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Re: Well done waterfall+agile

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  • jerzyklek
    Hi, I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time. I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar situation: we have a huge
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 16, 2012
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      Hi,

      I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time.
      I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar
      situation: we have a huge backlog of things which all
      are wanted by some customers, prioritized by the customer importance,
      and usually we can go through quite a few sprint before something new gets into the backlog on top of it, having a higher priority.

      I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did not know what he/she wanted, and main impact of "learn and adapt" principle on project success was by enabling the result of one iteration/sprint to influence the remaining product backlog.

      We don't have much of that, but sprint reviews allow us adapt our ways of working on a team level: how we plan, estimate, test... what we document and so on... I think it's another aspect of "agility":
      we do not adapt the backlog, but adapt our ways of working.
      Not "fully agile" then, but still a bit.

      I am pretty sure that out POs could use the reviews more to our benefit, but anyway...

      //Jerzy

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
      >
      > Marco,
      >
      > On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
      > > Hi all,
      > >
      > > I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
      > > how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
      > > façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
      > > development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
      > > application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
      > > sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
      > > deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
      > > a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
      > > of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
      > > for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
      > > the contract.
      > >
      > > I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
      > > that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
      > > believe it.
      > >
      > > Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?
      >
      > I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
      > but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
      > iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
      > you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
      > go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
      > frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.
      >
      > If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
      > covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
      > commonly associated with Agile.
      >
      > - George
      >
      > --
      > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
    • George Dinwiddie
      Jerzy, ... I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps sometimes, but that s not the general case. More commonly, the customer DID know
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 16, 2012
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        Jerzy,

        On 11/16/12 10:51 AM, jerzyklek wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time.
        > I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar
        > situation: we have a huge backlog of things which all
        > are wanted by some customers, prioritized by the customer importance,
        > and usually we can go through quite a few sprint before something new
        > gets into the backlog on top of it, having a higher priority.
        >
        > I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
        > not know what he/she wanted,

        I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps
        sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer
        DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things
        learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

        > and main impact of "learn and adapt"
        > principle on project success was by enabling the result of one
        > iteration/sprint to influence the remaining product backlog.
        >
        > We don't have much of that, but sprint reviews allow us adapt our
        > ways of working on a team level: how we plan, estimate, test... what
        > we document and so on... I think it's another aspect of "agility": we
        > do not adapt the backlog, but adapt our ways of working. Not "fully
        > agile" then, but still a bit.
        >
        > I am pretty sure that out POs could use the reviews more to our
        > benefit, but anyway...
        >
        > //Jerzy
        >
        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Marco,
        >>
        >> On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
        >>> Hi all,
        >>>
        >>> I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
        >>> how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
        >>> façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
        >>> development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
        >>> application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
        >>> sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
        >>> deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
        >>> a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
        >>> of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
        >>> for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
        >>> the contract.
        >>>
        >>> I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
        >>> that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
        >>> believe it.
        >>>
        >>> Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?
        >>
        >> I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
        >> but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
        >> iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
        >> you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
        >> go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
        >> frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.
        >>
        >> If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
        >> covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
        >> commonly associated with Agile.
        >>
        >> - George

        --
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      • RonJeffries
        Hi ... ... The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You never
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 16, 2012
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          Hi ...

          On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

          I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
          not know what he/she wanted,

          I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
          sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
          DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
          learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

          The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
          You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake

        • jerzyklek
          Hi, I think you mean that even when they know what they want, this is not what they need :-) Very true! We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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            Hi,

            I think you mean that even when they know what they want,
            this is not what they need :-)
            Very true!
            We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by law
            can take many sprints, so it's more difficult to be in this situation...

            thanks for the insight!

            /Jerzy

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi ...
            >
            > On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
            >
            > >> I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
            > >> not know what he/she wanted,
            > >
            > > I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps
            > > sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer
            > > DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things
            > > learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.
            >
            >
            > The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake
            >
          • changjiang1124@gmail.com
            Hi guys: I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys. I see here we always talk about customer , does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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              Hi guys:

              I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

              I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


              Best regards
              Chang, Jiang



              On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

               

              Hi ...


              On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

              I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
              not know what he/she wanted,

              I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
              sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
              DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
              learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

              The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
              You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



            • Cass Dalton
              This feels like its own question. You should repost as a new question to the group On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, changjiang1124@gmail.com
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

                On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
                 

                Hi guys:


                I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                Best regards
                Chang, Jiang



                On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                 

                Hi ...


                On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                not know what he/she wanted,

                I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



              • George Dinwiddie
                Chang, ... There is always a customer (or several) even when they re within your own organization. - George -- ... * George Dinwiddie *
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                  Chang,

                  On 11/19/12 3:35 AM, changjiang1124@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi guys:
                  >
                  > I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.
                  >
                  > I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda
                  > outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means,
                  > you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted
                  > features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you
                  > still need to keep pace on your own milestones.

                  There is always a customer (or several) even when they're within your
                  own organization.

                  - George

                  --
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                  Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                  Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                • changjiang1124@gmail.com
                  Sorry, guys, I will repost this. Best regards Chang, Jiang
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                    Sorry, guys, I will repost this.


                    Best regards
                    Chang, Jiang



                    On Nov 19, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Cass Dalton <cassdalton73@...> wrote:

                     

                    This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

                    On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi guys:


                    I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                    I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                    Best regards
                    Chang, Jiang



                    On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                     

                    Hi ...


                    On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                    I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                    not know what he/she wanted,

                    I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                    sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                    DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                    learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                    The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                    You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake






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