hours to a function point assessment after the fact. That way they could sell that they'd have built said application x% cheaper.

                We did a team estimation for all of these functions and features as well and generally just ignored the number, they were kept for statistical purposes and were constantly adjusted by people who care deeply about these statistics and lies. A few friends of mine still believe in these magic numbers explicitly :).

                Fair to say I no longer work for them :D.

                Jesse



                On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Butch <cragos@...> wrote:
                I have a potential client that is saying they have created a backlog and that each Sprint is generally 40 industry standard Story Complexity Points.

                I've never heard of industry standard Story Complexity Points before?  I'm also not accepting of someone else telling me and my team how many story points are assigned to each user story and how many of these we need to complete per sprint.  Especially since we haven't even see the stories yet.

                Has anyone ever heard of "industry standard Story Complexity Points"?

                Thanks,

                Steve



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              • Kevin Callahan
                probably the most valuable part of the response as far as the actual result of such metrics :) -k ... Kevin Callahan Scrum Master & Agile Coach LiveWorld Inc.
                Message 7 of 7 , Feb 12, 2013
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                  probably the most valuable part of the response as far as the actual result of such metrics  :)

                  -k
                   
                  On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Jesse Houwing wrote:

                  Fair to say I no longer work for them :D.

                  Kevin Callahan
                  Scrum Master & Agile Coach
                  LiveWorld Inc.

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