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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Well done waterfall+agile

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  • RonJeffries
    Hi ... ... The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You never
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 16, 2012
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      Hi ...

      On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

      I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
      not know what he/she wanted,

      I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
      sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
      DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
      learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

      The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
      You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake

    • jerzyklek
      Hi, I think you mean that even when they know what they want, this is not what they need :-) Very true! We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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        Hi,

        I think you mean that even when they know what they want,
        this is not what they need :-)
        Very true!
        We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by law
        can take many sprints, so it's more difficult to be in this situation...

        thanks for the insight!

        /Jerzy

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi ...
        >
        > On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
        >
        > >> I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
        > >> not know what he/she wanted,
        > >
        > > I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps
        > > sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer
        > > DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things
        > > learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.
        >
        >
        > The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
        >
        > Ron Jeffries
        > www.XProgramming.com
        > You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake
        >
      • changjiang1124@gmail.com
        Hi guys: I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys. I see here we always talk about customer , does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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          Hi guys:

          I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

          I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


          Best regards
          Chang, Jiang



          On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

           

          Hi ...


          On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

          I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
          not know what he/she wanted,

          I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
          sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
          DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
          learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

          The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
          You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



        • Cass Dalton
          This feels like its own question. You should repost as a new question to the group On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, changjiang1124@gmail.com
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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            This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

            On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
             

            Hi guys:


            I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

            I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


            Best regards
            Chang, Jiang



            On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

             

            Hi ...


            On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

            I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
            not know what he/she wanted,

            I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
            sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
            DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
            learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

            The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
            You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



          • George Dinwiddie
            Chang, ... There is always a customer (or several) even when they re within your own organization. - George -- ... * George Dinwiddie *
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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              Chang,

              On 11/19/12 3:35 AM, changjiang1124@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi guys:
              >
              > I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.
              >
              > I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda
              > outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means,
              > you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted
              > features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you
              > still need to keep pace on your own milestones.

              There is always a customer (or several) even when they're within your
              own organization.

              - George

              --
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            • changjiang1124@gmail.com
              Sorry, guys, I will repost this. Best regards Chang, Jiang
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                Sorry, guys, I will repost this.


                Best regards
                Chang, Jiang



                On Nov 19, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Cass Dalton <cassdalton73@...> wrote:

                 

                This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

                On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
                 

                Hi guys:


                I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                Best regards
                Chang, Jiang



                On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                 

                Hi ...


                On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                not know what he/she wanted,

                I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake






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