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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Well done waterfall+agile

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  • Aaron Seipel
    What you re describing really seems like the normal way most old-school waterfall teams adapt to Agile.  You start small and prove the benefits to management,
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 11 8:33 AM
      What you're describing really seems like the normal way most old-school waterfall teams adapt to Agile.  You start small and prove the benefits to management, so you can adopt more Agile practices.  I've gone through this process myself.  It takes time to convert the masses, but it isn't impossible.  The only advise I have is adding a single product owner to your team early will make your Agile adoption will be much smoother.  Depending on the environment, this can be very difficult...
       
      Good luck,
       
      Aaron Seipel

      From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 8:54 PM
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Well done waterfall+agile
       
      Marco,

      On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
      > Hi all,
      >
      > I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
      > how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
      > façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
      > development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
      > application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
      > sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
      > deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
      > a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
      > of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
      > for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
      > the contract.
      >
      > I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
      > that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
      > believe it.
      >
      > Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?

      I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
      but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
      iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
      you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
      go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
      frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.

      If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
      covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
      commonly associated with Agile.

      - George

      --
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      ----------------------------------------------------------

    • Michael James
      As I meant to write earlier, I always appreciate hearing experience reports, such as the one you wrote Jose. I wouldn t choose to do waterfall for software
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 11 1:48 PM
        As I meant to write earlier, I always appreciate hearing experience reports, such as the one you wrote Jose.

        I wouldn't choose to do waterfall for software development, but if that were beyond my control I'd at least introduce some feedback loops (as you did) to reduce the risks.

        --mj
        (Michael)

        On Nov 11, 2012, at 12:37 PM, "JoseS" <JOSE.SOLERA@...> wrote:

         

        Thanks, Mark. In my experience, though, there's room to be flexible even when told you have to do it a certain way. Senior managers don't have time to micromanage what is going on. The role of the PM is to figure out how to make the space so that the team can be successful. Don't call it a Map Day, but a Planning Day. You'll come out with a very good plan out of the first day. Subsequent meetings will be to assess where we are and "refine the plan." Senior managers will be OK with that.

        It may be still, as you say, a train wreck. But that's no reason to run away. Still, we may agree to disagree.

        All the best,

        Jose

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > That's a nice write-up, Jose, but I don't see how it's going to help the original poster. The OP describes a by-the-book (serial) waterfall approach involving a completely new team in a new domain. This is classical crash and burn territory.
        >
        > It doesn't sound like they have the option to have multiple planning sessions every 6 to 8 weeks (i.e. Map Days). As described, they have to have *one* plan at the beginning, and they'll be held against it.
        >
        > On top of that, they won't deliver *any* working software until the very end of the process, but somehow it will have to work exactly as the customer wants it. Hmmm. Yea, right.
        >
        > This is a train wreck waiting to happen. The only way they're going to make money on the project is if they sell tickets to the crash.
        >
        > Mark
        >
        >
        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Jose Solera <JOSE.SOLERA@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I beg to disagree with those who say not to do it. If you have to, you have
        > > to. I had to do it once (no choice, believe me!)
        > >
        > > What I did: I layered an approach developed at Intel for their
        > > semiconductor design projects and now known as "Commitment Based Project
        > > Management" or CBPM for short. It is a domain-agnostic (it's been used not
        > > only in semiconductor design and software development, but also
        > > construction, defense projects, medical device development, education,
        > > event-planning, and numerous other domains).
        > >
        > > It starts with what we call "map days". These are planning days through
        > > which the entire team develops a rolling plan. Details are planned as far
        > > out as the team is comfortable with, typically 6-8 weeks. Owners make
        > > commitments as to when they'll deliver an item. They work with the
        > > consumers or users of these deliverables to ensure agreement on what is
        > > being delivered. Subsequent map days are scheduled, one at a time, at the
        > > end of the previous map day.
        > >
        > > Regularly (at least three times a week some times daily) progress is
        > > reviewed and adjustments made to the plans. Issues are encouraged to be
        > > brought to light as soon as possible.
        > >
        > > Deliverables and status are tracked through an automated Excel spreadsheet.
        > >
        > > More details are available in Timm Esque's book describing its development:
        > > *No Surprises Project Management*, at the LinkedIn group Project
        > > Acceleration thru Commitment Based Project Management (
        > > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1944064&trk=hb_side_g), in workshops
        > > that Timm and I deliver, in a white paper I published (let me know if you
        > > are interested), in Timm's company website (http://ensemblemc.com/) and in
        > > a white paper he's published (
        > > http://ensemblemc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/2010-Ensemble-paper_Commitment-Based-Project-Management.pdf
        > > ).
        > >
        > > To get back to my story: I had to use a home-grown waterfall methodology.
        > > We planned the effort using CBPM, avoided saying yes to the unrealistic
        > > date requested by the customer by demonstrating its impossibility in the
        > > first map day, made a commitments early on (second map day since we needed
        > > to see if we could deliver portions of the software -- Agile!) and hit each
        > > and everyone of our commitments on the nose. "There were no fires!" was the
        > > best comment I heard.
        > >
        > > Would I use this instead of Scrum or XP? No! Those approaches are designed
        > > for software development. But if I have to use waterfall, yes. Or for some
        > > other less-SW-development time of IT projects such as migrating
        > > applications to a new security system, deploying servers, etc.
        > >
        > > Contact me or Timm (through his website) if you want more details.
        > >
        > > All the best,
        > >
        > > Jose Solera, MBA, PMP®, CSM, CSPO, CSP
        > >
        >


      • jerzyklek
        Hi, I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time. I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar situation: we have a huge
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 16 7:51 AM
          Hi,

          I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time.
          I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar
          situation: we have a huge backlog of things which all
          are wanted by some customers, prioritized by the customer importance,
          and usually we can go through quite a few sprint before something new gets into the backlog on top of it, having a higher priority.

          I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did not know what he/she wanted, and main impact of "learn and adapt" principle on project success was by enabling the result of one iteration/sprint to influence the remaining product backlog.

          We don't have much of that, but sprint reviews allow us adapt our ways of working on a team level: how we plan, estimate, test... what we document and so on... I think it's another aspect of "agility":
          we do not adapt the backlog, but adapt our ways of working.
          Not "fully agile" then, but still a bit.

          I am pretty sure that out POs could use the reviews more to our benefit, but anyway...

          //Jerzy

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
          >
          > Marco,
          >
          > On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
          > > Hi all,
          > >
          > > I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
          > > how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
          > > façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
          > > development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
          > > application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
          > > sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
          > > deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
          > > a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
          > > of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
          > > for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
          > > the contract.
          > >
          > > I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
          > > that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
          > > believe it.
          > >
          > > Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?
          >
          > I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
          > but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
          > iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
          > you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
          > go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
          > frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.
          >
          > If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
          > covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
          > commonly associated with Agile.
          >
          > - George
          >
          > --
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
        • George Dinwiddie
          Jerzy, ... I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps sometimes, but that s not the general case. More commonly, the customer DID know
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 16 11:06 AM
            Jerzy,

            On 11/16/12 10:51 AM, jerzyklek wrote:
            > Hi,
            >
            > I am quite new to this and and have been lurking for some time.
            > I have one question to this comment since I am in a bit similar
            > situation: we have a huge backlog of things which all
            > are wanted by some customers, prioritized by the customer importance,
            > and usually we can go through quite a few sprint before something new
            > gets into the backlog on top of it, having a higher priority.
            >
            > I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
            > not know what he/she wanted,

            I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps
            sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer
            DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things
            learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

            > and main impact of "learn and adapt"
            > principle on project success was by enabling the result of one
            > iteration/sprint to influence the remaining product backlog.
            >
            > We don't have much of that, but sprint reviews allow us adapt our
            > ways of working on a team level: how we plan, estimate, test... what
            > we document and so on... I think it's another aspect of "agility": we
            > do not adapt the backlog, but adapt our ways of working. Not "fully
            > agile" then, but still a bit.
            >
            > I am pretty sure that out POs could use the reviews more to our
            > benefit, but anyway...
            >
            > //Jerzy
            >
            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Marco,
            >>
            >> On 11/8/12 7:00 PM, marcodorantes wrote:
            >>> Hi all,
            >>>
            >>> I am looking for articles or papers that talk about the details of
            >>> how to successfully execute a development project with a waterfall
            >>> façade to the upper-management layer and an agile approach for the
            >>> development team. All is new in the project: the team, the users, the
            >>> application, the technology. Note that with «waterfall» I mean strict
            >>> sequential stages of requirements, analysis, design, coding, testing,
            >>> deployment to production, and three months of maintenance; along with
            >>> a fixed-price/fixed-scope contract, and a single Gantt chart as part
            >>> of the signed contract. This Gantt chart will work as the criteria
            >>> for payments at the end of each stage against stated deliverables in
            >>> the contract.
            >>>
            >>> I have heard, from time to time, that some teams have done precisely
            >>> that and very well done. Yet, I have not checked the evidence to
            >>> believe it.
            >>>
            >>> Could you point to those articles or papers, or experiences?
            >>
            >> I've seen a number of teams who think they're doing Agile development,
            >> but are, instead, trying to burn through a fixed backlog by using
            >> iterative processes. Theoretically, that could work. It would even give
            >> you a better indicator of progress (or lack of it). I've never seen it
            >> go well, however. It has all the fragility of waterfall plus the
            >> frustration of not being allowed to use what you learn as you go.
            >>
            >> If you can't change the backlog, it's not, by any means, Agile under the
            >> covers. It's still waterfall, even if you use some practices that are
            >> commonly associated with Agile.
            >>
            >> - George

            --
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          • RonJeffries
            Hi ... ... The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You never
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 16 11:41 AM
              Hi ...

              On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

              I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
              not know what he/she wanted,

              I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
              sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
              DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
              learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

              The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
              You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake

            • jerzyklek
              Hi, I think you mean that even when they know what they want, this is not what they need :-) Very true! We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 18 5:17 AM
                Hi,

                I think you mean that even when they know what they want,
                this is not what they need :-)
                Very true!
                We do embedded stuff, where some thick spec mandated by law
                can take many sprints, so it's more difficult to be in this situation...

                thanks for the insight!

                /Jerzy

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi ...
                >
                > On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                >
                > >> I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                > >> not know what he/she wanted,
                > >
                > > I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps
                > > sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer
                > > DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things
                > > learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.
                >
                >
                > The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                >
                > Ron Jeffries
                > www.XProgramming.com
                > You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake
                >
              • changjiang1124@gmail.com
                Hi guys: I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys. I see here we always talk about customer , does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 19 12:35 AM
                  Hi guys:

                  I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                  I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                  Best regards
                  Chang, Jiang



                  On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                   

                  Hi ...


                  On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                  I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                  not know what he/she wanted,

                  I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                  sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                  DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                  learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                  The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                  You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



                • Cass Dalton
                  This feels like its own question. You should repost as a new question to the group On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, changjiang1124@gmail.com
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 19 6:48 AM

                    This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

                    On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi guys:


                    I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                    I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                    Best regards
                    Chang, Jiang



                    On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                     

                    Hi ...


                    On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                    I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                    not know what he/she wanted,

                    I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                    sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                    DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                    learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                    The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                    You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake



                  • George Dinwiddie
                    Chang, ... There is always a customer (or several) even when they re within your own organization. - George -- ... * George Dinwiddie *
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 19 4:29 PM
                      Chang,

                      On 11/19/12 3:35 AM, changjiang1124@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi guys:
                      >
                      > I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.
                      >
                      > I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda
                      > outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means,
                      > you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted
                      > features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you
                      > still need to keep pace on your own milestones.

                      There is always a customer (or several) even when they're within your
                      own organization.

                      - George

                      --
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    • changjiang1124@gmail.com
                      Sorry, guys, I will repost this. Best regards Chang, Jiang
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 19 6:27 PM
                        Sorry, guys, I will repost this.


                        Best regards
                        Chang, Jiang



                        On Nov 19, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Cass Dalton <cassdalton73@...> wrote:

                         

                        This feels like its own question.  You should repost as a new question to the group

                        On Nov 19, 2012 9:01 AM, "changjiang1124@..." <changjiang1124@...> wrote:
                         

                        Hi guys:


                        I am new to this group, should have much to learn from you guys.

                        I see here we always talk about "customer", does Scrum only fit kinda outsourcing development? What about doing your own products? That means, you will always get feedbacks from your customers, like bugs or wanted features, sometimes you need to reply them within several hours. And you still need to keep pace on your own milestones. 


                        Best regards
                        Chang, Jiang



                        On Nov 17, 2012, at 3:41 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                         

                        Hi ...


                        On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:06 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                        I also understand that Agile emerged in places where the customer did
                        not know what he/she wanted,

                        I suggest that your understanding is not quite correct. Perhaps 
                        sometimes, but that's not the general case. More commonly, the customer 
                        DID know what they wanted, but were able to take advantage of things 
                        learned during development to achieve something better or sooner.

                        The first XP project, still one of the best, was payroll. The customer knew EXACTLY what they wanted.
                        You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake






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