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Is Scrum Master a Managerial Role?

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  • Michael Mallete
    a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group: http://tinyurl.com/8jropew which i diverted to it s own thread:
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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      a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:


      which i diverted to it's own thread:


      i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

      what's your take?

      salamat,
      mike mallete
    • Jesse Houwing
      It s even one of the PSM-I certification questions. If I remember correctly, the answer is yes. Since the resolving of impediments requires leverage high
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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        It's even one of the PSM-I certification questions. If I remember correctly, the answer is yes. Since the resolving of impediments requires leverage high enough in the organisation to actually effectuate change. But I guess it all comes down to the definition of manager.

        The scrum master should not need to be a line manager in the organisation or a classic project manager, but he needs to be able to operate on the manager level. It's just a whole lot easier if you're considered one of the club, then when you're an outsider. 

        So to go back to the other threads you started off of this, no need to be a project manager, line manager or other type of existing manager. But the Scrum master must have managerial skills, must be able to operate on that level and must be able to effectuate change.

        A person with that set of skills is often classified as manager in many organisations. Within our organisation anyone who gets a promotion after Senior Consultant gets the title of Manager, regardless of what it is you actually manage. It just says you've proven to be able to operate on that level in a larger organisation.

        Jesse

        On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:


        a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:


        which i diverted to it's own thread:


        i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

        what's your take?

        salamat,
        mike mallete



      • Joshua Partogi
        It s a management role. ... @jpartogi
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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          It's a management role.

          On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
           

          a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



          which i diverted to it's own thread:


          i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

          what's your take?

          salamat,
          mike mallete


          --
          @jpartogi
        • Cass Dalton
          Yes and no. It is a managerial role, but not in the traditional sense of management. When most people hear the word managerial, they think supervisory. In
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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            Yes and no.
            It is a managerial role, but not in the traditional sense of management.  When most people hear the word managerial, they think supervisory.  In other words, saying that the SM is managerial may imply to some people that the SM has authority over the team members in an organizational sense.  The SM is an equal player in scrum.  the SM is a "servant-leader".  That means that when a team member notifies the team of an impediment, it is the SM's job to remove that impediment.  In that way, the SM is almost under the direction of the team.  He/she is at the service of the team.  If the SM sees that a team member is not following the scrum process, he/she can discuss the issue with the team member, but there is no organizational or hierarchical authority invested in the SM to demand that the team member address the issue.  The only real authority the SM has comes from the trust and respect that he/she earns as a fellow scrum team member.

            So if you're asking if the SM has organizational authority over the dev team, then no, the SM is not managerial.

            If you're asking does the SM perform duties that help manage the work that the team does, then you might be able to interpret it that way.  But using that term may imply an authority that the SM doesn't have.

            On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
             

            It's a management role.

            On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
             

            a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



            which i diverted to it's own thread:


            i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

            what's your take?

            salamat,
            mike mallete


            --
            @jpartogi


          • woynam
            Agile is a team sport. The Scrum team delivers or fails to deliver together as a team. The SM is a member of the team. There are no managers on a team.
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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              Agile is a team sport. The Scrum team delivers or fails to deliver together as a team. The SM is a member of the team. There are no managers on a team.

              Therefore, the SM role is not a manager. In a nutshell, an SM does not "manage". They have specific duties as a member of the team, but they certainly don't manage the team.

              Mark

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
              >
              > It's a management role.
              >
              > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...>wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum
              > > practitioners group:
              > >
              > > http://tinyurl.com/8jropew
              > >
              > > which i diverted to it's own thread:
              > >
              > > http://tinyurl.com/9a8w2ow
              > >
              > > i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather,
              > > call it a coaching role.
              > >
              > > what's your take?
              > >
              > > salamat,
              > > mike mallete
              > >
              > >
              > > --
              > @jpartogi
              >
            • Joshua Partogi
              Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role. Even getting teams to self-organize and self-managing need some management skills. Managing the Scrum
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role. Even getting teams to self-organize and self-managing need some management skills. Managing the Scrum ceremonies schedules also need some time management skills. In large organisation, the Scrum Master is a change agent, he brings change so that Scrum may happen. The changes needs to be managed. You are right that the Scrum Master does not manage the team, but the Scrum Master manage the Scrum process, he even manage change in order to make it  happen. 

                On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:43 PM, woynam <woyna@...> wrote:
                 


                Agile is a team sport. The Scrum team delivers or fails to deliver together as a team. The SM is a member of the team. There are no managers on a team.

                Therefore, the SM role is not a manager. In a nutshell, an SM does not "manage". They have specific duties as a member of the team, but they certainly don't manage the team.

                Mark



                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                >
                > It's a management role.
                >
                > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...>wrote:
                >
                > > **

                > >
                > >
                > > a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum
                > > practitioners group:
                > >
                > > http://tinyurl.com/8jropew
                > >
                > > which i diverted to it's own thread:
                > >
                > > http://tinyurl.com/9a8w2ow
                > >
                > > i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather,
                > > call it a coaching role.
                > >
                > > what's your take?
                > >
                > > salamat,
                > > mike mallete
                > >
                > >
                > > --
                > @jpartogi
                >




                --
                @jpartogi
              • Paul Hudson
                This will depend, of course, on what definition of manager you are using Under your definition, I think, pretty much everyone is a manager (everyone manages
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                  This will depend, of course, on what definition of manager you are using

                  Under your definition, I think, pretty much everyone is a manager (everyone manages time, for instance). 

                  For me a manager is allocated some resources (sometimes these are people - yes, I know - but can be other things) and is accountable for getting things done with those resources. Under my definition, the SM is not a manager.

                  On 24 October 2012 15:59, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                   

                  Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role. Even getting teams to self-organize and self-managing need some management skills. Managing the Scrum ceremonies schedules also need some time management skills. In large organisation, the Scrum Master is a change agent, he brings change so that Scrum may happen. The changes needs to be managed. You are right that the Scrum Master does not manage the team, but the Scrum Master manage the Scrum process, he even manage change in order to make it  happen. 


                • Joshua Partogi
                  Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager. ... -- @jpartogi
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                    Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.

                    On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
                     

                    This will depend, of course, on what definition of manager you are using

                    Under your definition, I think, pretty much everyone is a manager (everyone manages time, for instance). 

                    For me a manager is allocated some resources (sometimes these are people - yes, I know - but can be other things) and is accountable for getting things done with those resources. Under my definition, the SM is not a manager.


                    On 24 October 2012 15:59, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                     

                    Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role. Even getting teams to self-organize and self-managing need some management skills. Managing the Scrum ceremonies schedules also need some time management skills. In large organisation, the Scrum Master is a change agent, he brings change so that Scrum may happen. The changes needs to be managed. You are right that the Scrum Master does not manage the team, but the Scrum Master manage the Scrum process, he even manage change in order to make it  happen. 





                    --
                    @jpartogi
                  • woynam
                    Agreed, Paul. Leader and manager are two different things. A team leader is not necessarily a manager. The captain of a football team is a member of the team
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                      Agreed, Paul. Leader and manager are two different things. A team leader is not necessarily a manager. The captain of a football team is a member of the team and a leader, but not a manager.

                      I managed to get out of bed this morning and more or less make it into work. I guess that makes me a manager. :-)

                      Mark

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > This will depend, of course, on what definition of manager you are using
                      >
                      > Under your definition, I think, pretty much everyone is a manager (everyone
                      > manages time, for instance).
                      >
                      > For me a manager is allocated some resources (sometimes these are people -
                      > yes, I know - but can be other things) and is accountable for getting
                      > things done with those resources. Under my definition, the SM is not a
                      > manager.
                      >
                      > On 24 October 2012 15:59, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role. Even getting teams
                      > > to self-organize and self-managing need some management skills. Managing
                      > > the Scrum ceremonies schedules also need some time management skills. In
                      > > large organisation, the Scrum Master is a change agent, he brings change so
                      > > that Scrum may happen. The changes needs to be managed. You are right that
                      > > the Scrum Master does not manage the team, but the Scrum Master manage the
                      > > Scrum process, he even manage change in order to make it happen.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Antony
                      From what I have been told about this, Scrum Master is a managerial role towards the business but not towards the team. The reason for this is so s/he has the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                        From what I have been told about this, Scrum Master is a managerial role towards the business but not towards the team. The reason for this is so s/he has the clout towards the business to overcome impediments.

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role.
                      • RonJeffries
                        Joshua, ... Do you not see that when you go to someone whose job title includes the word manager , they absolutely do not think that everyone is a manager ?
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                          Joshua,

                          On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

                          Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.

                          Do you not see that when you go to someone whose job title includes the word "manager", they absolutely do not think that "everyone is a manager"?

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
                          -- Mary Wortley Montagu



                        • Adam Sroka
                          I think it is a distinction without a purpose in the context of Scrum. The test to me is: what would I do differently if HR thinks they re a manager or not?
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                            I think it is a distinction without a purpose in the context of Scrum. The test to me is: what would I do differently if HR thinks they're a manager or not? The answer is nothing. 

                            On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
                             

                            a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



                            which i diverted to it's own thread:


                            i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

                            what's your take?

                            salamat,
                            mike mallete


                          • Alan Dayley
                            If everyone is a manager there is little need to label anyone a manager. Alan
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                              If everyone is a manager there is little need to label anyone a manager.

                              Alan

                              On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                               

                              Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.



                              On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
                               

                              This will depend, of course, on what definition of manager you are using

                              Under your definition, I think, pretty much everyone is a manager (everyone manages time, for instance). 

                              For me a manager is allocated some resources (sometimes these are people - yes, I know - but can be other things) and is accountable for getting things done with those resources. Under my definition, the SM is not a manager.


                              On 24 October 2012 15:59, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                               

                              Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role. Even getting teams to self-organize and self-managing need some management skills. Managing the Scrum ceremonies schedules also need some time management skills. In large organisation, the Scrum Master is a change agent, he brings change so that Scrum may happen. The changes needs to be managed. You are right that the Scrum Master does not manage the team, but the Scrum Master manage the Scrum process, he even manage change in order to make it  happen. 





                              --
                              @jpartogi


                            • Alan Dayley
                              Manager, management and managerial are words with lots of history, baggage, if you will, of the wrong kind for Agile thinking. If I were to train and coach
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                Manager, management and managerial are words with lots of history, baggage, if you will, of the wrong kind for Agile thinking.  If I were to train and coach people that the ScrumMaster is a manager, I would have to be willing to fight all that baggage. I would expect many new ScrumMasters to start acting like a typical manager and many team members to start acting like the typical managed worker, both not good.

                                For this reason alone it is dangerous to apply the label of manager to the ScrumMaster role.

                                Alan

                                On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
                                 

                                a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



                                which i diverted to it's own thread:


                                i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

                                what's your take?

                                salamat,
                                mike mallete


                              • Kevin Callahan
                                As a scrum master, I have no clout, I have influence. I work to build my credibility through relentless transparency and integrity. When I make a suggestion
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                  As a scrum master, I have no clout, I have influence. I work to build my credibility through relentless transparency and integrity. When I make a suggestion for a direction, people follow it or not because they trust me or not; I strive to always have earned that trust.

                                  My definition of manager is someone who has organizational authority and explicit power. They can make decisions about the employment status of those that report to them: whether those people are hired, fired, and how much they're paid. 

                                  A scrum master is not this kind of manager, and if someone who is this kind of manager is also taking on the title of scrum master, well, that's not scrum, that person is not in fact a scrum master, and there are a lot of extremely good reasons for that.

                                  Feel free to further debate the semantics; I don't think many of the points are inaccurate or incorrect IF the factor of authority differentiated from influence is explicitly stated…

                                  -kevin

                                  On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Antony wrote:

                                   

                                  From what I have been told about this, Scrum Master is a managerial role towards the business but not towards the team. The reason for this is so s/he has the clout towards the business to overcome impediments.

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role.


                                  LiveWorld
                                  Kevin Callahan
                                  Scrum Master & Agile Coach
                                  LiveWorld Inc.
                                  Direct+1 (207) 691-2997
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                                • Bret Wortman
                                  I d be more comfortable calling SM a leadership role. It has nothing to do with rank or role in the company. -- Bret Wortman http://bretwortman.com/
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                    I'd be more comfortable calling SM a leadership role. It has nothing to do with rank or role in the company. 


                                    --
                                    Bret Wortman
                                    http://bretwortman.com/
                                    http://twitter.com/bretwortman

                                    On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Alan Dayley wrote:

                                     

                                    Manager, management and managerial are words with lots of history, baggage, if you will, of the wrong kind for Agile thinking.  If I were to train and coach people that the ScrumMaster is a manager, I would have to be willing to fight all that baggage. I would expect many new ScrumMasters to start acting like a typical manager and many team members to start acting like the typical managed worker, both not good.


                                    For this reason alone it is dangerous to apply the label of manager to the ScrumMaster role.

                                    Alan

                                    On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



                                    which i diverted to it's own thread:


                                    i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

                                    what's your take?

                                    salamat,
                                    mike mallete



                                  • woynam
                                    I think Alan managed to hit the nail on the head. ;-) In our industry, the term manager is loaded with all kinds of nasty baggage, and is best avoided. It is
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                      I think Alan managed to hit the nail on the head. ;-) In our industry, the term "manager" is loaded with all kinds of nasty baggage, and is best avoided. It is similar to the selection of the term "Scrum Master". I believe Ken mentioned that he explicitly wanted to stay away from the term "Project Manager", as it also had negative connotations.

                                      Mark

                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Bret Wortman <bret.wortman@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'd be more comfortable calling SM a leadership role. It has nothing to do with rank or role in the company.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Bret Wortman
                                      > http://bretwortman.com/
                                      > http://twitter.com/bretwortman
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Alan Dayley wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > Manager, management and managerial are words with lots of history, baggage, if you will, of the wrong kind for Agile thinking. If I were to train and coach people that the ScrumMaster is a manager, I would have to be willing to fight all that baggage. I would expect many new ScrumMasters to start acting like a typical manager and many team members to start acting like the typical managed worker, both not good.
                                      > >
                                      > > For this reason alone it is dangerous to apply the label of manager to the ScrumMaster role.
                                      > >
                                      > > Alan
                                      > >
                                      > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@... (mailto:mrmallete@...)> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://tinyurl.com/8jropew
                                      > > >
                                      > > > which i diverted to it's own thread:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://tinyurl.com/9a8w2ow
                                      > > >
                                      > > > i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > what's your take?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > salamat,
                                      > > > mike mallete
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Bachan Anand
                                      If I am manager , HR would expect me to be responsible for behavior and performance of the people I am managing , if I am not HR knows not to talk to me about
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                        If I am manager , HR would expect me to be responsible for behavior and performance of the people I am managing  , if I am not HR knows not to talk to me about it and they would need to find someone else or talk to the person itself.

                                        On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        I think it is a distinction without a purpose in the context of Scrum. The test to me is: what would I do differently if HR thinks they're a manager or not? The answer is nothing. 

                                        On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



                                        which i diverted to it's own thread:


                                        i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

                                        what's your take?

                                        salamat,
                                        mike mallete



                                      • Adam Sroka
                                        Good point.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                          Good point. 

                                          On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Bachan Anand <bachans@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          If I am manager , HR would expect me to be responsible for behavior and performance of the people I am managing  , if I am not HR knows not to talk to me about it and they would need to find someone else or talk to the person itself.


                                          On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          I think it is a distinction without a purpose in the context of Scrum. The test to me is: what would I do differently if HR thinks they're a manager or not? The answer is nothing. 

                                          On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



                                          which i diverted to it's own thread:


                                          i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

                                          what's your take?

                                          salamat,
                                          mike mallete




                                        • Joshua Partogi
                                          Hi Ron, I think most people to date think that a manager is someone who has people to manage. Very shallow definition of the word manager IMHO. Scrum changes
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                            Hi Ron,

                                            I think most people to date think that a manager is someone who has people to manage. Very shallow definition of the word manager IMHO. Scrum changes the rule of the game.

                                            On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:40 PM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Joshua,


                                            On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

                                            Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.

                                            Do you not see that when you go to someone whose job title includes the word "manager", they absolutely do not think that "everyone is a manager"?

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            www.XProgramming.com
                                            Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
                                            -- Mary Wortley Montagu

                                          • Mark Levison
                                            ... Perhaps, but we do have to bear in mind that we are mostly talking to people who use the old language for the word Manager. Cheers Mark
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                              On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Hi Ron,

                                              I think most people to date think that a manager is someone who has people to manage. Very shallow definition of the word manager IMHO. Scrum changes the rule of the game.

                                              Perhaps, but we do have to bear in mind that we are mostly talking to people who use the old language for the word Manager. 

                                              Cheers
                                              Mark 
                                               

                                              On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:40 PM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Joshua,


                                              On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

                                              Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.

                                              Do you not see that when you go to someone whose job title includes the word "manager", they absolutely do not think that "everyone is a manager"?

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
                                              -- Mary Wortley Montagu


                                            • RonJeffries
                                              Joshua, ... Yes, Scrum changes a lot. However, as we put Scrum in place, we need to communicate with people using words they understand. I think it would be
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                                Joshua,

                                                On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:17 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

                                                I think most people to date think that a manager is someone who has people to manage. Very shallow definition of the word manager IMHO. Scrum changes the rule of the game.

                                                Yes, Scrum changes a lot. However, as we put Scrum in place, we need to communicate with people using words they understand. I think it would be unwise to start saying "management" while meaning something most people do not take as management.

                                                Ron Jeffries
                                                If it is more than you need, it is waste. -- Andy Seidl

                                              • Eric Tiongson
                                                Add to that the old Development Team Lead title which loosely translates as the technical point of failure. That is - someone to blame when something goes
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 24, 2012
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                                                  Add to that the old "Development 
                                                   Team Lead" title which loosely translates as the technical point of failure.  That is - someone to blame when something goes wrong.  ;-)

                                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                                  On Oct 25, 2012, at 5:04 AM, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:

                                                   


                                                  I think Alan managed to hit the nail on the head. ;-) In our industry, the term "manager" is loaded with all kinds of nasty baggage, and is best avoided. It is similar to the selection of the term "Scrum Master". I believe Ken mentioned that he explicitly wanted to stay away from the term "Project Manager", as it also had negative connotations.

                                                  Mark

                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Bret Wortman <bret.wortman@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I'd be more comfortable calling SM a leadership role. It has nothing to do with rank or role in the company.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > Bret Wortman
                                                  > http://bretwortman.com/
                                                  > http://twitter.com/bretwortman
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Alan Dayley wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Manager, management and managerial are words with lots of history, baggage, if you will, of the wrong kind for Agile thinking. If I were to train and coach people that the ScrumMaster is a manager, I would have to be willing to fight all that baggage. I would expect many new ScrumMasters to start acting like a typical manager and many team members to start acting like the typical managed worker, both not good.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > For this reason alone it is dangerous to apply the label of manager to the ScrumMaster role.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Alan
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@... (mailto:mrmallete@...)> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > http://tinyurl.com/8jropew
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > which i diverted to it's own thread:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > http://tinyurl.com/9a8w2ow
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > what's your take?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > salamat,
                                                  > > > mike mallete
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >

                                                • Michael Mallete
                                                  to add, (and actually, the original context of this thing, sorry to miss that), educating people specially those who ve been in a traditional context for a
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 25, 2012
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                                                    to add, (and actually, the original context of this thing, sorry to miss that), educating people specially those who've been in a traditional context for a long time. we tend to use familiar words to make it easier for them to understand. unfortunately,  the mapping for the sm and managerial role is bad.

                                                    another is that it's a way to put some teeth on the role. which i believe just hide problems, e.g., Scrum Master lacks skill in influencing the organization, leadership, or the organization doesn't really know what they are getting into when they wanted to adopt scrum, etc.

                                                    salamat,
                                                    mike mallete

                                                    On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bachan Anand <bachans@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    If I am manager , HR would expect me to be responsible for behavior and performance of the people I am managing  , if I am not HR knows not to talk to me about it and they would need to find someone else or talk to the person itself.


                                                    On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    I think it is a distinction without a purpose in the context of Scrum. The test to me is: what would I do differently if HR thinks they're a manager or not? The answer is nothing. 

                                                    On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:



                                                    which i diverted to it's own thread:


                                                    i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

                                                    what's your take?

                                                    salamat,
                                                    mike mallete




                                                  • woynam
                                                    Oy. Let me throw a grenade into the fire. Quoting from Ken and Mike s Agile Software Development with Scrum (page 31): The Scrum Master is a new management
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Oct 25, 2012
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                                                      Oy. Let me throw a grenade into the fire. Quoting from Ken and Mike's 'Agile Software Development with Scrum' (page 31):

                                                      "The Scrum Master is a new management role introduced by Scrum...The Scrum Master represents management and the team to each other."

                                                      This is a bit confusing. It appears to state that the role is managerial, but is not a manager, given that the SM bridges between management and the team.

                                                      Clear as mud. I'd be curious to hear if Ken and Mike still believe the SM is a managerial role.

                                                      Mark

                                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > **
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hi Ron,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I think most people to date think that a manager is someone who has people
                                                      > > to manage. Very shallow definition of the word manager IMHO. Scrum changes
                                                      > > the rule of the game.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      > Perhaps, but we do have to bear in mind that we are mostly talking to
                                                      > people who use the old language for the word Manager.
                                                      >
                                                      > Cheers
                                                      > Mark
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:40 PM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >> **
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Joshua,
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>
                                                      > >> wrote:
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Do you not see that when you go to someone whose job title includes the
                                                      > >> word "manager", they absolutely do not think that "everyone is a manager"?
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Ron Jeffries
                                                      > >> www.XProgramming.com
                                                      > >> Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
                                                      > >> -- Mary Wortley Montagu
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Michael Mallete
                                                      Someone mentioned that he does mention this in his PSM courses and even appears in the PSM exam (the question whether SM is managerial role: answer is Yes!) I
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Oct 25, 2012
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                                                        Someone mentioned that he does mention this in his PSM courses and even appears in the PSM exam (the question whether SM is managerial role: answer is Yes!)

                                                        I personally would at least need to hear the reason why Ken teaches it this way rather than just taking it because he said so.

                                                        salamat,
                                                        mike mallete

                                                        On Thursday, October 25, 2012, woynam wrote:
                                                         


                                                        Oy. Let me throw a grenade into the fire. Quoting from Ken and Mike's 'Agile Software Development with Scrum' (page 31):

                                                        "The Scrum Master is a new management role introduced by Scrum...The Scrum Master represents management and the team to each other."

                                                        This is a bit confusing. It appears to state that the role is managerial, but is not a manager, given that the SM bridges between management and the team.

                                                        Clear as mud. I'd be curious to hear if Ken and Mike still believe the SM is a managerial role.

                                                        Mark

                                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > > **
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Hi Ron,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I think most people to date think that a manager is someone who has people
                                                        > > to manage. Very shallow definition of the word manager IMHO. Scrum changes
                                                        > > the rule of the game.
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        > Perhaps, but we do have to bear in mind that we are mostly talking to
                                                        > people who use the old language for the word Manager.
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers
                                                        > Mark
                                                        >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:40 PM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >> **
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> Joshua,
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>
                                                        > >> wrote:
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> Do you not see that when you go to someone whose job title includes the
                                                        > >> word "manager", they absolutely do not think that "everyone is a manager"?
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> Ron Jeffries
                                                        > >> www.XProgramming.com
                                                        > >> Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
                                                        > >> -- Mary Wortley Montagu
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >
                                                        >

                                                      • Jesse Houwing
                                                        On the training I received, not by Ken, it was clearly explained as follows, and I ll try to give an answer as close as to how it was formulated. It touches
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Oct 25, 2012
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                                                          On the training I received, not by Ken, it was clearly explained as follows, and I'll try to give an answer as close as to how it was formulated. It touches upon a lot of points previously touched upon.:

                                                          - The scrum master is a servant leader to the team. He's responsible for the planning of the ceremonies and to ensure that the right people are involved. He can of course delegate this to anyone, but it's his responsibility to make sure the meetings happen and the process is constantly followed and improved. (keywords: lead, support, organize)
                                                          - The scrum master is responsible to effect change in the organisation, teach, coach and if needed confront the Stakeholders, PO, team on the underlying principles of scrum. He's also responsible to make sure these people constantly follow and improve their way of being Agile, again preferably by servant leadership (keywords: effect change, vision, explain, coach, politics)
                                                          - And finally: the scrum master must remove impediments that cause the team to stall. Not by solving bugs by himself, or taking matters in his own hands, but by managing the issues in the organisation, the team (preferably by request) and 3rd parties (keywords: manage organisation, effect change, vision, politics)

                                                          All of these are skills normally attributed to a managerial role. Not in the form of line or project or people management, but a more of a change and organisational management level. I'd call that a managerial role. It's is however very important to stress the non lin, people and project management part of it.

                                                          Jesse

                                                          On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:


                                                          Someone mentioned that he does mention this in his PSM courses and even appears in the PSM exam (the question whether SM is managerial role: answer is Yes!)

                                                          I personally would at least need to hear the reason why Ken teaches it this way rather than just taking it because he said so.

                                                          salamat,
                                                          mike mallete


                                                          On Thursday, October 25, 2012, woynam wrote:
                                                           


                                                          Oy. Let me throw a grenade into the fire. Quoting from Ken and Mike's 'Agile Software Development with Scrum' (page 31):

                                                          "The Scrum Master is a new management role introduced by Scrum...The Scrum Master represents management and the team to each other."

                                                          This is a bit confusing. It appears to state that the role is managerial, but is not a manager, given that the SM bridges between management and the team.

                                                          Clear as mud. I'd be curious to hear if Ken and Mike still believe the SM is a managerial role.

                                                          Mark

                                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > **
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Hi Ron,
                                                          > >
                                                          > > I think most people to date think that a manager is someone who has people
                                                          > > to manage. Very shallow definition of the word manager IMHO. Scrum changes
                                                          > > the rule of the game.
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          > Perhaps, but we do have to bear in mind that we are mostly talking to
                                                          > people who use the old language for the word Manager.
                                                          >
                                                          > Cheers
                                                          > Mark
                                                          >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:40 PM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >> **
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> Joshua,
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>
                                                          > >> wrote:
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> Everyone in Scrum Team is a manager.
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> Do you not see that when you go to someone whose job title includes the
                                                          > >> word "manager", they absolutely do not think that "everyone is a manager"?
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> Ron Jeffries
                                                          > >> www.XProgramming.com
                                                          > >> Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
                                                          > >> -- Mary Wortley Montagu
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >
                                                          >




                                                        • Adam Sroka
                                                          The most effective leaders, in my experience, are more influential than powerful. IMO, nearly all of the organizational disfunctions that I run into as a coach
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Oct 25, 2012
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                                                            The most effective leaders, in my experience, are more influential than powerful. IMO, nearly all of the organizational disfunctions that I run into as a coach are the result of artificial hierarchies and the communication problems they cause up and down the chain. 

                                                            I could care less what you call the roles in your organization. Whatever you call them, asking good questions beats giving direction almost 100% of the time. 

                                                            On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Kevin Callahan <kcallahan@...> wrote:
                                                             

                                                            As a scrum master, I have no clout, I have influence. I work to build my credibility through relentless transparency and integrity. When I make a suggestion for a direction, people follow it or not because they trust me or not; I strive to always have earned that trust.


                                                            My definition of manager is someone who has organizational authority and explicit power. They can make decisions about the employment status of those that report to them: whether those people are hired, fired, and how much they're paid. 

                                                            A scrum master is not this kind of manager, and if someone who is this kind of manager is also taking on the title of scrum master, well, that's not scrum, that person is not in fact a scrum master, and there are a lot of extremely good reasons for that.

                                                            Feel free to further debate the semantics; I don't think many of the points are inaccurate or incorrect IF the factor of authority differentiated from influence is explicitly stated…

                                                            -kevin

                                                            On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Antony wrote:

                                                             

                                                            From what I have been told about this, Scrum Master is a managerial role towards the business but not towards the team. The reason for this is so s/he has the clout towards the business to overcome impediments.

                                                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Definitely not true. Scrum Master is a managerial role.


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                                                            Kevin Callahan
                                                            Scrum Master & Agile Coach
                                                            LiveWorld Inc.
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                                                          • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSP CSM PSM
                                                            +++++1 to Jesse s answer below. The SM is a manager role, in the sense that the SM manages the organization and team s implementation of Scrum, and has to
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Nov 20, 2012
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                                                              +++++1 to Jesse's answer below.

                                                              The SM is a manager role, in the sense that the SM manages the organization and team's implementation of Scrum, and has to operate on the managerial level to affect change. 

                                                              The SM is not a manager role in the sense that the SM has control, or HR functions *over* the people on the Scrum team.

                                                              So, the SM is a manager, but one with very little to no authority over people, and a lot of authority over process and impediment removal.

                                                              -------
                                                              Charles Bradley
                                                              http://www.ScrumCrazy.com




                                                              From: Jesse Houwing <jesse.houwing@...>
                                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 5:43 AM
                                                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Is Scrum Master a Managerial Role?



                                                              It's even one of the PSM-I certification questions. If I remember correctly, the answer is yes. Since the resolving of impediments requires leverage high enough in the organisation to actually effectuate change. But I guess it all comes down to the definition of manager.

                                                              The scrum master should not need to be a line manager in the organisation or a classic project manager, but he needs to be able to operate on the manager level. It's just a whole lot easier if you're considered one of the club, then when you're an outsider. 

                                                              So to go back to the other threads you started off of this, no need to be a project manager, line manager or other type of existing manager. But the Scrum master must have managerial skills, must be able to operate on that level and must be able to effectuate change.

                                                              A person with that set of skills is often classified as manager in many organisations. Within our organisation anyone who gets a promotion after Senior Consultant gets the title of Manager, regardless of what it is you actually manage. It just says you've proven to be able to operate on that level in a larger organisation.

                                                              Jesse

                                                              On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...> wrote:


                                                              a very interesting topic that started in another thread in linkedin scrum practitioners group:


                                                              which i diverted to it's own thread:


                                                              i say no. it makes it harder to grasp the concept of the role. rather, call it a coaching role.

                                                              what's your take?

                                                              salamat,
                                                              mike mallete







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