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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Well done waterfall+agile

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  • Aaron Seipel
    What you re describing really seems like the normal way most old-school waterfall teams adapt to Agile.  You start small and prove the benefits to management,
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 11, 2012
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      What you're describing really seems like the normal way most old-school waterfall teams adapt to Agile.  You start small and prove the benefits to management, so you can adopt more Agile practices.  I've gone through this process myself.  It takes time to convert the masses, but it isn't impossible.  The only advise I have is adding a single product owner to your team early will make your Agile adoption will be much smoother.  Depending on the environment, this can be very difficult...
       
      Good luck,
       
      Aaron Seipel

      From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 8:54 PM
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Well done waterfall+agile
       
      Marco,

      On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
      > Hi all,
      >
      > I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
      > how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
      > façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
      > development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
      > application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
      > sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
      > deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
      > a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
      > of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
      > for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
      > the contract.
      >
      > I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
      > that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
      > believe it.
      >
      > Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?

      I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
      but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
      iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
      you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
      go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
      frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.

      If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
      covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
      commonly associated with Agile.

      - George

      --
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      ----------------------------------------------------------

    • jerzyklek
      Hi, I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time. I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar situation: we have a huge
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 16, 2012
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        Hi,

        I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time.
        I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar
        situation: we have a huge backlog of things which all
        are wanted by some customers, prioritized by the customer importance,
        and usually we can go through quite a few sprint before something new gets into the backlog on top of it, having a higher priority.

        I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did not know what he/she wanted, and main impact of "learn and adapt" principle on project success was by enabling the result of one iteration/sprint to influence the remaining product backlog.

        We don't have much of that, but sprint reviews allow us adapt our ways of working on a team level: how we plan, estimate, test... what we document and so on... I think it's another aspect of "agility":
        we do not adapt the backlog, but adapt our ways of working.
        Not "fully agile" then, but still a bit.

        I am pretty sure that out POs could use the reviews more to our benefit, but anyway...

        //Jerzy

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
        >
        > Marco,
        >
        > On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
        > > Hi all,
        > >
        > > I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
        > > how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
        > > façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
        > > development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
        > > application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
        > > sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
        > > deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
        > > a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
        > > of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
        > > for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
        > > the contract.
        > >
        > > I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
        > > that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
        > > believe it.
        > >
        > > Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?
        >
        > I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
        > but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
        > iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
        > you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
        > go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
        > frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.
        >
        > If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
        > covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
        > commonly associated with Agile.
        >
        > - George
        >
        > --
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
      • George Dinwiddie
        Jerzy, ... I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps sometimes, but that s not the general case. More commonly, the customer DID know
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 16, 2012
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          Jerzy,

          On 11/16/12 10:51 AM, jerzyklek wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time.
          > I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar
          > situation: we have a huge backlog of things which all
          > are wanted by some customers, prioritized by the customer importance,
          > and usually we can go through quite a few sprint before something new
          > gets into the backlog on top of it, having a higher priority.
          >
          > I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
          > not know what he/she wanted,

          I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps
          sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer
          DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things
          learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

          > and main impact of "learn and adapt"
          > principle on project success was by enabling the result of one
          > iteration/sprint to influence the remaining product backlog.
          >
          > We don't have much of that, but sprint reviews allow us adapt our
          > ways of working on a team level: how we plan, estimate, test... what
          > we document and so on... I think it's another aspect of "agility": we
          > do not adapt the backlog, but adapt our ways of working. Not "fully
          > agile" then, but still a bit.
          >
          > I am pretty sure that out POs could use the reviews more to our
          > benefit, but anyway...
          >
          > //Jerzy
          >
          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Marco,
          >>
          >> On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
          >>> Hi all,
          >>>
          >>> I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
          >>> how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
          >>> façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
          >>> development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
          >>> application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
          >>> sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
          >>> deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
          >>> a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
          >>> of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
          >>> for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
          >>> the contract.
          >>>
          >>> I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
          >>> that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
          >>> believe it.
          >>>
          >>> Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?
          >>
          >> I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
          >> but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
          >> iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
          >> you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
          >> go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
          >> frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.
          >>
          >> If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
          >> covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
          >> commonly associated with Agile.
          >>
          >> - George

          --
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        • RonJeffries
          Hi ... ... The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You never
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 16, 2012
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            Hi ...

            On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

            I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
            not know what he/she wanted,

            I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
            sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
            DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
            learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

            The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
            You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake

          • jerzyklek
            Hi, I think you mean that even when they know what they want, this is not what they need :-) Very true! We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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              Hi,

              I think you mean that even when they know what they want,
              this is not what they need :-)
              Very true!
              We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by law
              can take many sprints, so it's more difficult to be in this situation...

              thanks for the insight!

              /Jerzy

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi ...
              >
              > On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
              >
              > >> I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
              > >> not know what he/she wanted,
              > >
              > > I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps
              > > sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer
              > > DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things
              > > learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.
              >
              >
              > The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake
              >
            • changjiang1124@gmail.com
              Hi guys: I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys. I see here we always talk about customer , does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                Hi guys:

                I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                Best regards
                Chang, Jiang



                On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                 

                Hi ...


                On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                not know what he/she wanted,

                I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



              • Cass Dalton
                This feels like its own question. You should repost as a new question to the group On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, changjiang1124@gmail.com
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                  This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

                  On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
                   

                  Hi guys:


                  I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                  I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                  Best regards
                  Chang, Jiang



                  On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                   

                  Hi ...


                  On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                  I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                  not know what he/she wanted,

                  I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                  sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                  DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                  learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                  The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                  You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



                • George Dinwiddie
                  Chang, ... There is always a customer (or several) even when they re within your own organization. - George -- ... * George Dinwiddie *
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                    Chang,

                    On 11/19/12 3:35 AM, changjiang1124@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi guys:
                    >
                    > I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.
                    >
                    > I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda
                    > outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means,
                    > you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted
                    > features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you
                    > still need to keep pace on your own milestones.

                    There is always a customer (or several) even when they're within your
                    own organization.

                    - George

                    --
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                    Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  • changjiang1124@gmail.com
                    Sorry, guys, I will repost this. Best regards Chang, Jiang
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
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                      Sorry, guys, I will repost this.


                      Best regards
                      Chang, Jiang



                      On Nov 19, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Cass Dalton <cassdalton73@...> wrote:

                       

                      This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

                      On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hi guys:


                      I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                      I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                      Best regards
                      Chang, Jiang



                      On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                       

                      Hi ...


                      On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                      I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                      not know what he/she wanted,

                      I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                      sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                      DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                      learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                      The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                      You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake






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